47 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

They are as big as the plot demands because Bioware cares little for something called military logistics.

Well, yes. They are game developers, not historians.

Adding that kind of detail would almost certainly be counterproductive. It wouldn't add much to the story, because it's perfectly understandable as it is without involving numbers. And if the numbers were implausible, which they almost certainly would be, people would latch onto that as LOL STUPID BIOWER WRITERS. In Origins, when Riordan mentioned that the Orlesian army's expeditionary force to deal with the darkspawn was 400 divisions, it was ridiculous. "Division" has meant many things in history, but it usually refers to a multi-regiment/multi-brigade formation of approximately 10,000-15,000 soldiers. And the Orlesians, or really anybody before Napoléon, massing half a million men in a single army for any purpose is simply hilarious. The numbers didn't add anything to the story; Riordan simply could've said "well the Orlesians are fully mobilized and ready to go with the biggest army they can muster" and the conversation wouldn't have been any worse.

The OP brought up George R. R. Martin's war writing. Funny thing is that Martin's wars are equally silly. His numbers make little sense, his geography is bizarre, his avowed military geniuses know very little of basic operational art, and he whiffs on basic things like the speed of land transport vs. water transport. The entire War of the Five Kings is a muddled mess, crowned by the ridiculous prelude to the events at Blackwater Bay.

This is only to be expected. Martin is an author of fiction, not a historian. If he were a historian, he'd probably be a crappier fiction writer. That doesn't mean that making fiction more "realistic" or "plausible" directly leads to worse-quality fiction, but that there are only so many things a given author can do. Even in his supposedly hard-hitting "realistic" deconstructive low fantasy, basic details are wrong. Would it be nice if they weren't? Sure. Would Martin ever actually be able to publish new works if he spent more time on research? Probably not.

[catabuca]

Actually after the battle with Corypheus if you check "the view of  the troops" it will say:

 

 

You can view your troops?????

 

And here was me thinking I'd done a completionist run.

[Soulmirror]

20, maybe 21...

Final zone with troops deployed, that is how many were in the zone...

[omgodzilla]

If you put most of your inquisition perks into "Forces" then in the epilogue screens, Morrigan says that the inquisition's military is now powerful enough to rival kingdoms. But which kingdoms exactly? Some are clearly far more powerful than others. Orlais and Tevinter probably have larger militaries than Ferelden or Antiva. If I had to guess though, I'd say the inquisition's military must have atleast a few thousand men and women. 

[AlexMBrennan]

At Haven? Two dozen soldiers would Be pushing it. Skyhold? Maybe 100 men (did you see any barracks? Do you want the soldiers to camp outside the walls during a siege?). However, you need to add to that any forces in the field (a dozen soldiers at every camp). This is consistent with every minor task having to be done personally by the Inquisitor - Cullen simply doesn't have any men to spare who could collect iron located literally 30s from the main camp. Seriously, if we had thousands of soldiers you'd have thought that they' be able to deal with one vhargast but no, better page the inquisito, make him travel all across Thedas...

[omgodzilla]

At Haven? Two dozen soldiers would Be pushing it. Skyhold? Maybe 100 men (did you see any barracks? Do you want the soldiers to camp outside the walls during a siege?). However, you need to add to that any forces in the field (a dozen soldiers at every camp). This is consistent with every minor task having to be done personally by the Inquisitor - Cullen simply doesn't have any men to spare who could collect iron located literally 30s from the main camp. Seriously, if we had thousands of soldiers you'd have thought that they' be able to deal with one vhargast but no, better page the inquisito, make him travel all across Thedas...

 

Because game mechanics. This is a game that is centered on exploration so you have to go out into the field to do everything on your own. The military is only a set piece in the background except for very specific points in the game such as Adamant. Bioware did what they could given the time and resources they had at their disposal. The focus throughout most of the game was on the inquisitor and not his/her army. 

 

In the epilogue, Morrigan states that the inquisition's military rivals that of nations (assuming you put all of your perk points into "Forces"). We have to accept that that is the true power of the military and not the few dozen soldiers that we see at any given point in the game. 

[Gervaise]

Our forces are spread around.   We have two main sub-bases, Crestwood and the Western Approach, the main base Skyhold pretty much in the middle.   There are also all the numerous little outposts with just a handful of soldiers manning them.     If you brought all our forces together in one place it would probably make for a decent enough sized army but that is unlikely to happen.    I would imagine that our Western approach base was used for the assault on Adamant, with some additional forces sent to bolster numbers from Skyhold.    For the Arbor Wilds run it would mainly have consisted our Skyhold forces, combined with the Orlesian army.    Our real strength lies in the alliances we have built up, so whenever we need additional troops, we can call on our allies to supply them.

[Aren]

We got to see our entire army in full force at the Arbor wilds. Yes, those 12 brave soldiers strike fear into the hearts of nations with their numbers.

 

In other words...what army?

AHHAhh  ecxatly this!

[BabyPuncher]

The OP brought up George R. R. Martin's war writing. Funny thing is that Martin's wars are equally silly. His numbers make little sense, his geography is bizarre, his avowed military geniuses know very little of basic operational art, and he whiffs on basic things like the speed of land transport vs. water transport. The entire War of the Five Kings is a muddled mess, crowned by the ridiculous prelude to the events at Blackwater Bay.

This is only to be expected. Martin is an author of fiction, not a historian. If he were a historian, he'd probably be a crappier fiction writer. That doesn't mean that making fiction more "realistic" or "plausible" directly leads to worse-quality fiction, but that there are only so many things a given author can do. Even in his supposedly hard-hitting "realistic" deconstructive low fantasy, basic details are wrong. Would it be nice if they weren't? Sure. Would Martin ever actually be able to publish new works if he spent more time on research? Probably not.

 

It's not equally forgivable.

 

When characters make mistakes that are completely tangential to the plot and themes, it's not really that big a deal.

 

However, when a story takes it upon itself to crown its characters pragmatic masterminds and, as you said, avowed military geniuses not only alongside stupid mistakes but because of stupid mistakes, it's a big deal. When a central theme of your story is how super-ultra-competent your Machiavellian character is, it's not going to work very well if the audience can see them for the bumbling idiot they are.

 

Which is the reason I cannot stand ASOIAF or other fiction that gleefully touts how 'pragmatic' it's characters are for their moral bankruptcy. I see it as little more than the reverent glorification of stupidity.

[BabyPuncher]

If you put most of your inquisition perks into "Forces" then in the epilogue screens, Morrigan says that the inquisition's military is now powerful enough to rival kingdoms. But which kingdoms exactly? Some are clearly far more powerful than others. Orlais and Tevinter probably have larger militaries than Ferelden or Antiva. If I had to guess though, I'd say the inquisition's military must have atleast a few thousand men and women. 

 

Are you serious?

 

I know it's just an epilogue slide, but that sounds like a dumb design decision. The basis of the Inquisition's strength should not be determined on whether I want to hold more glass bottles in my inventory or fall off my horse less often.
 

[ThreeF]

You can view your troops?????

 

And here was me thinking I'd done a completionist run.

it's a little trigger next to the Cullen's office (where MP characters stand), the text there changes at least 3 times.

[alschemid]

it's a little trigger next to the Cullen's office (where MP characters stand), the text there changes at least 3 times.

 

[alschemid]

The basis of the Inquisition's strength should not be determined on whether I want to hold more glass bottles in my inventory or fall off my horse less often.

 

 

It is a pity the game doesn't give us numbers, nor allows us to see/interact with the army as a whole nor make more strategic decisions regarding the missions/battles/supplies/recruting. But considering it is Dragon Age and not a Total War game, I am glad to see something at mythal temple and adamant... dat siege weapons...

[Heimdall]

It's not equally forgivable.

When characters make mistakes that are completely tangential to the plot and themes, it's not really that big a deal.

However, when a story takes it upon itself to crown its characters pragmatic masterminds and, as you said, avowed military geniuses not only alongside stupid mistakes but because of stupid mistakes, it's a big deal. When a central theme of your story is how super-ultra-competent your Machiavellian character is, it's not going to work very well if the audience can see them for the bumbling idiot they are.

Which is the reason I cannot stand ASOIAF or other fiction that gleefully touts how 'pragmatic' it's characters are for their moral bankruptcy. I see it as little more than the reverent glorification of stupidity.

This is why I've never been able to take Loghain seriously, when the designers clearly lacked the most basic understanding of what they're talking about.

(Though in Martin's defense, he has the good sense to avoid describing what actually happens in most of the battles, and I seem to remember an interview where he admitted that he deliberately chose not to realistically depict medieval war or politics because he didn't think the audience would get it)

[Guitar-Hero]

We only need 0,5 so just send Harding

[Shahadem]

I'd say that there are probably about 50 troops. All of the battles in this game involve very few actual people. And Skyhold doesn't really look like it is capable of holding that many people.

[X Equestris]

I'd say that there are probably about 50 troops. All of the battles in this game involve very few actual people. And Skyhold doesn't really look like it is capable of holding that many people.

You can see your army's camp in the valley below Skyhold.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

It doesn't matter, because the Inquisition has the Requisition Officers. Each of them counts as a thousand men.

[Frocharocha]

I'd say that there are probably about 50 troops. All of the battles in this game involve very few actual people. And Skyhold doesn't really look like it is capable of holding that many people.

Well, it's a very  capable fortress.....

[thats1evildude]

Blackwall will comment that if you put blades in the hands of every member of the Inquisition, the size of the force would rival any army in Thedas.

 

Of course, not every member of the Inquisition is a solider. There are diplomats, tradesmen, scholars, spies, etc.

[AlexMBrennan]

Because game mechanics. This is a game that is centered on exploration so you have to go out into the field to do everything on your own

And a better game would present you with mechanics that support the story, not undermine it. Calling the inquisitor to do something only I can do is fine, calling me to collect some herbs that can be found 10m from where the requisitions officer is standing while telling me that I am the commander of a huge force breaks immersion. If you have to have as many banal fetch quests like DAI, do something to disguise this fact - e.g. Make the creatures you have to hunt down something other than defenceless sheep).

[Frocharocha]

Blackwall will comment that if you put blades in the hands of every member of the Inquisition, the size of the force would rival any army in Thedas.

 

Of course, not every member of the Inquisition is a solider. There are diplomats, tradesmen, scholars, spies, etc.

 

Judging by the situation of the Orlesian Civil War battle and the sofisticated camps and forts constructed for the war, i woudl say that Orlais had something around a million soldiers before the civil war.

[Aimi]

It's not equally forgivable.
 
When characters make mistakes that are completely tangential to the plot and themes, it's not really that big a deal.
 
However, when a story takes it upon itself to crown its characters pragmatic masterminds and, as you said, avowed military geniuses not only alongside stupid mistakes but because of stupid mistakes, it's a big deal. When a central theme of your story is how super-ultra-competent your Machiavellian character is, it's not going to work very well if the audience can see them for the bumbling idiot they are.
 
Which is the reason I cannot stand ASOIAF or other fiction that gleefully touts how 'pragmatic' it's characters are for their moral bankruptcy. I see it as little more than the reverent glorification of stupidity.

I agree, to a point.

As far as I'm aware, one of the primary selling points of Martin's books is that they are, in fact, more realistic than a typical fantasy story about heroes, and that ostensibly the characters in A Song of Ice and Fire are real people with real motivations doing plausible things in a fantasy world, with geniuses and idiots in equal measure. Many critics of the Game of Thrones series seem quite enamored of how deconstructive the show is, and how it frequently contrasts 'honorable' paths and 'pragmatic' ones, with the 'pragmatic' types winning the day. It's a false dilemma all around; most of the 'honorable' types do things that are both stupid and dishonorable (e.g. Robb failing to fulfill his end of the bargain with Walder Frey, or Dany backstabbing her erstwhile Meereen noble allies) and most of the 'pragmatic' types do things that are also stupid and dishonorable but they get away with them because either Martin doesn't know that they're stupid or he gives them lucky plot power-ups.

And never mind that world history provides a wealth of examples suggesting quite strongly that sacred egoism, backstabbing allies, and all the other 'pragmatic' and 'Realist' tropes, tend to backfire quite spectacularly...

It takes a lot away from the deconstructive, 'gritty' world to see the avowed geniuses of the setting act like idiots. Littlefinger plays stupid financial games that only work because literally everybody in the world, including the Iron Bank, is even dumber than he is. The likes of Tywin Lannister and Stannis Baratheon, ostensible military geniuses, make subaltern-level mistakes and have their terrible plans rescued by implausibilities. Hell, the only reason Varys still looks like a relatively smart guy is because nobody knows what endgoal he's aiming at, so nobody can assess how well or how poorly he's doing at it. Chanakya or Bismarck or Edward Longshanks would run rings around these doofuses.

So yeah, those sins are probably more serious, and worse for the quality of the works, than are BioWare's writers' relatively minor issues with military history.

But, y'know, at least he's trying. I'm not a fan of the series, but I do respect what Martin's goals are, in worldbuilding and scope, and I'm as down for any deconstruction as the next girl. And while the research isn't up to my standards, it seems clear that he has read a lot of medieval history, especially about the Wars of the Roses.