31 réponses à ce sujet

[SofaJockey]

[Posted in Scuttlebutt (no spoilers) as there are indeed no spoilers and the subject affects more than those offering feedback]

 

Following David Gaider's recent post, an open question is available to us:

 

"As to whether the forum could also be used for the Community team to communicate with the fans more -- by all means, let them know what you think should happen. I imagine that's information the Community Manager would be interested to hear."

 

I'm uncertain what's being asked for, here.

 

There was a few of us who took part in the forum on our own time -- myself, Allan, John Epler, and maybe a handful of others. If we've stopped doing so, it's for our own individual reasons. Nobody told us to post, and nobody told us to stop.

 

Even when we did post, it was rarely as a means of explaining what we intended to do and then looking for feedback. I tried that occasionally, but generally even when I intended for my posts to be informational I mostly ended up getting drawn into arguments where I was forced to defend my position. Which you might think was useful, but usually that was not the case, considering it was most often against people with a particular axe to grind or who had a very set agenda regarding the kind of game they wanted to see...which is fine for them to have, but unhelpful when it has no relation to the game I'm actually making. Fans might pretend a project can be everything to all people, but designers do not have that luxury.

 

Insofar as "acknowledging mistakes" goes, there are always mistakes in every project -- things we think could be done better, or were just flat-out bad ideas, and we know why they happened the way they did far better than anyone. We had our own ideas about them even before the game was shipped. The forum is a great place for getting feedback (on mistakes as well as the things we did right -- we don't only look for the former), but we look for that kind of feedback from multiple places. The discussion regarding what we're going to do about them is going to be an internal one, however, and always has. Eventually that will get communicated out to the fans as things get decided, and maybe some of that will occur here? I'm not sure. Mostly these forums exist for the fans to talk to each other.

 

As to whether the forum could also be used for the Community team to communicate with the fans more -- by all means, let them know what you think should happen. I imagine that's information the Community Manager would be interested to hear.

 

There have been a few threads on this matter before.

 

The constructive thing to do, is to see how communication could be done that's helpful for the forum community and not onerous on the BioWare community team.

 

This thread is not a demand of the BioWare community team to take part in the thread,

but if we come up with something useful, they can make their own decision 

 

(and if this thread quickly descends into snark, that I guess that is an answer too... )

 

I'd like to see the forum utilised for more useful communication, so what do you reckon people? How?

[nashiem]

apparently if they don't like what you say they lock the topic that is how

[DragonKingReborn]

A difficult question.  One without an obvious and clean answer, too, I would have thought.

 

I just did a quick sweep of the "Feedback" section of the forum and the first 5 pages contained two threads (1 on page 1, and 1 on page 5) with Bioware employee posts in them.  If Bioware say they are monitoring feedback, I certainly believe them but some - especially those who have larger issues with the game - find that hard to believe with so little evidence of monitoring.  Seeing a few posts along the lines of "this feedback is helpful, thanks", or "not sure what you're asking for here, can you elaborate?" might - stress might - go some way to dialling down the vitriol that many devs report when coming here and makes for such a fractious and uneven experience for forum members.  Knowing that a Bioware dev who presumably has a direct line to people that can affect change in the series going forward has seen a thread on an issue and read it to the extent they felt a reply was warranted is actually all a number of irritated posters have asked for.

 

Before it descended into abject stupidity the "PC Community Concerns" thread was mostly just, "why aren't Bioware talking to us?"  It seems to me that a few Bioware posts throughout the boards, even if they are only variations on "yes, we are watching" might be helpful.  Still, that pre-supposes there are devs who have that kind of spare time while at work.

[Shechinah]

(to nashiem) In most cases, it is not about what you are saying but how you are saying it.

[X Equestris]

It would be helpful if people here would avoid trying to grind their axes whenever people from Bioware do try to engage us in conversation.

[Jawzzus]

Didn't even make it one post.

[Lebanese Dude]

Language.

 

If people want to create a thread about a certain topic, avoid insulting BioWare employees and their products especially in the thread title.

 

That's probably all that needs to be done.

[Nimlowyn]

I don't know. I think, for whatever reason, some people have misconstrued developer involvement on the forums as customer service. It seems to me that developers come here to have fun interacting with fans, and then get demands (and/or abuse) put on them. If I worked at Bioware I wouldn't come here either; the relationship seems too easy to misunderstand. 

 

If Bioware decides its worth it to have an official taskforce that engages in customer service activities on the forums, that is up to them to decide. While I'd always enjoy more developer interaction because I enjoy their insights and am a fan of their games, the level that they do so is up to them. They're busy making the games I like. I'm happy with periodic updates about patches and things. If I'm having a problem, there's a customer service line I can use. If I'm unhappy with a product, well, I'm responsible for my purchases and can return it or whatever. 

[wolfsite]

Would have to agree that when employees do post they do tend to get singled out and get more or less abused, by people trying to get them to type something they could use against them, being antagonistic for the sake of it, or just being....well... I'll use the word unhelpful.

 

Last time Bioware staff were on a number people just refused to believe what they would say or keep accusing them of "not getting there fans".  It was a rather hostile environment for them.

 

Again I don't want to label everyone here like that but there were enough of these types of people to push them away.

[Jawzzus]

Another problem that discourages, other then them getting attacked almost every time (probably why Allan hasn't been around since his surgery, I could be wrong), is that a lot of people seem to take anything and everything they say as gospel and spread it around.  How many website 'articles' were made just after Allan or David Gaider made some comment on here, and a journalist ran off to post it all over saying it was fact?  I can remember at least 4, and I didn't start visiting BSN until middle of 2014.

[SofaJockey]

Wrote this a few days back, so throwing this in:

 

- - -

 

I guess there are three(four) types of things that might require a forum dialogue: 

• Bugs
• Features not currently included (different PC mechanics / Pyjamas / Chest / Hair etc)
• Ongoing support e.g. for multiplayer
• Off limits

Bugs

 

We don't want to replace EA Answers as a bug tracking mechanism, we have lives too... (checks no. of posts made, cough)

 

However, sharing information about any 'big ticket bugs' might be useful.

e.g. The DAMP Key Glitch:

• When does it seem to happen?
• Who is affected?
• Is it on BioWare's things to do list?
• Are there any workarounds.

Just sorting that out with community managers would be really useful.

The forum was just trying to figure it out by trial and error when it first occurred.

 

Features not currently included

 

So stuff like: (different PC mechanics / Pyjamas / Chest / Hair etc) 

 

These are the kinds of things that BioWare are clearly not going to detail while in-build.

But it could again be useful if their status is quantified with no promises.

 

Example:

 

There's a long running thread on DAMP text chat.

I think it would be useful to understand:

• It's probably never going to happen
• Back-burner
• Looking at it
• 'Soon' 

Even these broad responses, and only to big ticket items, would help this forum.

Even 'no, that is not planned' is helpful.

 

Ongoing support e.g. for multiplayer

 

This interaction already happens to some extent,

it would be interesting to know what make a thread feel safe for a dev to post in it,

even if it's just their opinion on a build without having someone jump down their neck.

 

Off limits

 

Might also be useful to pin what isn't going to get addressed by devs/community management:

• DLC leaks
• Patch leaks
• Next DA leaks
• etc etc

 

Summary

 

Finding a way to share and seek some clarification on big-ticket Q&A would alleviate some tensions

be informative, and just get the online community a bit more on-side.

[pdusen]

apparently if they don't like what you say they lock the topic that is how

Nice. That was an excellent demonstration of how _not_ to communicate with the team.

[Realmzmaster]

Developers come to the forums sometimes because they want to not because they have to come. The forums are basically set up for the gamers to converse with each other. The times the developers do come to the forums it usually begins as a constructive discussion but quickly descends into posters trying to engage in arguments with them.

 

I once made the mistake of posting in one of the threads that Bioware was not listening to the gamers on a particular issue. Allan quickly responded to that post to show that he was indeed lsitening. I ate my own words and apologized .to Allan and the team.

 

I have had other posts responded to by John and Mike on particular issues. Not because they had to but because they wanted to respond.

 

The developers do not have to visit these forums, but when they do it never seems to result in a constructive discussion. So they tend to stay away and let the Community Manager sort through the rubble to find the nuggets that can be relayed back to the developers.

 

I know the developers have thick skins when it comes to the posts, but I remember the atmosphere after DA2 released and the ME3 ending. It was toxic from naming calling to asking for firings. One developers stated an opinion about combat and was receiving death threats. And posters wonder why developers do not frequent the forums?

 

The only way that the forums are going to have a positive influence and entice the developers to want to dialog with us is to tone down  the emotions and engage in discussion not personal attacks. 

 

It is easy for me to personally say what I want in the game, but developers have to listen to a lot of feedback (some good, some not so good) for a lot of like me and not like me and still produce a game that the developers envision.

 

All of this has to be done in context of making a good (if not great game) that will make a profit for the company while keeping the team gainfully employed.

[Darkly Tranquil]

What about a periodic Q&A thing? Users could submit a question, which the community managers can choose from to take the dev team and get an answer or comment, which is then posted on the forum. Obviously there would have to be restrictions on the types of questions they will answer due to confidentiality and so forth, but getting feedback and thoughts from the devs really helps build understanding about the development process for players, which in turn should make their expectations about what the devs can deliver more realistic. I have always found David Gaider's Tumblr blog very informative about the constraints and challenges of the design process, and I think that sharing more of that knowledge with the player base would build better understanding, allowing players and devs to communicate more constructively.

[Lebanese Dude]

What about a periodic Q&A thing? Users could submit a question, which the community managers can choose from to take the dev team and get an answer or comment, which is then posted on the forum. Obviously there would have to be restrictions on the types of questions they will answer due to confidentiality and so forth, but getting feedback and thoughts from the devs really helps build understanding about the development process for players, which in turn should make their expectations about what the devs can deliver more realistic. I have always found David Gaider's Tumblr blog very informative about the constraints and challenges of the design process, and I think that sharing more of that knowledge with the player base would build better understanding, allowing players and devs to communicate more constructively.

 

I like this idea.

[SofaJockey]

What about a periodic Q&A thing? ...

 

I like it too, more so than just giving it a 'like'...

[Nimlowyn]

What about a periodic Q&A thing? Users could submit a question, which the community managers can choose from to take the dev team and get an answer or comment, which is then posted on the forum. Obviously there would have to be restrictions on the types of questions they will answer due to confidentiality and so forth, but getting feedback and thoughts from the devs really helps build understanding about the development process for players, which in turn should make their expectations about what the devs can deliver more realistic. I have always found David Gaider's Tumblr blog very informative about the constraints and challenges of the design process, and I think that sharing more of that knowledge with the player base would build better understanding, allowing players and devs to communicate more constructively.

This is an excellent idea.

[MonkeyLungs]

David Gaider's writing has provided me with SO MUCH amazing entertainment. He's a freaking SUPASTAR in my opinion whether he posts here or not. Also everyone at Bioware, even when I want to rage about your design decisions, a big grateful THANK YOU from me. I would love to chat with these guys and gals and interact with them but even if I never do and even when I am let down by certain choices in game direction etc., I still hold this game studio in a place close to my heart.

 

I know they make games and games are just entertainment, but for me they transcend much of the superficial and provide me with games with amazing characters and real emotional content.

 

There are many things that used to bother me A LOT more and still kind of bug me but at the end of the day and in the ultimate scope of things the way I feel playing Bioware games is really something special to me.

 

And I have been borderline super upset about certain things in Bioware games in the past but when I relax and look at the big picture I can't help but be thankful they make these great games.

[MaxQuartiroli]

I remember Origins/Awakening times, when David and many other BW folks were used to jump in the forums to talk with the fans about the game, the characters, the mechanics, the story and so on. And often they were also willing to compare their point of views with ours, listen to the feedbacks and so on.

I also remember that often you could open topic with titles like "A question for the devs: [...]" and you could be sure that 99% of times some of them would answer you.

 

Then DA2 and ME3 came out and people began to become more and more aggressive and every time one of them tried to jump in a discussion it was more a self-defense exercise than a chat with the fans. Therefore I am not really surprised if they don't show up here anymore..

[SofaJockey]

ok, I'm going to take a thread detonating risk... 

 

If there were 20 questions on a Q&A list that would settle most 'big questions' going around, what would they be?

 

They don't have to be questions we would expect will be answered, but even a 'no' or 'not saying' would be really helpful.

Once we have a sensible list, we can see if the community team would be interested in taking a look...

[turuzzusapatuttu]

And I have been borderline super upset about certain things in Bioware games in the past but when I relax and look at the big picture I can't help but be thankful they make these great games.

 

Same here. But it's sad that there is no communication between devs and customers.

[MaxQuartiroli]

ok, I'm going to take a thread detonating risk... 

 

If there were 20 questions on a Q&A list that would settle most 'big questions' going around, what would they be?

 

They don't have to be questions we would expect will be answered, but even a 'no' or 'not saying' would be really helpful.

Once we have a sensible list, we can see if the community team would be interested in taking a look...

 

 

I suggest you to open a whole new topic in a no-spoiler section just in case someone would ask something story-related.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I think that dev Q&As on the forums are a brilliant idea. Since David Gaider did ask for suggestions, maybe someone should tweet him a link? (Or send it to the Community Manager. Who is the Community Manager, anyway?)

 

That way, the forum population could actually communicate, but whoever sorted through the questions could take out all the 'WHY DOES BIOWARE EAT KITTENS?????' stuff before passing them on. It would also ensure that questions got to the relevant people - 'are you fixing this bug?' is generally not a good question for David Gaider or Patrick Weekes, for example.

[Avejajed]

We should feel lucky they talk to us at all ever.

[SofaJockey]

I think that dev Q&As on the forums are a brilliant idea. Since David Gaider did ask for suggestions, maybe someone should tweet him a link? (Or send it to the Community Manager. Who is the Community Manager, anyway?)

 

That way, the forum population could actually communicate, but whoever sorted through the questions could take out all the 'WHY DOES BIOWARE EAT KITTENS?????' stuff before passing them on. It would also ensure that questions got to the relevant people - 'are you fixing this bug?' is generally not a good question for David Gaider or Patrick Weekes, for example.

 

You are quite right, that the big questions are the ones to ask.

It should be fairly apparent, but number of 'likes' on a question could be used to determine interest?