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[warblewobble]

Apologies if this has been brought up already (very probable) but the comments Solas makes about spirits in DA:I got me thinking about Anders and Justice/Vengeance. Specifically, he states that a spirit becomes a demon when its true purpose is denied.

 

In DA:2 Anders more or less states that Justice has changed into something else within him as a result of his frustration and inability (or at least strong desire) to help free the mages. Does this mean that Justice has actually transformed from a spirit to a demon? The name change would seem to support this idea.

[springacres]

I can't say for 100% as I haven't even completed Act 1 in DA2 yet, but I think that at the very least he's headed down that path.  Personal headcanon suggests that Justice/Vengeance would eventually become a rage demon if left unchecked, so I don't think the transformation is complete yet, but we'll see if I change my mind as the game progresses.  (Certainly my canon Warden would be alarmed if he ran across DA2 Anders: "You did WHAT?  And you're living WHERE?  Maker's breath, and I thought Jowan's schemes were harebrained!")

[fhs33721]

Depends. In the Friendship path with Anders Justice, while still not very friendly, at least still seems to treat his host with some amount of care. On the rivaly path he has pretty much gone full demon, complete with focibly surpressing Anders mind if he wants resulting in Anders having a lot of blackouts and becoming even more of a nervous wreck without justice/vengeance giving a f*ck apparently. Also Anders himself tells that Justice was twisted into a being of Vengeance in the Rivalry.

[springacres]

 Anders himself tells that Justice was twisted into a being of Vengeance in the Rivalry.

There's a suggestion of that even when talking to him after Tranquility.  For some of the options, he talks about how Justice changed because Anders had too much anger.

[warblewobble]

Right, he does say things along those lines and that's why I found the notion intriguing. I guess it's because at the time of playing DA:2 I simply thought of Justice as a spirit that was corrupted by the anger and humanity of Anders but still not really a demon. It may be a semantic quibble but it seemed like there was a significant difference between 'demon' and 'overzealous spirit.' Looking back on it now I find it kind of interesting that Anders may have been- or at least been in the process of becoming- an abomination.

 

(Or is an abomination simply any human host that's possessed by a fade creature? Not sure but I didn't really consider Wynne an abomination in the first game and she was at least linked to a spirit in a similar way. Seeing demons and spirits as two sides of the same coin just sort of colors everything in a different light.)

[dragonflight288]

Right, he does say things along those lines and that's why I found the notion intriguing. I guess it's because at the time of playing DA:2 I simply thought of Justice as a spirit that was corrupted by the anger and humanity of Anders but still not really a demon. It may be a semantic quibble but it seemed like there was a significant difference between 'demon' and 'overzealous spirit.' Looking back on it now I find it kind of interesting that Anders may have been- or at least been in the process of becoming- an abomination.

 

(Or is an abomination simply any human host that's possessed by a fade creature? Not sure but I didn't really consider Wynne an abomination in the first game and she was at least linked to a spirit in a similar way. Seeing demons and spirits as two sides of the same coin just sort of colors everything in a different light.)

 

The chantry definition of an abomination is a mage who is possessed. Wynne shows that mages can be possessed without losing their sense of will or self. 

 

She was technically an abomination, but she wasn't a harmful one, and she was pretty much herself. Unless you count abominations as the mages who lost all sense of will and the demon controls everything now. 

 

Anders is kind of an in-between Wynne and an abomination, especially on the rivalry path. 

[springacres]

I count abominations as being mages who are completely controlled by a spirit/demon and have lost all sense of self.  So I don't view Wynne as an abomination.

[LobselVith8]

Apologies if this has been brought up already (very probable) but the comments Solas makes about spirits in DA:I got me thinking about Anders and Justice/Vengeance. Specifically, he states that a spirit becomes a demon when its true purpose is denied.

 

In DA:2 Anders more or less states that Justice has changed into something else within him as a result of his frustration and inability (or at least strong desire) to help free the mages. Does this mean that Justice has actually transformed from a spirit to a demon? The name change would seem to support this idea.

 

Well, it depends on whether or not you hold the same views as Solas when it comes to 'Spirits' and 'Demons', but Anders seemed like he was trying to understand what he had become, as well as what had transpired to Justice because of their union. I don't think he truly knew, since some of his dialogue contradicts other parts of his dialogue, including his speculation that Justice had become Vengeance. It's a bit ambiguous because of this uncertainty. Perhaps the seers of Rivain would be able to help him understand his symbiosis with Justice.

[dragonflight288]

Well, it depends on whether or not you hold the same views as Solas when it comes to 'Spirits' and 'Demons', but Anders seemed like he was trying to understand what he had become, as well as what had transpired to Justice because of their union. I don't think he truly knew, since some of his dialogue contradicts other parts of his dialogue, including his speculation that Justice had become Vengeance. It's a bit ambiguous because of this uncertainty. Perhaps the seers of Rivain would be able to help him understand his symbiosis with Justice.

 

I think it may be a mix of his religious views coming in conflict with his knowledge of magic and the nature of the Fade. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I do not buy into Solas's take on spirits/demons. He calls the Chantry definition of demons an "oversimplification," and then proceeds to summarize it himself with a number of suspect claims.

 

 

I do not think Anders corrupted Justice. If anything, I think it is the opposite. Justice was just a huge douchecanoe from the start.

[springacres]

I will admit that spirit!Justice was a bit too "black vs. white, good vs. bad, there is no middle ground" for my taste in Awakening.  My canon Warden put that down to his not knowing how the mortal world worked and hoped he'd improve with time.  The events of DA2 suggest otherwise, however.

[SgtSteel91]

I want to extend this to Merrill and Audacity. I sometimes wonder if Merrill's cautious, but not necessarily negative, view of Spirits caused Audacity to respond in kind and acted as a Spirit of Wisdom to her. But Marethari viewed it as a Demon, and by being closer it was corrupted into a Pride Demon.

[sjsharp2011]

 I do not buy into Solas's take on spirits/demons. He calls the Chantry definition of demons an "oversimplification," and then proceeds to summarize it himself with a number of suspect claims.
 
 
I do not think Anders corrupted Justice. If anything, I think it is the opposite. Justice was just a huge douchecanoe from the start.

After playing the Awakening expansion I think I'd agree with that

[Obadiah]

...
In DA:2 Anders more or less states that Justice has changed into something else within him as a result of his frustration and inability (or at least strong desire) to help free the mages. Does this mean that Justice has actually transformed from a spirit to a demon?
...

I guess that's about a good an explanation as any. I did consider Justice more of a spirit in DA:A, it was pretty sad what happened to him, after trying to help the Warden and unwittingly ending up possessing a dead body. I liked his ending in the DA:A epilogue. What happened to him and Anders in DA2 was... just... wrong.

 

I want to extend this to Merrill and Audacity. I sometimes wonder if Merrill's cautious, but not necessarily negative, view of Spirits caused Audacity to respond in kind and acted as a Spirit of Wisdom to her. But Marethari viewed it as a Demon, and by being closer it was corrupted into a Pride Demon.

Well... that Audacity spirit/demon was imprisoned in that shrine (of Dumat?), originally, one assumes, for a good reason.

[Kapparoth]

I want to extend this to Merrill and Audacity. I sometimes wonder if Merrill's cautious, but not necessarily negative, view of Spirits caused Audacity to respond in kind and acted as a Spirit of Wisdom to her. But Marethari viewed it as a Demon, and by being closer it was corrupted into a Pride Demon.

I am not sure that viewing it as a demon would have been enough. When M. & M. paid him visit for the first time (in Merrill's introductory/promo short story) he has already been bound to that idol, and this alone would have been enough to corrupt a spirit.

And then, the Dalish don't believe in good spirits at all. Spirits are spirits, fickle and dangerous. On the one hand, in theory at least, this belief makes the Dalish more cautious in dealings with the spirits - as if they were dealing with potentially dangerous beasts. But in practice, that caution isn't nearly enough - if I am to go on with that beast metaphor, it's like a bear or a boar they are hunting suddenly starts spewing fire or grows wings to swoop down on them from the sky. Take the clan in *Masked Empire*: they've fallen into pretty much the same trap as Merrill's clan.