14 réponses à ce sujet

[Koneko Koji]

So, this is a bit of a pet theory of mine - so bear with me, this may not be completely cohesive as I'm trying to get my thoughts down.

 

 

Right back from Origins, we've had characters such as Morrigan tell our player characters that history is determined by the victor, and figures of legend are often added to the tales afterwards (such as Flemeth and the Chasind legend).

 

Emperor Drakon was responsible for taking the Cult of the Maker and creating the Chantry - but this was some 300 years after Andraste was executed.

 

One of the big splits between the two Chantries is the view of Andraste - Bride of the Maker, or powerful Mage.

 

If we look at the story of Andraste with the idea that she was a Mage, then the tale can take on a totally different meaning with regards to the identity of the Maker.

 

According to the Dragon Age Wiki:

From an early age, Andraste suffered troubling dreams of a god known as the Maker. Over time she began to interpret these dreams as the answer to questions that plagued her, and she came to understand that the Maker was the supreme being who had abandoned the world when his people took up the worship of the Old Gods, those beings worshipped in particular by the Tevinter Imperium.

(source World of Thedas P.111)

 

In 'modern' Thedas, these sort of dreams in a Mage would be seen as the calling of a demon (or Spirit).

 

The Maker, apparently, only agrees to help Andraste if she spreads the Chant of Light to all of Thedas - a piece which venerates and glorifies the Maker, it should be noted.

 

She then battles across the land, with famine and flood etc decimating her enemies - divine intervention, or the work of powerful spirits / demons / abominations?

 

When Andraste is put to the stake, she is silent and then it's said that she glowed - this supposedly moved the Archon to put her out of her misery and stab her... but what if she had the spirit of this 'Maker' inside her and was using his power? We've seen this in Anders when Justice is called out, and Wynne when the spirit was inside her. What if he stabbed her to prevent her becoming a fully blown abomination?

 

We can't even take the Temple of Sacred Ashes as proof - since it clearly states that the 'people' in the gauntlet are Ash Spirits and may or may not be the original people they purport to be.

 

Could then, the Maker be a spirit or demon? (like Pride or Command) who found a very suitable vessel in a young mage woman and time & history, written by those who descended from the Cult of the Maker, has elevated them to Godhood?

 

It would also explain why Corypheus found the Golden City already black and empty. The events of the first blight destroyed records and civilisations that could confirm or deny this through their writings - aside from the Chant of Light, there is no actual proof that the city was anything other than what the Magisters found upon entering. And if the Maker was a spirit or demon, he would not have dwelled there in the first place.

 

 

As an aside, Andraste could also have been possessed of a remnent - like Flemeth, or even Mythal herself - which would explain why she only ever birthed daughters.

And I know some people show Morrigan and Kieran as disproof of this theory; but it must be recalled that Morrigan concieved Kieran in a black arts ritual and took in the soul of a male God - this would of course then manifest its self as a male; I'd actually put money on Morrigan only being able to have daughters otherwise - or that the 'curse' only kicks in when Mythal's spirit is in residence.

 

Anyway, these are just some musings!

[Ashagar]

A interesting fact is the maker is the same creator deity the ancient Northern Neromenian tribes who became the Tevinter worshiped before they started worshiping the old gods and after they started worshiping the old gods they still belived he created the world and the golden city was his seat.

 

Another interesting thing was Andraste was kept as a slave at a very young age in Tevinter before escaping, I wonder if that had something to do with her making the connection between her dreams and the deity she would rename the maker.

[catabuca]

OP: I love everything about your theory, it mirrors quite closely some of my own. 

 

I start mixing in a few things about Mythal (as you began to suggest at the end), and the Old Gods being aspects of the ancient elven gods that were split from them due to warring (one possibility is that some wanted to go down the path of worshipping their dragon form - since we know the could take on that form and it was considered divine - and some didn't - which fits with your ideas about the maker (Mythal? one of the other gods?) being interpreted as talking about worship of the Old Gods being why he (she, they?) turned away (were sealed away, by Fen'Harel, as my theory goes).

 

I think Mythal has possessed several key figures throughout history (Flemeth, Andraste, Tyrrda Bright-Axe) and her story always seems to go the same way. Whether that's intentional or she's set to repeat a pattern until Solas can fix whatever he did I'm unsure.

 

But Andraste was totes a mage. Just as Bright-Axe was, just as Flemeth was/is.

 

(Also, Fen'Harel was always there with her. Shartan; Tyrrda's 'leaf-eared lover'; and now returning to her in the form Solas after his sleep. They are old friends indeed.)

 

(I also have a crack theory that there's a shred of truth in 'Andraste's Mabari' - it was Fen'Harel, the story obviously mangled through time and not taken seriously at all.)

[MACharlie1]

Andraste was an OGB - born the same year Dumat was destroyed in a ritual that predates the Chantry....

[Koneko Koji]

Which begs the question just what are the old gods? Are they the Elhven gods whose people were torn apart by civil war and then destroyed by Tevinter?

 

I wonder if the arrival of the human race to Thedas had something to do with it all. Before then elves were immortal and could spend massive amounts of time worshiping etc - if we take the view that a Deity only has as much power as the people worshiping it, then they would be at their peak.

But with the arrival of humans and the first deaths happening - their power base would start to wain.

 

We're told that there was a split between the Deities - and that Mythal was murdered. What if the split was because the "Forgotten Ones" decided to switch their attention to the humans, seeing that although they had short lives - their vast numbers made up for the lack. These Forgotten Ones could have then gone on to become the Tevinter Gods.

 

Which would - if you add the Maker in as an Elvhen God - explain why he was so keen to bring them low and imprison them.

 

If we take The Void to be a real place (since Andruil hunted there, created weirdo animals and went mad) - we could then perhaps assume that the Maker banished these Gods to the Void, but since they were sealed - they were not infected with the Blight, not until the occupants of the Void (aka the Darkspawn) reach them and infect them.

 

This would make the Void a real realm - perhaps buried deep down under the Deep Roads (which we know go a lot farther down than they thought and there are Thaigs there that DO NOT appear in the Memories) or a seperate one like the roads of the Eluvian (another elvhen creation) - and that like the Breach, the first darkspawn came from there and started to reproduce and take over.

 

If that makes any sense....

[Ashagar]

I accept that the old gods might have some connection to the elven gods but when we look at the primal dwarfs of the primal thaig which was apparently deeper in the deep roads than even dwarves usually go, they apparently might have engaged in divine worship so I wonder if those lost dwarven gods are the forgotten ones that the elven gods warred with.

 

I have to admit I find the early worship of the maker interesting as it seems probable that the Northern Neromenian tribes may have brought his worship to Thadas with them from the north like the Alamarri brought the worship of their gods out of the distant west.

 

Which begs the question of why did humans like the Alamarri and the northern Neromenians engage divine worship while the rest of the known human tribes including the southern Neromenian tribes seemed to be Animistic in nature? Also what drove the humans to migrate into Thadas from the north and west in the first place? Does it have a connection with the war between the Fogotten ones and the Elven gods that perhaps did something that drove those loose tribal groups out of their homes and seek homes elsewhere?

[Kantr]

OP: I love everything about your theory, it mirrors quite closely some of my own. 

 

I start mixing in a few things about Mythal (as you began to suggest at the end), and the Old Gods being aspects of the ancient elven gods that were split from them due to warring (one possibility is that some wanted to go down the path of worshipping their dragon form - since we know the could take on that form and it was considered divine - and some didn't - which fits with your ideas about the maker (Mythal? one of the other gods?) being interpreted as talking about worship of the Old Gods being why he (she, they?) turned away (were sealed away, by Fen'Harel, as my theory goes).

 

I think Mythal has possessed several key figures throughout history (Flemeth, Andraste, Tyrrda Bright-Axe) and her story always seems to go the same way. Whether that's intentional or she's set to repeat a pattern until Solas can fix whatever he did I'm unsure.

 

But Andraste was totes a mage. Just as Bright-Axe was, just as Flemeth was/is.

 

(Also, Fen'Harel was always there with her. Shartan; Tyrrda's 'leaf-eared lover'; and now returning to her in the form Solas after his sleep. They are old friends indeed.)

 

(I also have a crack theory that there's a shred of truth in 'Andraste's Mabari' - it was Fen'Harel, the story obviously mangled through time and not taken seriously at all.)

I think the leaf eared lover was a girl if I remember correctly so not Fen'Harel (this would have been in the time at the height of Arlathan)

[catabuca]

I think the leaf eared lover was a girl if I remember correctly so not Fen'Harel (this would have been in the time at the height of Arlathan)

 

You're quite right. I've since revised my theory.

 

I'm now certain the laughing Lady of the Skies in Tyrdda's saga is Mythal.

[QueenCrow]

 

Could then, the Maker be a spirit or demon? (like Pride or Command) who found a very suitable vessel in a young mage woman and time & history, written by those who descended from the Cult of the Maker, has elevated them to Godhood?

 

 

 

Awesome theory, all reasonable conclusions and you've supported your theory with lots of great lore!  Thanks for posting this - it not only helps to hear someone's logical thinking on the whole mystery, but I've learned some things from the lore you've sourced.  Though I have no good critiques of your theory, I hope you won't mind if I add a banter quote that seems to me to support your theory.

 

 

Cassandra: Solas, if you do not mind me asking, what do you believe in?

Solas: Cause and effect. Wisdom as its own reward, and the inherent right of all free willed people to exist

Cassandra: That is not what I meant

Solas: I know. I believe the elven gods existed, as did the old gods of Tevinter. But I do not think any of them were gods, unless you expand the definition of the word to the point of absurdity. I appreciate the idea of your Maker, a god that does not need to prove his power. I wish more such gods felt the same.

Cassandra: You have seen much sadness in your journeys, Solas. Following the Maker might offer some hope.

Solas: I have people, Seeker. The greatest triumphs and tragedies this world has known can all be traced to people.

 

From Solas, who is consistently very interested in spirits, and doesn't bat an eye when the spirit of compassion inhabits Cole, who also calls the Inquisitor a "marvelous spirit" (if he likes them, I suppose), we get the suggestion that the gods exist(ed), but weren't exactly gods.  

 

When listening to this banter, it seems mere opinion, theory of an "hobo apostate mage".  It's is completely different if you consider Fen'Harel  is speaking.  And I think it all support your theory of the Maker as spirit.  The definition of god offered - not really gods - then comparison made with the idea of the Maker.  All this in a world of "gods" turning up as Flemyth with Mythal in her, hobo apostate mages with dread wolf rebel in him, spirits, and their "vessels".

 

Thank you again for putting this up for discussion!

[Cydh]

I've formulated a theory that essentially places Andraste as the vessel for Dumat, but also goes the extra mile and says that Andraste's visions were visions not of the Maker but of Dumat's Priest, Corypheus, when he was imprisoned by the Grey Wardens and started to lose his faith.

 

Andraste was very sad for several years and shed tears every day, until she had "the talk" with Corypheus, in the form of her first articulated meeting with The "Maker" - but it was just Corypheus who managed to talk to the Vessel of Dumat through their Taint. He wanted her to come join him and be his "bride" so he could be free from his prison, but she suggested she become his Priestess instead.

 

Corypheus was happy with the idea of being a true God and ran along with it. It went on until Andraste died, then he waited for close to a millenium and when he was out of it, realized what his "Chantry" had become (nothing like he wanted) and decided to go up there and claim his well-deserved throne and sacrificed his High Priestess (Divine Justinia) to do that, just like Dumat did with him, back in the good old days.

 

So yeah, this theory is "compatible" with most other theories; it doesn't prove anything about The Maker's existence; it only explains who Andraste heard in her visions, and why she has such a clear knowledge of the Black City - it's all told to her by Corypheus, pretending to be The Maker in a futile attempt to become a God while alone in his cell.

 

It also shows Corypheus as a pretty cool guy when it comes to his ideals, but they all got shattered and he went crazy (like Leliana) when he had his faith crisis.

 

Even if I wrote it, I don't know if I believe it. I like how it paints Corypheus, and how it doesn't change anything to any other possible theory. It also explains why Corypheus says "Maker" quote unquote in the memories, and how he can be so sure when he says this:

 

"Tell me... where is your Maker now? Call him, call down his wrath upon me! You cannot. For he does not exist!"

 

But all in all, I like that it explains the Chantry from an "atheist's" point of view, so-to-say. If your character doesn't believe in The Maker, then that's one way to explain the Chant of Light and paint Andraste as a gullible little girl with the wrong dragon in her guts, who listened a bit too much to Corypheus, and went a bit too far with it.

[X Equestris]

I've formulated a theory that essentially places Andraste as the vessel for Dumat, but also goes the extra mile and says that Andraste's visions were visions not of the Maker but of Dumat's Priest, Corypheus, when he was imprisoned by the Grey Wardens and started to lose his faith.
 
Andraste was very sad for several years and shed tears every day, until she had "the talk" with Corypheus, in the form of her first articulated meeting with The "Maker" - but it was just Corypheus who managed to talk to the Vessel of Dumat through their Taint. He wanted her to come join him and be his "bride" so he could be free from his prison, but she suggested she become his Priestess instead.
 
Corypheus was happy with the idea of being a true God and ran along with it. It went on until Andraste died, then he waited for close to a millenium and when he was out of it, realized what his "Chantry" had become (nothing like he wanted) and decided to go up there and claim his well-deserved throne and sacrificed his High Priestess (Divine Justinia) to do that, just like Dumat did with him, back in the good old days.
 
So yeah, this theory is "compatible" with most other theories; it doesn't prove anything about The Maker's existence; it only explains who Andraste heard in her visions, and why she has such a clear knowledge of the Black City - it's all told to her by Corypheus, pretending to be The Maker in a futile attempt to become a God while alone in his cell.
 
It also shows Corypheus as a pretty cool guy when it comes to his ideals, but they all got shattered and he went crazy (like Leliana) when he had his faith crisis.
 
Even if I wrote it, I don't know if I believe it. I like how it paints Corypheus, and how it doesn't change anything to any other possible theory. It also explains why Corypheus says "Maker" quote unquote in the memories, and how he can be so sure when he says this:
 
"Tell me... where is your Maker now? Call him, call down his wrath upon me! You cannot. For he does not exist!"
 
But all in all, I like that it explains the Chantry from an "atheist's" point of view, so-to-say. If your character doesn't believe in The Maker, then that's one way to explain the Chant of Light and paint Andraste as a gullible little girl with the wrong dragon in her guts, who listened a bit too much to Corypheus, and went a bit too far with it.

The issue with this idea is why would Cory portray himself, his fellows, Tevinter, and the Old Gods in a negative light? These are things that were a fundamental part of pretty much all Andrastian belief systems, dating before the formation of the Chantry.

[Cydh]

The issue with this idea is why would Cory portray himself, his fellows, Tevinter, and the Old Gods in a negative light? These are things that were a fundamental part of pretty much all Andrastian belief systems, dating before the formation of the Chantry.

 

The way I see it, he was having his big faith crisis and wanted to remake Tevinter (and the world) in his image. That's why he made Andraste raise an army to conquer it and establish himself as its one true god, as if the Calling to the Golden City never happened, as if the Old Gods never existed.

 

When he woke up a thousand years later, he saw that he failed completely and made it even worse.

 

That's how I'd rationalize it; but again, it's the kind of unprovable theory that you can't use for anything other than proving the absence of the Maker. An in-universe self-fulfilling conspiracy theory

[Koneko Koji]

The way I see it, he was having his big faith crisis and wanted to remake Tevinter (and the world) in his image. That's why he made Andraste raise an army to conquer it and establish himself as its one true god, as if the Calling to the Golden City never happened, as if the Old Gods never existed.

 

When he woke up a thousand years later, he saw that he failed completely and made it even worse.

 

That's how I'd rationalize it; but again, it's the kind of unprovable theory that you can't use for anything other than proving the absence of the Maker. An in-universe self-fulfilling conspiracy theory

 

Interesting points - especially if you expand it. David Gaider apparently stated on one of his blogs that The Architect was that same sort of being as Corypheus - so if the 7 are giving themselves names related to the idea that they were building a new world for themselves then it could easily follow that Corypheus (as Priest of Dumat and supposedly in charge of the rituals) would call himself The Maker.

[X Equestris]

Interesting points - especially if you expand it. David Gaider apparently stated on one of his blogs that The Architect was that same sort of being as Corypheus - so if the 7 are giving themselves names related to the idea that they were building a new world for themselves then it could easily follow that Corypheus (as Priest of Dumat and supposedly in charge of the rituals) would call himself The Maker.

Corypheus IS his title. It means "Conductor".

[Koneko Koji]

Corypheus IS his title. It means "Conductor".

 

Corypheus is the name he gave himself to be addressed with by the Magisters, I'm thinking afterwards when they get thrown down (or whatever really happened - I'm starting to think it was a plague or something that they bought back with them, infected their respective households and formed the first colonies of Darkspawn).