479 réponses à ce sujet

[papercut_ninja]

To me, this sounds completely silly. The term "man" or "woman", "male" or "female" denotes the physical primarily, everything else is a cultural association. You are a woman if and only if you are biologically female and human (may apply to human-like races on Thedas). Your culture should not look down on you if you behave in opposition to cultural norms because you feel you're in the wrong type of body, but that doesn't change the facts. You may be able to change your biology, and then - and only then - you have become a man. I'm all for being able to change your nature, and I'm 100% in support of "live and let live", but you can't ignore biology, and you shouldn't twist language as if biology didn't matter.

 

...and what is there to say the the Qun would use biology over culture for purpose of conceptualization, the Qun is after all, a cultural principle...

[BSpud]

I love how any random man is given a free pass to do reality-defying things and stand above the average in fiction, yet women have to adhere to "realism" unless there's a highly specific reason.

[Nefla]

magic swords, magic in general.
 
and as I said I have not read the books, do not know if in the books someone comes to kill a dragon, or a giant, then as I said, i dont know if even the act of killing dragons or giant is not just game mechanics.

I have only read one of the books (the stolen throne) and in it Rowan (a woman) fights alongside Loghain and Maric without a hitch just the same as in the games so...there you go.

[Nefla]

I love how any random man is given a free pass to do reality-defying things and stand above the average in fiction, yet women have to adhere to "realism" unless there's a highly specific reason.

As long as it's a man doing it, anything is believable. A 98lb 5' tall Japanese man beats a 300lb 6'9" burly Norwegian man in a boxing match and no one bats an eye. "The small guy had superior skill, training, speed, etc...that's why he won" but then you turn around and have a woman of undetermined size and strength and she couldn't possibly be a fighter at all because..."realism!"

[Dean_the_Young]

 

 

Well, I guess I have no real choice but to accept what you say. Since you are here, can you explain the other contradictions betwenn the Qun as presented in DAI and the Qun as presented in previous accounts? I'm really curious how it went from "sex for procreation purposes only" to "sex whenever you have the urge" for example. 

 

 

 

I don't think they ever said that either. From what I remember yee long years ago, the Dev comment was more along the lines of 'sex isn't used for inter-personal affection,' not 'sex was for procreation purposes only.' The later was more a fan-interpretation of the comments, since to a lot of people the only obvious alternative to not having sex because of personal affection was sex for procreation.

[Ieldra]

...and what is there to say the the Qun would use biology over culture for purpose of conceptualization, the Qun is after all, a cultural principle...

The Qun may do so, but this is clearly intended as a real-world parallel, and our terms are not so conceptualized, no matter how much some people would like to ignore that. By all means, invent new terms that fit the situation, but our existing terms denote the physical primarily. At least, in any culture I have sufficient knowledge of.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

 

It is a quote. It is part of how he begins the discussion with you about it. He says, "I don't understand. You look like a woman." 

 

 

It might be the boob-plates. Krem and Cassandra don't wear boob plates- maybe they'd not look like women to Sten.

[In Exile]

To me, this sounds completely silly. The term "man" or "woman", "male" or "female" denotes the physical primarily, everything else is a cultural association. You are a woman if and only if you are biologically female and human (may apply to human-like races on Thedas). Your culture should not look down on you if you behave in opposition to cultural norms because you feel you're in the wrong type of body, but that doesn't change the facts. You may be able to change your biology, and then - and only then - you have become a man. I'm all for being able to change your nature, and I'm 100% in support of "live and let live", but you can't ignore biology, and you shouldn't twist language as if biology didn't matter.

 

No, they don't. There are scientific terms of gender but gender isn't strictly speaking binary - that's why we use shorthands that represent our cultural human view. The most common definition of a "female" tends to do with reproductive allocation but even that isn't universal in nature. The idea of "male" and "female" is a decidedly human cultural invention and only exists as a category (in our opinion) because we impose it on nature. 

 

It's the same problem as that faces taxonomy generally. 

 

The fact that we divide humans based on what we consider to be a cluster of reproductive features instead of the shape of our feet is entirely a cultural artefact, though it does correspond to features of our environment and circumstances. 

[In Exile]

The Qun may do so, but this is clearly intended as a real-world parallel, and our terms are not so conceptualized, no matter how much some people would like to ignore that. By all means, invent new terms that fit the situation, but our existing terms denote the physical primarily. At least, in any culture I have sufficient knowledge of.

 

Again, they don't. See this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia....g/wiki/Gender. 

 

Our real world constructs are substantially more complicated, despite the way they're used by average people with little exposure to these various fields of study. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

How is the Qun suddenly safe and benign in Inquisition?

 

Alright, yes, Iron Bull claims that the Qun would accept Krem as a man because he identifies himself as one and "acts" like one, something that Sten obviously didn't see in a female Warden. That's not a retcon, its new information being bought to our attention and giving us a greater understanding of Qunari society. Even with that new lore the Qun is hardly PC now. Iron Bull flat out tells us that under the Qun most of the companions would be dead or brainwashed. Solas, Dorian and Vivienne would all be turned into Saarebas without question, Cole would be dead, Varric and Sera would question to much and have their minds broken by qamek and Cassandra would either forced to give up warrior lifestyle or be brainwashed to accept a male identity.  

 

Just because the Qun is understanding towards transsexuals doesn't mean that it's no longer a medieval totalitarian police state that forces it's people to accept whether occupation the Tamassrans judge to be best suited for them. Add that to the dehumanization of mages, the brainwashing, the spies, the horrific war in Seheron and the complete absence of anyone trying to reform the system (even Tevinter has people trying to change it) and I still see a strange and dark grey empire that's hardly good or safe.

[Kallas_br123]

Again, they don't. See this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia....g/wiki/Gender. 

 

Our real world constructs are substantially more complicated, despite the way they're used by average people with little exposure to these various fields of study. 

First, the link you provided does not go any articles.

 

Second, this history that gender is a social construct ... vo not call complete untruth but ...

 

just food for mind but this guy here is the father of gender theory as a social construct http://en.wikipedia....wiki/John_Money

Note that the guy was a pedophile and the case in which he wrote his thesis committed suicide.

[Ieldra]

No, they don't. There are scientific terms of gender but gender isn't strictly speaking binary - that's why we use shorthands that represent our cultural human view. The most common definition of a "female" tends to do with reproductive allocation but even that isn't universal in nature. The idea of "male" and "female" is a decidedly human cultural invention and only exists as a category (in our opinion) because we impose it on nature. 

 

It's the same problem as that faces taxonomy generally. 

 

The fact that we divide humans based on what we consider to be a cluster of reproductive features instead of the shape of our feet is entirely a cultural artefact, though it does correspond to features of our environment and circumstances. 

Yes, they do. I said "our terms denote the physical primarily", and that remains true even if nature does not correspond 100% to that categorization (BTW, I did not claim that such a perfect correspondence existed). Also, you speak as if culture is independent from biology. If that's so, please tell me why every human culture has terms for "man" or "woman" that distinguish people almost perfectly along the lines of our species' sexual dimorphism? Tell me why there is NO culture that uses your example of the shape of our feet or something similarly irrelevant? Our biology results in some fundamental constants in our lives, and language tends to reflect some of that. We may attempt to change that - invent new terms and/or escape our biological legacy physically. As I said, I'm all for that, but it can't simply be ignored.

[AppalachianApex]

Have to say I agree with everything you've said.

I love Inquisition but I cannot help but feel that Bioware, in an effort to both include everyone and not offend anyone, actually ended up neutering a lot of what made the last two games (yes, even DA2) so great.

 

This issue is not just limited to storytelling either, though that is certainly it's biggest flaw.

 

We get half a dozen a-gendered haircuts and a dozen buzz cuts shared between both genders. Why? Because it includes everyone and doesn't offend anyone, the downside is that the hair options are universally regarded as pretty sucky.

 

We get every single member of the Inquisition going to a Royal Orlesian Ball in matching red pantsuits. Why? Includes everyone, doesn't offend anyone. Downside is that it limits immersion and one's ability to role-play.

 

We get forced into those hideous dreaded pajamas anytime we're at Skyhold. Why? Because those dreaded pajamas are safely gender-neutral. Again, includes everyone and doesn't offend anyone.

 

Seeing a pattern here?

 

Again, I love Inquisition and I love how Bioware is making the games more inclusive and representative of more people. But in trying to not offend *anyone,* you might just end up disappointing *everyone.*

[In Exile]

Yes, they do. I said "our terms denote the physical primarily", and that remains true even if nature does not correspond 100% to that categorization (BTW, I did not claim that such a perfect correspondence existed). Also, you speak as if culture is independent from biology. If that's so, please tell me why every human culture has terms for "man" or "woman" that distinguish people almost perfectly along the lines of our species' sexual dimorphism? Tell me why there is NO culture that uses your example of the shape of our feet or something similarly irrelevant? Our biology results in some fundamental constants in our lives, and language tends to reflect some of that. We may attempt to change that - invent new terms and/or escape our biological legacy physically. As I said, I'm all for that, but it can't simply be ignored.

 

Except that our terms don't correspond primarily to physicality. They're fundamentally and inseparably bound up with cultural assumptions about what it means to be a "proper" man or woman, which includes assumptions about behaviour, appearance, strength, height, belief, modes of thought, etc. The ultimate demarcating criterion is supposed to be genitalia, but that's not exhaustive of the concept. 

 

I didn't say that culture is "independent" from biology. That's a stupid and meaningless statement to begin with, so it would be strange if I did say it. What I said was that our interpretation of our biology is impossible to separate from our culture. Just compare the view of humanity in 3rd century B.C.E. China with 21st Century France. Or even compare what an atheist in Canada views humanity as vs. a Jehova's witness in the Eastern US. What we see as "human", and what significance we attribute to our physical features varies based on our culture. 

 

There's a difference - an important difference - between recognizing sexual dimorphism and ascribing value to it. The absurd example I used - and it could easily have been something more complicated like sexual orientation as being representative of identity - is something that's a cultural product.  

 

edit:

Not to mention that you're wrong about the universality of gender identity. Our world is quite mono-cultured at this point, but there are non-binary views on gender: http://en.wikipedia....er_identities. 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I've nver known anyone that didn't know their gender identity at a young age, if they were to have one at all. I assume Qunari are the same, and by the time they are old enough to begin training, they know what gender they are and, no that is NOT exclusively determined by the body.

 

Yes the majority with a male body will be boys/men and, the majority with a female body will be girls/women but not everyone. Qunari know this and deal with it.

[TKavatar]

Are there any male Tamassrans? Otherwise all the female Qunari are going to be left out while the males get to bang whenever they want release. 

[Ieldra]

Again, they don't. See this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia....g/wiki/Gender. 

 

Our real world constructs are substantially more complicated, despite the way they're used by average people with little exposure to these various fields of study. 

What you are referring to is a very specialized use in the context of social sciences (which always had a regrettable tendency to treat biology as irrelevant, so I'm skeptical to start with). That terminology does not correspond with everyday use of the terms, and anyway I do not find the idea of "gender as a social construct" convincing in the first place. I guess we should agree to disagree here, since I do not know why the social sciences found it useful to create their specialized terms and I don't think I'll find the motivation to read up on 60 years of the history of the field. Let's just say that I refuse to believe that the fact our gender identities correspond almost perfectly with our sexual dimorphism is a cultural artifact, not without a great deal of evidence that this actually is so and that the idea that it isn't isn't just an ideological conceit.

[Ieldra]

Except that our terms don't correspond primarily to physicality. They're fundamentally and inseparably bound up with cultural assumptions about what it means to be a "proper" man or woman, which includes assumptions about behaviour, appearance, strength, height, belief, modes of thought, etc. The ultimate demarcating criterion is supposed to be genitalia, but that's not exhaustive of the concept.

The cultural associations are adjuncts, as indicated by your example itself. We occasionally say things like "You're not a man", but what we mean is actually "not a proper man", in implicit acknowledgement that the term itself may have cultural connotations, but denotes the physical primarily and needs a qualifier in this context. We drop the qualifier only because the context usually makes it obvious.

 

In other words cultures have ideas what external traits should be associated with "man" or "woman" as a cultural norm, but there is usually little ambiguity about what the terms actually mean.

[Ieldra]

 

There's a difference - an important difference - between recognizing sexual dimorphism and ascribing value to it. The absurd example I used - and it could easily have been something more complicated like sexual orientation as being representative of identity - is something that's a cultural product. 

Indeed. And all I'm saying is that those ascribed values are extrinsic to the terms themselves. If I speak of a woman in an ideologically neutral descriptive context, I mean a "biologically female human" without any of the ideas associated by my culture. "Gender identity" is a set of ideas, and having the gender identity "woman" does not make you one. It just makes it desirable for you to be treated as one. If you're biologically a man and have the gender identity "woman", I may refer to you as a trans-woman (that would be the correct term, right?) but using the term "woman" is...well....wrong.

[Ryzaki]

How is the Qun suddenly safe and benign in Inquisition?

 

Alright, yes, Iron Bull claims that the Qun would accept Krem as a man because he identifies himself as one and "acts" like one, something that Sten obviously didn't see in a female Warden. That's not a retcon, its new information being bought to our attention and giving us a greater understanding of Qunari society. Even with that new lore the Qun is hardly PC now. Iron Bull flat out tells us that under the Qun most of the companions would be dead or brainwashed. Solas, Dorian and Vivienne would all be turned into Saarebas without question, Cole would be dead, Varric and Sera would question to much and have their minds broken by qamek and Cassandra would either forced to give up warrior lifestyle or be brainwashed to accept a male identity.  

 

Just because the Qun is understanding towards transsexuals doesn't mean that it's no longer a medieval totalitarian police state that forces it's people to accept whether occupation the Tamassrans judge to be best suited for them. Add that to the dehumanization of mages, the brainwashing, the spies, the horrific war in Seheron and the complete absence of anyone trying to reform the system (even Tevinter has people trying to change it) and I still see a strange and dark grey empire that's hardly good or safe.

 

Because god forbid even something negative have semi positive aspects. It must all be bad apparently or it's soft or something.

[Steelcan]

Well this debate has gone in a trajectory of "well above my pay grade"

[DementedSheep]

Have to say I agree with everything you've said.

I love Inquisition but I cannot help but feel that Bioware, in an effort to both include everyone and not offend anyone, actually ended up neutering a lot of what made the last two games (yes, even DA2) so great.

 

This issue is not just limited to storytelling either, though that is certainly it's biggest flaw.

 

We get half a dozen a-gendered haircuts and a dozen buzz cuts shared between both genders. Why? Because it includes everyone and doesn't offend anyone, the downside is that the hair options are universally regarded as pretty sucky.

 

We get every single member of the Inquisition going to a Royal Orlesian Ball in matching red pantsuits. Why? Includes everyone, doesn't offend anyone. Downside is that it limits immersion and one's ability to role-play.

 

We get forced into those hideous dreaded pajamas anytime we're at Skyhold. Why? Because those dreaded pajamas are safely gender-neutral. Again, includes everyone and doesn't offend anyone.

 

Seeing a pattern here?

 

Again, I love Inquisition and I love how Bioware is making the games more inclusive and representative of more people. But in trying to not offend *anyone,* you might just end up disappointing *everyone.*

Yeah, I'm seeing a pattern of a lack of variety and quality with models available to the player. I know its fun to blame everything you don't like on the dreaded SJWs nowadays but you're making the assumption that buzcuts and beige pajamas are some weird attempt to be inclusive and frankly that's a pretty big leap. It was more than likely a resource issue. Buzz cuts are a lot easier to make than other hairstyles, especially compared to long hair. Tweaking a model and design to fit both genders is easier than designing and modelling something completely different. 

[Ieldra]

How is the Qun suddenly safe and benign in Inquisition?

 

Alright, yes, Iron Bull claims that the Qun would accept Krem as a man because he identifies himself as one and "acts" like one, something that Sten obviously didn't see in a female Warden. That's not a retcon, its new information being bought to our attention and giving us a greater understanding of Qunari society. Even with that new lore the Qun is hardly PC now. Iron Bull flat out tells us that under the Qun most of the companions would be dead or brainwashed. Solas, Dorian and Vivienne would all be turned into Saarebas without question, Cole would be dead, Varric and Sera would question to much and have their minds broken by qamek and Cassandra would either forced to give up warrior lifestyle or be brainwashed to accept a male identity.  

 

Just because the Qun is understanding towards transsexuals doesn't mean that it's no longer a medieval totalitarian police state that forces it's people to accept whether occupation the Tamassrans judge to be best suited for them. Add that to the dehumanization of mages, the brainwashing, the spies, the horrific war in Seheron and the complete absence of anyone trying to reform the system (even Tevinter has people trying to change it) and I still see a strange and dark grey empire that's hardly good or safe.

This is, of course, completely true.

 

Nonetheless, there is the impression that Bioware is trying to make the Qun look better. The narrative impact of the reinterpretation and the presence of a somewhat likeable character who supports the Qun for most of the game combines to create that impression. Meanwhile, the ideological opposition - the Tevinter Imperium - gets its image as the land of moustache-twirling villainy heightened by having likeable characters who distance themselves from its evil and the presence of a few new villains.

 

For those like me who like the Imperium minus the slavery and the human sacrifice but oppose the very fundamentals of the Qun, this looks as if the story is against us.

[Steelcan]

 

For those like me who like the Imperium minus the slavery and the human sacrifice but oppose the very fundamentals of the Qun, this looks as if the story is against us.

Now this I can comment on

 

I think that they are setting this up because they plan on having Tevinter fall, soon I would imagine.  This is obviously pure speculation, but I imagine the next game will be dealing with the Qunari invasion of White Thedas after conquering Black Thedas.  This would let them place a story in the North, ie the war zone between the two, and conveniently handwave away issues such as Circles in the South which would be likely pointless since they'd be deploying mages to battles and so. 

 

The main storyline might revolve around finding an equalizing weapon against the Qunari, leading us to investigate ancient elven magic, and so on...

[darth_hel]

This is, of course, completely true.

 

Nonetheless, there is the impression that Bioware is trying to make the Qun look better. The narrative impact of the reinterpretation and the presence of a somewhat likeable character who supports the Qun for most of the game combines to create that impression. Meanwhile, the ideological opposition - the Tevinter Imperium - gets its image as the land of moustache-twirling villainy heightened by having likeable characters who distance themselves from its evil and the presence of a few new villains.

 

For those like me who like the Imperium minus the slavery and the human sacrifice but oppose the very fundamentals of the Qun, this looks as if the story is against us.

 

Dorian understands that there are problems with Tevinter, but he still believes there is something worth saving about it. He doesn't distance himself from its evil so much as believing that the evil about it should be changed.

 

The Qun however isn't whitewashed, Iron Bull is cofused as to whether he even wants the Qun to govern all of Thedas. He admits that many in the Inquisition would not do well under the Qun. Just because the Qun isn't bad for everyone doesn't mean it would be a good system to live under.

 

If anything, the way the game seemed to me was that Tevinter has a chance of change with both Maevaris and Dorian representing those who do want to make the Tevinter society better. Meanwhile, the Qun may be ok for some but its still extremely strict, you either accept it or you don't but reform will not be possible. As such, the Qun may be the greater evil because there is no chance of fixing its issues.

 

Even the major current Tevinter enemy wasn't some mustache twirling enemy, he was a man trying to save his son at any cost. His actions were evil but his motivation was understandable.