The Templars were hardly rapists who went around torturing and lobotomizing people. Most of them weren't even soldiers or combatants so much as they were monks or nobles.
Reynald de Chatillon wasn't even a Templar (or rather, there's no actual evidence to support his being affiliated with them at all).
he was an ally in good standing, so they at least didn't care.
DA:I did not make me feel a sense of urgency or loss. I don't feel sympathy or pity for any NPCs because none of them are fleshed out at all. There's nothing that makes me feel that sense of horror like when discovering the Broodmothers in Origins (especially as a female Dwarven noble who if not for Duncan would have shared the same fate). We don't see any discrimination or oppression, no rapists or murderers, etc...just a bunch of cardboard cutouts standing around unaffected by anything. After Haven (which we never have to recover from, we are just instantly upgraded to the much better Skyhold in one cutscene), Corypheus never comes after us or makes an attempt to stop us at all. He doesn't even try to stop us when we fire the trebuchet and run away from him, he just stands there and stares at us running away before the dragon picks him up. The guy's a mage, he could have stood right there and shocked us as we ran.
well if you are going to name you game after the Inquisition AKA an Organisation that made the SS look like spoiled children or the NKVD look like mall security, then YES, live up to the name or do not use it.
You realise that inquisition is a word in it's own right, yes? The medieval organisation of that name does not have exclusive ownership of it like some kind of trade mark. It's the appropriate name for an organisation founded in the circumstances and with the goals laid out in the game lore. This does not mean it has to be a carbon copy of the organisation of the same name in the real world.
As I said, you're just pissed that you don't get to act like a psychopathic sadist in game. Grow up.
Guest_Roly Voly_*
well if you are going to name you game after the Inquisition AKA an Organisation that made the SS look like spoiled children or the NKVD look like mall security, then YES, live up to the name or do not use it.
It wasn't named after The Inquisition of the Roman Catholic Church of popular (yet probably inaccurate in most folks' minds) knowledge. Do you realize the Chinese had an Inquisition? Do you think it had some sort of obligation to go around doing what the RCC Inquisition did? Kinda doubt it. It is, in fact, named after what an organization called itself before there was even a formal "world church" even in existence.
Just essentially repeating what xyxlplic said, I know.
The Hunger demon was wrong about Morrigan's relationship with Flemeth. In Oghren's nightmare, the Hunger Demon was TOO accurate in recreating Oghren's life of shame as a weaponless warrior which prompted Oghren to free himself from his nightmare without help. The Hunger Demon didn't even seem to bother to use the racial background of the Warden as a dream sequence. Basically, I got the impression that the Hunger Demon really sucked at creating dreams and nightmares.
Nope.
Morrigan wanted to be closer with her mother. Obviously Morrigan also knew that Flemeth would never act this way so she saw right through the ruse.
DAI shows how much Morrigan despised the way Flemeth treated her as a child and wanted to give Kieran a better life than she had.
Oghren just wanted to drink his problems away in peace. The setting was familiar, and naturally had the people who mock him. It doesn't make it any less desirable since we tend to gravitate towards familiarity despite the problems the setting may have. Naturally, Oghren gets into a fight and funnily enough, manages to escape the demon's grasp.
Wynne wanted to just give up hope. She was tired of being strong.
etc..
The demon merely creates the world it thinks would make its occupants content. It doesn't have to always be a happy contentment.
It also cannot possibly take into account the occupant's resolve and willpower, so naturally some may not fall for it.
Sten didn't, but he stayed anyway because he was content in seeing his friends.
Because people really enjoy it when you triumph when everything seems hopeless.
Best moments in DA:O? Ostagar when you lose. Battle of Denerim which is a hail mary to kill the archdemon or Ferelden falls.
Best moments in DA:I? The introduction, The Templar/Mage stories, the battle at Haven, the Nightmare god, all of which the odds are stacked against you, in Haven's case and the Nightmare's, completely unwinnable.
People love the drama it creates. But in DA:O's case it ended with a final battle you miraculously won when you killed the Archdemon, meanwhile in DA:I's case the hopeless battle occurs less than halfway through and you spend the rest of the game kicking ass and taking names. You beat Corypheus to the well even though he knew about it beforehand, you undermine his inner circle while yours is untouchable, he's too scared to assault your fortress, He's the one forced to do a hail mary last ditch attempt to win at the end, etc.
Mind you i love DA:I but after playing it a few times I can admit that there isn't much threat presented. Minor flaw in an amazing game, i look forward to what they think of next.
I couldn't agree more. IMOHO think the discussion of the "Tone" or "Darkness" are completely missing the boat.
The problem is PACING and THREAT,
Let's look at the STORY beat points:
Prologue
In the prologue both the threat and pacing are high. You are basically a prisoner going along with a plan that might save your life from a strange body-altering event. People generally think of you as a murder-suspect.
- You are on your own surrounded by strangers
- You are facing unknown odds against an unknown villain who is a basically a disembodied voice
- This takes up roughly 1 hour playtime
Threat: HIGH
Pacing: HIGH
Act I
In the first Act, you wake up in Haven, and the people around you already see you as the second coming (with one sceptic, who is basically dismissed and ridiculed). The outside world isn't sure about you. You start to slowly build a rag-tag gang into a viable force for change in the world.
- You have a growing rag-tag group of rebels around you
- Your villain is still basically a mystery. You have no idea of the threat you are facing. How much power do you need to win?
- When the villain does reveal himself, you are able to beat back his assault, but the overall battle is basically a stalemate, he loses his forces, you lose your stronghold. In a 1-on-1 battle perspective, you get your ass handed to you,
- I did every quest and side quest and it took me 20 hours
Threat: High
Pacing: Medium
Act II
In the second act you IMMEDIATELY find your allies, then IMMEDIATELY, with no effort, find an almost inpenetrable stronghold that it is made clear is under NO THREAT of being assaulted. You almost immediately start dismantling the enemies forces, to the point where the main villain who completely wiped the floor with you in Act 1, basically goes into hiding from your awesomeness.
- You have basically lost none of the forces you built in Act 1, and you keep adding to your arsenal
- You learn who the villain is, how to beat him, take no significant losses and face no threat of attack
- With all side-quests this was roughly 70 hours for me
Threat: Low
Pacing: SLOW
Act III
I see this as starting after Val Royeaux and Adamant. The temple of Mythal and the final confrontation. The pace picks up significantly at this point, but again it is clear that you have the upper hand and the villain is basically on the run up until the abrupt final battle.
- You still have the upper hand. Your forces are at their full force, the enemy is decimated.
- About 5ish hours
Threat: Low
Pacing: Medium-High
Here is the problem: Act 2
The Prologue and Act 1 do a good job of building up the world, and the story structure to content ratio is good. The hinterlands makes perfect sense early in the game because outside of Haven you are basically a nobody and you are still building your nae,
Act 2 in a 3 act structure SHOULD be when you are at your absolute lowest point, where the odds a re stacked against you, and it looks like all hope is lost, but in DA:I all of your problems are essentially resolved right at the start of Act 2 and you never suffer ANY losses.
How they could have fixed the pacing?
Leave the prologue and Act 1 UNCHANGED.
Act 2
First... you don't find the Inquisition followers right away. You actually need a longer sequence of being hunted.
- Maybe instead of finding the Inquisition right away you just get found and nursed to health by some random family. Maybe the father was one of your soldiers, and he is missing or dead. At first the wife and kids don't recognize you, but when they do they blame you for the death of the husband and you need to deal with the consequences of your holy war on a very personal level.
- You are completely disempowered, alone and questioning your actions.
- You need to WORK to get back to your main forces. A few investigation type fetch quests, where you gather clues and track down your guys. This should be a few hours worth atleast. The climax is when you find your forces out in the wilderness, they are under attack (perhaps by red templars or some other force related to Corypheus). You join the battle, turn the tide and fight off the force but re-injure yourself.
- Once you've found your forces, you have the "Kumbaya moment" EXACTLY as scripted, except you DO NOT get Sky Haven right away after. Solas tells you ABOUT Sky Haven, but the journey will be difficult. You essentially now have a moving refugee camp as a home base and you need to go through several hoops in order to keep fighting off Corypheus forces, while investigating clues to find sky hold. Some of the regions like the Exalted Plains, emerald graves, etc... could have been visited primarilly to get clues ABOUT sky hold, but also to weaken Corypheus and gather resources FOR your refugee camp. Gather resources or your people DIE.
- Everytime you leave and come back you find out the people in the camp are being murdered, supplies are being sabotages, and information about your movements are being LEAKED to the enemy (hence why you are constantly harassed by attacks and assassination attempts every time you visit a reguon) Someone important DIES. Either Cullen OR Josie, depending on who you have the HIGHEST approval rating or are Romancing. Josie and I were in a Romance... Cory should have had her killed. Make the threat REAL and PERSONAL (and by extension if I eventually learn it was all Solas fault... give me a personal reason to hate HIM).
- Evidence points to your entourage. Sera, Blackwall, Iron Bull, Dorian are all suspects. Cole isn't really a suspect in your mind, but the people all see him as some kind of Demon, and they start a witch hunt blaming him. Sera seems like the obvious suspect. Iron Bull and Dorian's backgrounds come to light, and they are suspects. You learn of Blackwalls dark past HERE, and suddenly he looks like a VERY likely suspect. There are tons of opportunities for party members to leave depending on your actions and words in the face of all this.
- you eventually learn who the assassin is. I can think of a few good candidates, but a good one for my would Iron Bulls second in command. As a Vint and a Charger many of the clues would end up implicating Dorian or Iron Bull. Plus seeing Bull have to put his lieutenant down would be heart-breaking.
- You get the last clue from the infiltrator for Skyhold, but now it's a race to get there before Corypheus. You finally get there ahead of the enemies vanguard, and now you have to quickly put together a defense, with nothing but a skeleton crew to fight off a advanced force.
- You win the battle against the vanguard that Cory sent out to take skyhold, but basically only you and your companions are left from the battle. You have slowed down Cory via victories in areas like The Graves, etc... so he will need time to muster an invasion force to re-take Skyhold, but you have completely exhausted your personel and resources.
Time: 30-40 hours
Threat: HIGH
Pacing: Medium
Act III
- An invasion is coming, you now have 2 goals. Gather resources and men to quickly get Skyhold up and running again, continue to pick away at Cory's forces and operations in various regions.
- Eventually, when you have enough power (I would have had it at 50ish, instead of 30), you have enough influence to get an invitation to the Empress party, and you can deal with the assassination plot you learn of in Act 2 (before Josie potentially dies).
- Morrigan joins the Inquisition
- Once Morrigan joins, THAT triggers the Adamant mission opening up as you learn from Hawke (who Verric finally reveals he knew where he was all the time) that Corypheus is controlling Wardens and building an army of demons to take Skyhold.
- It's a race against time now... deal with the threat BEFORE Cory builds a force that can take skyhold... URGENCY!
- Pull the trigger, and have the HoF, the Orlesian Warden, Loghain, Alistair AND Stroud (whoever is an Active Warden, in the play state) meet up with Hawke in the Western approach. Have the Warden say very little, or nothing until in the Fade, where they ALL volunteer to stay behind. HoF: "This is your fight now Inquisitor... don't worry, we've got this!" Last you see of them for the main game. You only see Stroud and Loghain actually fall in battle before jumping through the rift. The hoF and Hawke... still potentially in play for any DLC
- If Morrigan or Leliana were in a romance with the HoF... you have to deal with that back at SkyHaven... and Verric needs to deal with the potential loss of Hawke... DRAMA!
- Morrigan does her deal about the Arbbor Wilds, temple of Mythal, Flemmeth shows up, sub-plot with Kieran
- The assault on temple of Mythal goes as originally scripted
- After the temple of Mythal, the drinker of the Well needs to learn via... Magic Knowledge I guess, that while all this was going on, somehow Corypheus raised another army and is on his way to take sky hold.
- Final battle is preceded by HUGE siege on Skyhold, where SKyholds defenses are at half strength because not all your forces are back from the Arbbor Wilds yet.
- Party, Epilogue, Post credit WTF moment with Solas as originally scripted.
- Another 30-40 hours
Threat: HIGH
Pacing: Medium
You basically add a couple little plot points, a cinematic or two (the assassination of Josie or Cullen), one extra location (the Inquisition refugee camp), and some dialog with the companions about their potential allegiance and rearrange all the existing content, and you can basically use the game as is, but the level of urgency and tension would be SO much higher.
My $0.02
That wasn't 2 cents. That was at least a full dollar.
That wasn't 2 cents. That was at least a full dollar.
I know... I hope it was worth it.
I had the same kind of reaction to the Hobbit films btw. There is AWESOME content, great acting, etc... but there is no thought to story structure and pacing, so the temsion is just never there.
Same thing with DA:I... it's all RIGHT THERE. It's a great game, with all the elements for a great story, but basic story-telling elements are ignored. I mean with those few changes, even resource gathering fetch quests start being SOOO important.
Sorry for ranting 
I know... I hope it was worth it.
I had the same kind of reaction to the Hobbit films btw. There is AWESOME content, great acting, etc... but there is no thought to story structure and pacing, so the temsion is just never there.
Same thing with DA:I... it's all RIGHT THERE. It's a great game, with all the elements for a great story, but basic story-telling elements are ignored. I mean with those few changes, even resource gathering fetch quests start being SOOO important.
Sorry for ranting
Don't apologize for voicing your opinion in a thorough manner! 
I'm in the camp that believes that your experience is what you make of it.
DAI is not a linear game and is much looser than its predecessors.
So ultimately pacing is up to the player.
Think of a buffet. Instead of just having main courses, it also has a lot of appetizers and desserts.
You only need to eat the main courses to be full, but you can eat the appetizers and desserts to have a better experience.
If you eat too much, you can end up feeling sick and groggy. If you can eat it all, then more power (and kilograms) to you.
They can guide you in a 5 course meal and you can eagerly anticipate each one, but you lose all sense of agency in selecting your own food.
Similarly. DAI has a LOT of missions that are not a direct part of the main plot but complement the experience.
Doing too much of them can destroy any sense of pacing. You're not expected to either.
K now I'm hungry.
Similarly. DAI has a LOT of missions that are not a direct part of the main plot but complement the experience.
Doing too much of them can destroy any sense of pacing. You're not expected to either.
K now I'm hungry.
Here is my issue with that reasoning...
1) if I haven't played the game before, how do I *know* what parts to play or not to play? This logic only works for a 2nd+ PT, imo. And in fact if I did a 2nd PT, I would motor through the main plot, and mop up in the post game state for sure.
2) that would help the pacing, but not the threat... I still have Cory completely on the run fro the moment I am given Skyhold.
Bon appetite 
Here is my issue with that reasoning...
1) if I haven't played the game before, how do I *know* what parts to play or not to play? This logic only works for a 2nd+ PT, imo. And in fact if I did a 2nd PT, I would motor through the main plot, and mop up in the post game state for sure.
2) that would help the pacing, but not the threat... I still have Cory completely on the run fro the moment I am given Skyhold.
Bon appetite
You stop doing things when you are bored.
You advance the plot when you are tired of doing side missions. That's how it always has been. DAI simply has a lot more side missions.
They aren't that tedious either even on your first PT. I can see them getting uninteresting in subsequent playthroughs but not the first.
Well that's probably an opinion, but honestly there is a sense of mystery to exploration on your first go-around. That can't be denied.
The only way you don't enjoy it is if you hate exploration. DAI isn't the game for you then.
Regarding your second point, I think it's a matter of realizing that this is a losing battle for Corypheus rather than yourself.
Every major plot quest is ALMOST a failure. You almost lost to Corypheus once at Haven. That was the crisis point.
On your first playthrough you never knew what was going to happen on the main quests. All you knew is that Corypheus was winning and you had to somehow beat him.
You start off hopeless and the game slowly makes you more assured that you CAN beat Corypheus and things ARE NOT hopeless. Of course you have to think of this in the shoes of your IQ and the Inquisition, rather than as a player.
It's a different kind of storytelling. I suppose that can potentially ruin the pacing for some people who demand a constant overwhelming force, but I thought it was an interesting change of pace
well if you are going to name you game after the Inquisition AKA an Organisation that made the SS look like spoiled children or the NKVD look like mall security, then YES, live up to the name or do not use it.
You stop doing things when you are bored.
You advance the plot when you are tired of doing side missions. That's how it always has been. DAI simply has a lot more side missions.
They aren't that tedious either even on your first PT. I can see them getting uninteresting in subsequent playthroughs but not the first.
Well that's probably an opinion, but honestly there is a sense of mystery to exploration on your first go-around. That can't be denied.
The only way you don't enjoy it is if you hate exploration. DAI isn't the game for you then.
Regarding your second point, I think it's a matter of realizing that this is a losing battle for Corypheus rather than yourself.
Every major plot quest is ALMOST a failure. You almost lost to Corypheus once at Haven. That was the crisis point.
On your first playthrough you never knew what was going to happen on the main quests. All you knew is that Corypheus was winning and you had to somehow beat him.
DAI also plays the "hope" card in an opposite manner to most games. You start off hopeless and the game slowly makes you more assured that you CAN beat Corypheus and things ARE NOT hopeless.
It's a different kind of storytelling. I suppose that can potentially ruin the pacing for some people, but I thought it was an interesting change of pace
This is what I thought as well. I know the standard story is the tried and tested method but... I guess I'm kind of tired of it.
Just thought I'd mention Chateau d'Onterre since that was pretty dark.
Especially since the real Inquisition actually considered the death of a heretic a failure of its duties to save souls.Oh, look. More gross hyperbole.
via PM I will yea, we have torn this off topic far enough (EDIT or read:
By Sword and Fire: Cruelty And Atrocity In Medieval Warfare: The Savage Reality of Medieval Warfare)
Overall, I like the story and I love the exploration. However, I do think the story lacks an overall sense of urgency.
When I first got the game, all I knew was the early hype that choices would matter, people could die based on your choices (Crestwood footage). I didn't want to spoil the game too much, so I pre-ordered it and then stayed away from the hype.
The first playthrough, I pretty much ran for that first rift, worried that Cullen and his soldiers would die if I stopped to explore the beginning area, pick up too much loot, etc.
It only took a little bit (probably longer for me than most) for me to realize that nothing was going to happen to any of the main characters, I could explore to my heart's content, nothing would happen until I triggered it on the war table. It removed the sense of impending doom, the need for immediate action no longer necessary.
I think it unfortunate that the early hype relied so heavily on choices that matter, because it set expectations for one kind of game and what was delivered, although fun, wasn't quite what was expected. Since I understand that alpha and beta footage is not set in stone, I blame no one other than myself.
I still enjoy the game, but more on a Skyrim, wandering around getting lost in the beauty of it all, kind of way, instead of a holy-crap-tastic gotta get this done or people will suffer kind of way.
I know... I hope it was worth it.
I had the same kind of reaction to the Hobbit films btw. There is AWESOME content, great acting, etc... but there is no thought to story structure and pacing, so the temsion is just never there.
Same thing with DA:I... it's all RIGHT THERE. It's a great game, with all the elements for a great story, but basic story-telling elements are ignored. I mean with those few changes, even resource gathering fetch quests start being SOOO important.
Sorry for ranting
I agree with everything pretty much~ I found the Cornflower battle at the end really anticlimactic (WEWH though I think did a reasonably good job of building tension with the slipping approval counter - I think it could have been executed much better and the cut scenes were so heavy handed, but overall I had a lot of fun with it) Just the mechanics of the final confrontation were really eye-roll-y - maybe I've played too many MMOs, but I always expect final bosses to have different kinds of gimmicks like "must kill summoned minion A and summoned minion B at the same time in a specific position or party wipe" and more diverse kinds of telegraphed aoes (ones that sweep out like Cory's did, ones that spread from the center outwards so you have to be at the edges of the map, ones that require you to find higher ground etc.) The final battle just didn't make him feel like a threat at all - the Nightmare demon seemed more dangerous (not so much for battle mechanics, but for the build up and the storytelling).
he was an ally in good standing, so they at least didn't care.
What part of "there's no evidence to support him being affiliated with them" evaded you?
Did you actually study history, or just watch Kingdom of Heaven and decide that it's historically accurate?
What part of "there's no evidence to support him being affiliated with them" evaded you?
Did you actually study history, or just watch Kingdom of Heaven and decide that it's historically accurate?
only you know him being in the same damn army as them on multiple occasions, including the Battle of Montgisar, and the Battle of Hattin
only you know him being in the same damn army as them on multiple occasions, including the Battle of Montgisar, and the Battle of Hattin
only you know him being in the same damn army as them on multiple occasions, including the Battle of Montgisar, and the Battle of Hattin
By this token, then every single person who had ever fought in any of the Crusades was also a Templar, just by association of being in a battle with them.
That's the same thing as saying that random longbowman number 77 was associated with Henry V because they were both at Agincourt. Being in the same army means very little, especially as Chatillion was a secular nobleman and the Templars were a monastic order.
in related news did you know that Charles de Gaulle was responsible for the Katyn massacre
DA:I did not make me feel a sense of urgency or loss. I don't feel sympathy or pity for any NPCs because none of them are fleshed out at all. There's nothing that makes me feel that sense of horror like when discovering the Broodmothers in Origins (especially as a female Dwarven noble who if not for Duncan would have shared the same fate). We don't see any discrimination or oppression, no rapists or murderers, etc...just a bunch of cardboard cutouts standing around unaffected by anything. After Haven (which we never have to recover from, we are just instantly upgraded to the much better Skyhold in one cutscene), Corypheus never comes after us or makes an attempt to stop us at all. He doesn't even try to stop us when we fire the trebuchet and run away from him, he just stands there and stares at us running away before the dragon picks him up. The guy's a mage, he could have stood right there and shocked us as we ran.
This. And you know what ? I recently played game of throne tellitale, and it took me only a few hours to finish the two episodes, and holy crap, the story punched me, gave me chills, emotional strokes, unlike DAI which took me more than 100 hours... and made me feel absolutely nothing ! Oo I was like wtf ?
I really cared about my family, this game made me feel a sense of loss and urgency. I hated several antagonists,, I loved several characters close to me already. And this game took me only a few hours for the love of god, and it cost me 4.99 euros, wow. That's where I really was certain that something was weird and wrong with the " tone " of the story and the universe in DAI ! 
Same here, Telltale really did an amazing job getting you attached to the characters and I really did feel a strong sense of urgency as well as my choices being relevant .This. And you know what ? I recently played game of throne tellitale, and it took me only a few hours to finish the two episodes, and holy crap, the story punched me, gave me chills, emotional strokes, unlike DAI which took me more than 100 hours... and made me feel absolutely nothing ! Oo I was like wtf ?
I really cared about my family, this game made me feel a sense of loss and urgency. I hated several antagonists,, I loved several characters close to me already. And this game took me only a few hours for the love of god, and it cost me 4.99 euros, wow. That's where I really was certain that something was weird and wrong with the " tone " of the story and the universe in DAI !
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