479 réponses à ce sujet

[papercut_ninja]

*sigh* It's one thing to have magic and dragons, that's just a part of the setting and we roll with it. But to claim that on this principle, all real world physics and biology are now irrelevant is just simply not true. We can still expect gravity to be around, tides, physiological needs like food and sleep, and so on.

 

But some of it are up for creative change at the discretion of the designers choosing...if they choose to change the laws of reality so that people can wield magic and that some people grow horns, then they can also choose to alter physiological limitations between men and women, they have chosen to do so and been consistent with it...roll with that too, it's not that hard.

[Nefla]

*sigh* It's one thing to have magic and dragons, that's just a part of the setting and we roll with it. But to claim that on this principle, all real world physics and biology are now irrelevant is just simply not true. We can still expect gravity to be around, tides, physiological needs like food and sleep, and so on.

Tell that to Corypheus and his floating temple ruins   (how the heck did we get down from there anyway?)

 

As for physics and biology, there's no way we should be able to break down stone walls with our shields, kill dragons and giants with our little swords and arrows. With magic, sure but there's already something definitely off about biology in Thedas.

[Kallas_br123]

But some of it are up for change at the creativity of the designers choosing...if they choose to change the laws of reality so that people can wield magic and that some people grow horns, then they can also choose to alter physiological limitations between men and women, they have chosen to do so and been consistent with it...live with it!

magic is explained by the existence of Lirium and fade, magic is metaphysics, not biology.

When you create a world, you do it as real as possible, even with the inclusion of magic or technology, some things do not change, you still have gravity, aging, need of food, sleep and similar things. Men and women are different, no matter what crazy feminist say, we are biologically different, the sole reason for players or NPCs have the same amount of strength and vitality of attributes is game mechanics, and not to discourage the creation of female characters.

[Kallas_br123]

Tell that to Corypheus and his floating temple ruins   (how the heck did we get down from there anyway?)

 

As for physics and biology, there's no way we should be able to break down stone walls with our shields, kill dragons and giants with our little swords and arrows. With magic, sure but there's already something definitely off about biology in Thedas.

tear down walls, throw enemies with air shield or sword blows, become invisible with stealth, all this is game mechanics.

 

Now slay dragons and giants, all that is alive could die, simple, hit it in the right place with the right and weapon.

 

and I have not read the dragon age  books but in some of them, dragons or giants are killed?

 

For even kill dragons or giants can be attributed to game mechanics,

[Nefla]

 

tear down walls, throw enemies with air shield or sword blows, become invisible with stealth, all this is game mechanics.

 

Now slay dragons and giants, all that is alive could die, simple, hit it in the right place with the right and weapon.

 

and I have not read the dragon age  books but in some of them, dragons or giants are killed?

 

For even kill dragons or giants can be attributed to game mechanics,

 

lol a real person couldn't even kill a bear with a sword, let alone dragons and giants.

[papercut_ninja]

 

magic is explained by the existence of Lirium and fade, magic is metaphysics, not biology.

When you create a world, you do it as real as possible, even with the inclusion of magic or technology, some things do not change, you still have gravity, aging, need of food, sleep and similar things. Men and women are different, no matter what crazy feminist say, we are biologically different, the sole reason for players or NPCs have the same amount of strength and vitality of attributes is game mechanics, and not to discourage the creation of female characters.

 

 

Blank statement without any substance...fantasy is about suspension of reality, otherwise the genre would be called non-fiction.

 

The question is not about the reality of our world, but about the consistency within the world of Thedas. All lore, mechanics and storytelling keeps up with the consistency that men and women have no or very small differences in physical limitations (far less different than in our world). You may not like it or agree with that design choice, but it is the biological reality of their world. Arguing about what feminists think and want is irrelevant to the discussion.

[TheOgre]

I'm with the ninja on this one

[Lumix19]

Just thought I'd point out that with regards to gender issues in the Qun their work with eugenics might breed out "problematic" individuals (as cruel as that sounds) so such issues might be quite rare these days. Of course that doesn't stop them arising in new converts to the Qun but still something worth thinking about.

[Kallas_br123]

Blank statement without any substance...fantasy is about suspension of reality, otherwise the genre would be called non-fiction.

 

The question is not about the reality of our world, but about the consistency within the world of Thedas. All lore, mechanics and storytelling keeps up with the consistency that men and women have no or very small differences in physical limitations (far less different than in our world). You may not like it or agree with that design choice, but it is the biological reality of their world. Arguing about what feminists think and want is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

dude is useless to argue, you believe what you want I believe in what I want, without a word of god, we will never know.

 

the two of ud are right and wrong at the same time without a confirmation.

[Kallas_br123]

lol a real person couldn't even kill a bear with a sword, let alone dragons and giants.

magic swords, magic in general.

 

and as I said I have not read the books, do not know if in the books someone comes to kill a dragon, or a giant, then as I said, i dont know if even the act of killing dragons or giant is not just game mechanics.

[Mirth]

I think many of us were confused because of the rigid and backwards impression we were given by Sten in DA:O and by all the Qunari in DA2. They seemed so cut and dry, so all or nothing (I mean you can't even have sex for love, you get "reprogrammed" for that right?). A person can't choose their job under the Qun, even if they would rather be something else, it seems like "choosing" to be a different gender is more extreme and would have been even less accepted, especially if the biological female was better at something else than she was at fighting (can she not become an aqun athlok in such a case? What if she wants to live as a man but doesn't want to be a soldier?). I definitely got the impression that personal desires didn't matter and "the will of the Qun" was everything. I mean Ketojan killed himself without question even though he didn't want to die because that's what the Qun required . Sten doesn't even seem to be able to comprehend that a biological female can fight. It would have been less confusing if he had assumed she was transgender. "oh you're an aqun athlok" rather than arguing in confused circles about how women can't fight. I hope this doesn't come across as aggressive or something weird, just trying to explain where my disconnect at least is coming from. (I don't know about others)

Sten certainly gives us a glimpse of the QUN, but it is "his" interpretation. He's singular in purpose, but not a mindless drone.

DA2 - again, we get a group of Qunari that are tightly and rigidly controlled by the Aristock, but it's "his" interpretation that is paramount. Likely due to circumstances.

Iron Bull - still believes, but his circumstances require that he be more flexible. It's only after the inquisitors influence that makes or breaks his beliefs.

My impression is that only "troublemakers" go to reeducation camps. The warrior cast, our primary exposure to the qunari and the Qun, are trained from an early age, disciplined and ridged, because you don't want a bunch of "touchy feely sensitive dudes" holding the line.

[AlanC9]

magic is explained by the existence of Lirium and fade, magic is metaphysics, not biology.
When you create a world, you do it as real as possible, even with the inclusion of magic or technology, some things do not change, you still have gravity, aging, need of food, sleep and similar things. Men and women are different, no matter what crazy feminist say, we are biologically different, the sole reason for players or NPCs have the same amount of strength and vitality of attributes is game mechanics, and not to discourage the creation of female characters.

This is a deeply silly argument. It's a demonstrable fact that at least some women in Thedas have been able to engage in physical combat at the highest level of competence. PC's aside, we have other party members, NPCs, and historical figures.

If you want to argue that this makes Thedas a bad setting, feel free. But this battle was lost before it began. DA:O had powerful female physical combatants and women in the armies. Every Bio setting ever has worked this way.

[In Exile]

not trying to be rude, because after all, it is your world. But why the Qunari, putting so much importance on efficiency, put a woman (biologically speaking) into the Antaam? (I believe that this is the word) When a woman is physically inferior than other male soldiers with the same training, seem to me much more compatible with their vision (as presented to the players until DA2) that they would place the trans individual in another function than a soldier.

 

Sorry bad english

 

That's now how it works. Even if it were true men, on average, where stronger than women, it does not mean that every man is stronger than every woman. Ignoring all the other weird ideas in your post. 

[X Equestris]

lol a real person couldn't even kill a bear with a sword, let alone dragons and giants.

It is possible, though extremely difficult and dangerous, to kill a bear with a sword. You would have been much more likely to use spears with special crossbars, though.

[papercut_ninja]

It is possible, though extremely difficult and dangerous, to kill a bear with a sword. You would have been much more likely to use spears with special crossbars, though.

 

Like with a bull, the tactic would be to tire it out until it collapses, and then stab it...difficult, but doable...and a hell of a lot easier to achieve as a team than by yourself.

[tmp7704]

Men and women are different, no matter what crazy feminist say, we are biologically different, the sole reason for players or NPCs have the same amount of strength and vitality of attributes is game mechanics, and not to discourage the creation of female characters.

No matter what the crazy MRAs say the "biological differences" come with enough of overleap there's no reason to enforce penalties/differences on entire genders. At the end of the day you play a character that's an individual, not the gender average.

Besides, "biological differences" are double edged sword. Be careful what you wish for, unless you're ok with your burly male human getting saddled with lower strength score than a dwarf woman because "realism".

[Kallas_br123]

This is a deeply silly argument. It's a demonstrable fact that at least some women in Thedas have been able to engage in physical combat at the highest level of competence. PC's aside, we have other party members, NPCs, and historical figures.

If you want to argue that this makes Thedas a bad setting, feel free. But this battle was lost before it began. DA:O had powerful female physical combatants and women in the armies. Every Bio setting ever has worked this way.

is not about the rest of thedas.

Some women are able to engage in combat and be extremely efficient at it, as aveline for example, she could probably kick the ass of alistair at any time.

The discussion about it is on the Qunari, a society that possibly start training soldiers in childhood, they would not spend resources for training of female soldiers who ultimately would not attain the same physical peak than a man. she would have the same or possibly better skill than him but not the same physical advantage. why spend resources in a person who may or may not be superior in ability than another, when you can simply train someone who would have almost 100% of cases the physical superiority.

[Kallas_br123]

No matter what the crazy MRAs say the "biological differences" come with enough of overleap there's no reason to enforce penalties/differences on entire genders. At the end of the day you play a character that's an individual, not the gender average.

Besides, "biological differences" are double edged sword. Be careful what you wish for, unless you're ok with your burly male human getting saddled with lower strength score than a dwarf woman because "realism".

the difference exists and it is considerable, do not believe look for male and female Olympic records, and look why the existence of male and female division in sports fights. men are superior physically there's no denying it.

 

on the dwarves, the discussion is about humans, not other humanoids, as I said above if other humanoid races obey the same human biological restrictions, it would not surprise me, but comparing with humans, is hard, as it is hard to say that a female dwarf would physically supirior than a human or not. its imposivel to state.

 

 

one more thing but I may be wrong but I remember reading that no woman was able to pass the officer courses of the Marines.

Modifié par Kallas_br123, 14 février 2015 - 07:36 .

[darth_hel]

the difference exists and it is considerable, do not believe look for male and female Olympic records, and look why the existence of male and female division in sports fights. men are superior physically there's no denying it.

 

on the dwarves, the discussion is about humans, not other humanoids, as I said above if other humanoid races obey the same human biological restrictions, it would not surprise me, but comparing with humans, is hard, as it is hard to say that a female dwarf would physically supirior than a human or not. its imposivel to state.

 

 

one more thing but I may be wrong but I remember reading that no woman was able to pass the officer courses of the Marines.

 

The best men tend to beat the best women, however having an army tends to require large enough groups that there would undoubtably be enough overlap so that some women would be an asset.

 

Not to mention that our olympic records don't tell us a damned thing about the status of Thedas. There's no reason to assume human women are weaker on the whole, let alone make any assumptions about Qunari women which are an entirely different race.

[papercut_ninja]

the difference exists and it is considerable, do not believe look for male and female Olympic records, and look why the existence of male and female division in sports fights. men are superior physically there's no denying it.

 

on the dwarves, the discussion is about humans, not other humanoids, as I said above if other humanoid races obey the same human biological restrictions, it would not surprise me, but comparing with humans, is hard, as it is hard to say that a female dwarf would physically supirior than a human or not. its imposivel to state.

 

 

one more thing but I may be wrong but I remember reading that no woman was able to pass the officer courses of the Marines.

 

When exactly was the last olympic games of Thedas held?

 

...and weren't you talking about Qunari, why are we talking about humans?

[Get Magna Carter]

The question of Krem can be resolved by saying that Krem did not "choose" to be a man but had been born a man in a woman's body 

 

The main question remaining regarding "Sten's" dialogue in Origins is why did "Sten" not consider that Leiliana may be in the same category as Tallis?

 

(obviously the real world explanation is that Tallis hadn't been created and the concept of such operatives for the Qunari had not been considered)

the 2 possible answers that occur to me are

1) "Sten" was wrong - he was so hung up on his views of Grey Wardens being soldiers he assumed anyone travelling with them must be also

 

2) Not everyone following a belief has the exact same interpretation of the belief.  It is possible that at that time, "Sten" was following a very strict version of the Qun and did not mention to foreigners the looser interpretations (which he did not approve of) from some other Qunari (Iron Bull on the other hand follows a much looser version and had no reason to mention the minority of Qunari following stricter versions)

[Kallas_br123]

When exactly was the last olympic games of Thedas held?

 

...and weren't you talking about Qunari, why are we talking about humans?

there is no Olympics. that part was in response to: No matter what the crazy MRAs say the "biological differences" come with enough of overleap there's the reason to enforce penalties / differences on entire genders

 

and to be honest I do not know when the conversation turned on specifically humans 

[Ieldra]

The question of Krem can be resolved by saying that Krem did not "choose" to be a man but had been born a man in a woman's body

To me, this sounds completely silly. The term "man" or "woman", "male" or "female" denotes the physical primarily, everything else is a cultural association. You are a woman if and only if you are biologically female and human (may apply to human-like races on Thedas). Your culture should not look down on you if you behave in opposition to cultural norms because you feel you're in the wrong type of body, but that doesn't change the facts. You may be able to change your biology, and then - and only then - you have become a man. I'm all for being able to change your nature, and I'm 100% in support of "live and let live", but you can't ignore biology, and you shouldn't twist language as if biology didn't matter.

[papercut_ninja]

there is no Olympics.

 

Well it would be interesting if there was...

 

The dwarves would try to rig every event, the templars would get caught in drug testing, mages would cheat with blood magic and the qunari would simply state that they won no matter what happens because they have no concept of losing...

[Nefla]

It is possible, though extremely difficult and dangerous, to kill a bear with a sword. You would have been much more likely to use spears with special crossbars, though.

Now lets upgrade that to a flying, fire breathing dragon and see how we do...