135 réponses à ce sujet

[Siha]

I think you get mixed up in misinterpretations here.

The OP stated pretty clearly what he meant. I would put it like this: it is pretty difficult to feel like a monster in DAI. You could in DAO (side with the werewolves and kill the Dalish without even trying to find a better way), you could in ME (shoot Mordin in the back). You could choose to be said monster yourself. But all the dark happening in DA2 or even DAI is rather external; you do not produce it, you only are unable (or unwilling) to prevent it. The main protagonist was stripped of many choices to allow him to be the boogeyman himself. It is another league of dark.

[Bruce Wayne]

I think you get mixed up in misinterpretations here.

The OP stated pretty clearly what he meant. I would put it like this: it is pretty difficult to feel like a monster in DAI. You could in DAO (side with the werewolves and kill the Dalish without even trying to find a better way), you could in ME (shoot Mordin in the back). You could choose to be said monster yourself. But all the dark happening in DA2 or even DAI is rather external; you do not produce it, you only are unable (or unwilling) to prevent it. The main protagonist was stripped of many choices to allow him to be the boogeyman himself. It is another league of dark.

 

Thank you for understanding.

[BabyPuncher]

I hate to say it, but he has a point.

 

Other storytellers aren't going to sit and wait if BioWare if too terrified or docile to attempt an actual conflict because they think if they substitute in enough friendship moments and romance, players won't care. It's obvious they don't want a repeat of ME 3, but a plot cannot just be an excuse to go from one character interaction to the next.

 

If Inquisition is a glimpse of what's to come, BioWare's going to get left in the dust. As they should. Hopefully it isn't. Hopefully Inquisition is a one time phenomenon where BioWare decided to take the easiest and least risky approach available to try and 'prove' to players ME 3 isn't going to happen again.

[o Ventus]

I think you get mixed up in misinterpretations here.

The OP stated pretty clearly what he meant. I would put it like this: it is pretty difficult to feel like a monster in DAI. You could in DAO (side with the werewolves and kill the Dalish without even trying to find a better way), you could in ME (shoot Mordin in the back). You could choose to be said monster yourself. But all the dark happening in DA2 or even DAI is rather external; you do not produce it, you only are unable (or unwilling) to prevent it. The main protagonist was stripped of many choices to allow him to be the boogeyman himself. It is another league of dark.

I haven't seen what happens when you wipe out the Dalish in DAO, but none of the other options being presented are "boogeyman" options. The choice to shoot Mordin in ME3 is rationalized away by being a matter of pragmatism, and the view that the krogan would be dangerous if given large enough numbers (which is historically supported). It isn't a matter of Shepard waking up and feeling like murdering someone. Siding with Branka is the same way, the basis of the choice is "do you want dwarven footsoldiers or do you want golems to fight the Archdemon?" Not "do I feel like condemning a bunch of innocent people to eternal servitude today?"

[Siha]

Thank you for understanding.

 

All my life I wished to have Batman's back once. Thank you for making this possible.

[flabbadence]

Bottoms up Drinkquisition!

[Siha]

I haven't seen what happens when you wipe out the Dalish in DAO, but none of the other options being presented are "boogeyman" options. The choice to shoot Mordin in ME3 is rationalized away by being a matter of pragmatism, and the view that the krogan would be dangerous if given large enough numbers (which is historically supported). It isn't a matter of Shepard waking up and feeling like murdering someone. Siding with Branka is the same way, the basis of the choice is "do you want dwarven footsoldiers or do you want golems to fight the Archdemon?" Not "do I feel like condemning a bunch of innocent people to eternal servitude today?"

 

Come on, Ventus, I know you love to argue. But shooting Mordin in the back is completely dishonorable. You could go the other way and just stand by your decision not to cure the Genophage. Instead you pretend and shoot him in the back to stop him from doing it without sacrificing Krogan support. Rationalize away as you like it does not change the moral nature of the choice.

And when I walked up to that Dalish camp and just slaughtered every single soul in there without even trying to talk anybody down or find a middle ground, I was disgusted. It was only fair that I had to finish that nightmare run without any more health potions because I had also killed the only elfroot merchant in the game.

You will always find a reason to rationalize a decision and make it seem inevitable but that does not mean you aren't kidding yourself. You could have tried another way and didn't, that's what it comes down to. BioWare was good at delivering such choices and they mostly stripped us of them now*. Celene is left, as was that one side quest (thieves or merchs) in DA2. But DAO gave you more options to be dishonorable.

 

* It's not a major problem for me but I still acknowledge that Bruce Wayne had a point here. What he stated was a fat, what everyone makes of it is a different matter.

[Ryzaki]

Come on, Ventus, I know you love to argue. But shooting Mordin in the back is completely dishonorable. You could go the other way and just stand by your decision not to cure the Genophage. Instead you pretend and shoot him in the back to stop him from doing it without sacrificing Krogan support. Rationalize away as you like it does not change the moral nature of the choice.

???

 

Shepard flat out tells Mordin he's going to fire if Mordin doesn't leave. Mordin turns away fully knowing Shep's going to fire. That's part of the impact of the scene. Mordin knows that shot is coming. Even knowing that he still tries to cure the Krogan.

 

The dishonesty really is the lies after that.

[Siha]

???

 

Shepard flat out tells Mordin he's going to fire if Mordin doesn't leave. Mordin turns away fully knowing Shep's going to fire. That's part of the impact of the scene. Mordin knows that shot is coming. Even knowing that he still tries to cure the Krogan.

 

The dishonesty really is the lies after that.

 

See? You get my point.

You don't state your opinion right away, instead play along until in front of that tower, shoot, go back and go on pretending.

Not dishonorable?

[Red of Rivia]

I was talking to Monkey these days, he claims that Dragon Age was never dark even says he was always more to '' high fantasy. ''
I think it was dark but, not much, but it was and I liked, that was the reason attracted me to the game. I must have read somewhere that the game was dark and all over, then I went after the game. Perhaps because of having all that rot and climate of hopelessness, I do not know. Anyway, I think the proposal of Dragon Age changed from one game to another. The next game should solve that, I think DAI the proposal was not dark, the idea should be another. I really can not say  that the game is dark because in my opinion the game gave me no reason to think that. But this is my view,  Maybe someone should find the plot of DAI dark, but I think it's pretty difficult. I wanted to see more of the common people being humiliated, starving, always with the fear that demons can invade your house and kill everyone and etc. More tension I think it would help.

[Eliastion]

I don't think the main problem of DA:I when it comes to being the dark fantasy it should lies really in the "what" category. Yeah, you're given much less opportunity to be evil, but there are lots of dark elements in the world, even dark consequences of your own actions. The problem is presentation. Dark things mostly happen off-screen or are glossed over, really. Imagine if you were actually challanged with additional hints concerning the fate of Redcliffe and its mages if you don't do something - but it's hardly mentioned. And when the mages/templars attack Haven, they're a faceless mass of enemies, you're never really challenged with the fact that it was your leaving them to Venatori that led them to this situation.

However, I must say that I wonder how much the climate of the game would change if they just dropped those bright and colorful MMORPG-like world for something colored differently. Just that - some different colors, more appropriate for world torn apart by war... I believe this simple change would make the whole game significantly better.

 

Oh, and as for being pragmatically evil in DA:O, you had lots of opportunities. You could literally let a bunch of elves be taken as slaves in return for incriminating documents. Or you could have them killed for some neat stat bonus, if I recall correctly... And generally there are just some choices (like the Anvil) good people just don't make. And, btw, that was the main thing that made the evil path so good: evil doesn't usually mean "monster for no reason". It usually is "my reasons justify ANY means". and that's what good evil characters are all about  

[Ryzaki]

See? You get my point.

You don't state your opinion right away, instead play along until in front of that tower, shoot, go back and go on pretending.

Not dishonorable?

 

Yes Shep should acknowledge the plan right in front of the damn Krogan.

 

Seriously?

 

And yes the action was dishonest yes. That doesn't make it evil. Unless you want to claim getting Tali off during her LM was evil. Or stopping Garrus from killing Sidonos since you go there with the full knowledge that Garrus is going to kill him and you're going to help. Or lying to whoever about Samara's daughter being alive.

 

Or do those not count?

[raging_monkey]

I was talking to Monkey these days, he claims that Dragon Age was never dark even says he was always more to '' high fantasy. ''
I think it was dark but, not much, but it was and I liked, that was the reason attracted me to the game. I must have read somewhere that the game was dark and all over, then I went after the game. Perhaps because of having all that rot and climate of hopelessness, I do not know. Anyway, I think the proposal of Dragon Age changed from one game to another. The next game should solve that, I think DAI the proposal was not dark, the idea should be another. I really can not say  that the game is dark because in my opinion the game gave me no reason to think that. But this is my view,  Maybe someone should find the plot of DAI dark, but I think it's pretty difficult. I wanted to see more of the common people being humiliated, starving, always with the fear that demons can invade your house and kill everyone and etc. More tension I think it would help.

i stand by my words on it

And idk if im known by monkey on the bsn... did i get a fanclub overnight lol

[Siha]

Yes Shep should acknowledge the plan right in front of the damn Krogan.

 

Seriously?

 

And yes the action was dishonest yes. That doesn't make it evil. Unless you want to claim getting Tali off during her LM was evil. Or stopping Garrus from killing Sidonos since you go there with the full knowledge that Garrus is going to kill him and you're going to help. Or lying to whoever about Samara's daughter being alive.

 

Or do those not count?

 

Shepard can say "Nope, I will not help cure the Genophage", sacrifice Krogan support, and recruit the Salarians instead. What he should or should not do is an individual choice. (The other examples you mentioned I will disregard because I do not feel that lying about Samara's daughter, as an example, is an "evil" choice. I suppose everybody sees choices differently."Evil" is for me only seriously harming others without trying to find a better way.)

And if you wish to drag this into another direction now, please do so but I will not follow. Because that is not what I argued. "Honorable" does not necessarily mean the results will be just as promising or helpful in the long run, but this thread is not about the political or long-term implications, it is purely about the moral shades of gray. I personally do not wish to feel like a monster. I play all the major choices once for curiosity, but I have no desire to have the "evil" ones. But that's not the topic, the topic is that they are gone from the game. And I simply agree with Bruce Wayne that this is so.

[Red of Rivia]

i stand by my words on it

And idk if im known by monkey on the bsn... did i get a fanclub overnight lol

In fact you said ''medium fantasy'' that in your own words would be a mixture of high fantasy with dark fantasy.

[o Ventus]

Come on, Ventus, I know you love to argue. But shooting Mordin in the back is completely dishonorable. You could go the other way and just stand by your decision not to cure the Genophage. Instead you pretend and shoot him in the back to stop him from doing it without sacrificing Krogan support. Rationalize away as you like it does not change the moral nature of the choice.

And when I walked up to that Dalish camp and just slaughtered every single soul in there without even trying to talk anybody down or find a middle ground, I was disgusted. It was only fair that I had to finish that nightmare run without any more health potions because I had also killed the only elfroot merchant in the game.

You will always find a reason to rationalize a decision and make it seem inevitable but that does not mean you aren't kidding yourself. You could have tried another way and didn't, that's what it comes down to. BioWare was good at delivering such choices and they mostly stripped us of them now*. Celene is left, as was that one side quest (thieves or merchs) in DA2. But DAO gave you more options to be dishonorable.

 

* It's not a major problem for me but I still acknowledge that Bruce Wayne had a point here. What he stated was a fat, what everyone makes of it is a different matter.

How did 'dark' (the opening premise of the thread) become 'dishonorable'? Those are 2 separate things, even though they may overlap.

[Ryzaki]

Shepard can say "Nope, I will not help cure the Genophage", sacrifice Krogan support, and recruit the Salarians instead. What he should or should not do is an individual choice. (The other examples you mentioned I will disregard because I do not feel that lying about Samara's daughter, as an example, is an "evil" choice. I suppose everybody sees choices differently."Evil" is for me only seriously harming others without trying to find a better way.)

And if you wish to drag this into another direction now, please do so but I will not follow. Because that is not what I argued. "Honorable" does not necessarily mean the results will be just as promising or helpful in the long run, but this thread is not about the political or long-term implications, it is purely about the moral shades of gray. I personally do not wish to feel like a monster. I play all the major choices once for curiosity, but I have no desire to have the "evil" ones. But that's not the topic, the topic is that they are gone from the game. And I simply agree with Bruce Wayne that this is so.

 

You're really ignoring all the history of the genophage trying to change that into an evil/good choice. It's not that simple. You tried to claim the shooting Mordin in the back choice was about betrayal. It was not. It was about two friends or allies reaching an impasse and them both doing what they felt was right.

 

I never brought up honor I brought up honesty. Don't try to flip this into being about honor because honor can cause some pretty "evil" actions too.

[o Ventus]

In fact you said ''medium fantasy'' that in your own words would be a mixture of high fantasy with dark fantasy.

I guess there's some distinction now between high fantasy and dark fantasy. Because high fantasy can't be dark, and dark fantasy can't be overtly fantastical and grandiose like high fantasy, I guess.

 

So what is the Witcher then? The Witcher is plenty dark, but it also contains just as many (if not more) traditional elements of high fantasy as Dragon Age. Even DAO, the game that everybody here gets a hard d**k for, must not be 'dark fantasy', despite that being a major selling point, because it's also got plenty of traditional elements of high fantasy.

[raging_monkey]

In fact you said ''medium fantasy'' that in your own words would be a mixture of high fantasy with dark fantasy.

i stand by what i said.

I think i should have a fanclub haha

[raging_monkey]

I guess there's some distinction now between high fantasy and dark fantasy. Because high fantasy can't be dark, and dark fantasy can't be overtly fantastical and grandiose like high fantasy, I guess.
 
So what is the Witcher then? The Witcher is plenty dark, but it also contains just as many (if not more) traditional elements of high fantasy as Dragon Age. Even DAO, the game that everybody here gets a hard d**k for, must not be 'dark fantasy', despite that being a major selling point, because it's also got plenty of traditional elements of high fantasy.

the witcher is "dark" fantasy but appearently real fantasy at times its complicated

[o Ventus]

the witcher is "dark" fantasy but appearently real fantasy at times its complicated

There is no 'real' fantasy. That's a misnomer if I've ever heard one.

[raging_monkey]

There is no 'real' fantasy. That's a misnomer if I've ever heard one.

it what i call dark fantasy that applies "real world concepts consistently" if you know the proper term please enlighten me as i dislike misnomers and making new words(its a lot of work haha

[Mikejames]

 

I think the problem perhaps is that while there are elements that could easily be dark, we always learn about it in a way that makes us emotionally distant from it all.

That's a good way of putting it.

 

For example, I can appreciate that an effort is made to give enemy bandit/templar groups a little more morally grey depth through their scattered journals and diary entries, but it still usually boils down to systematically hunting and fighting them all fetch-quest style. It feels a bit more impersonal than the direct and varied interactions that the last two games tried to establish on side-missions.

[Red of Rivia]

I guess there's some distinction now between high fantasy and dark fantasy. Because high fantasy can't be dark, and dark fantasy can't be overtly fantastical and grandiose like high fantasy, I guess.

 

So what is the Witcher then? The Witcher is plenty dark, but it also contains just as many (if not more) traditional elements of high fantasy as Dragon Age. Even DAO, the game that everybody here gets a hard d**k for, must not be 'dark fantasy', despite that being a major selling point, because it's also got plenty of traditional elements of high fantasy.

I can tell you that: yes.

But still, if we put the witcher in the equation, I think he is very dark with a little high fantasy too, for those who read the books will understand what I mean. But the game is ''dark and dark'' at least the first and the second, the second not so much because it is over policy, but the first surely. The same thing  with A song of ice and fire, I consider a low fantasy with very high elements. The biggest reason The Witcher be considered dark fantasy is the gray tone that he has and the idea of ​​'' reality'' medieval he tries to bring (I used quotes because ... well, monsters are not real where I live   ), Dragon Age also acts, but on another scale. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I think one is closer to reality than the other.

[o Ventus]

it what i call dark fantasy that applies "real world concepts consistently" if you know the proper term please enlighten me as i dislike misnomers and making new words(its a lot of work haha

'Storytelling' would be what you're looking for.

 

Most every story in the history of mankind applies realistic concepts in at least a partially consistent manner, because 'realistic' is the foundation for human life and society. The Witcher, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, even Star Wars, they all apply realism and realistic themes and concepts, whether it be morals, politics, violence, etc. Some are more fantastical than others, but all of them are at least a tiny bit realistic.