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Morrigan and her Mother


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#26
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Flemeth was a good teacher of magic and alchemy to Morrigan but that was all she was to Morrigan.

 

She was a bad mother, period. Most likely because the original, pre-Mythal Flemeth was a woman who was more focused on fooling around as opposed to raising a functioning family who then became vengeful towards men and fathers in general after she was imprisoned. Add that to Mythal and her tendency to dish out tough love and justice as opposed to being merciful and you have a very bad combination for being a mother. 

 

I'd like to think that Flemeth finally understood why Morrigan disliked her so much and it was mainly due to her bad parenting. 

 

But then again this is Bioware we are talking about. They are very fond of using parent-child friction and disagreements as a form of character building. 

 

There is one thing that I want to put out there though. If Flemeth is Mythal, that means she is an Elven Goddess. Does this mean Morrigan is a semi-Elven Goddess ? Does this mean Morrigan has some "Elfy-ness" in her ? Is that why Morrigan's eyes and Flemeth's eyes look the same ?

 

Also, why is it that everyone who is related to ancient Elves have yellow eyes except Solas ? Is Solas not in his true form ? You know, like how Flemeth was just an average old lady in Origins but was a full on GILF Dragon Lady in 2 and in Inquisition ? 



#27
teh DRUMPf!!

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 For someone as cunning and wise as Flemeth, I had to smirk a bit at the sad face she makes when Morrigan says that she was a bad mother.

 

 

Like, really Flemeth? You are actually surprised that -- after raping Chasind men in your little hut and telling your daughter you expect the same of her some day -- your daughter is none too fond of you?


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#28
Anaeme

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 For someone as cunning and wise as Flemeth, I had to smirk a bit at the sad face she makes when Morrigan says that she was a bad mother.

 

 

Like, really Flemeth? You are actually surprised that -- after raping Chasind men in your little hut and telling your daughter you expect the same of her some day -- your daughter is none too fond of you?

 

Lol..in DAo Flemeth was not a sympathetic character at all...she had a raging old hag vibe



#29
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Apparently avenging an elven god is more important than her own daughter. The Nerve! I'm putting her up there with Goku when it comes to being a bad parent!

#30
teh DRUMPf!!

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 ^ I also have to admit that I was kind of underwhelmed by the Flemeth reveal. At first blush, her being an avatar of Mythal seems like this huge twist. But hearing her rant about how she's out to avenge Mythal, avenge herself, avenge the world ... it reduced her -- in my eyes -- to an abomination (which is funny, considering Morrigan ruled out this possibility in Witch Hunt when it is arguably the most accurate description of what she is). Obviously being the host of an elven goddess is far more remarkable than hosting a demon or spirit, but being driven to fulfill the whims of the spirit inside made her quite a bit less interesting to me.


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#31
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I know one thing. Morrigan and Flemeth need to learn what word "change your old rags" means...especially Morrigan  :sick:



#32
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Wow, so much Flemeth "hate". I never viewed Flemeth as a bad mom. I even thought Morrigan and Flemeth had a somewhat decent relationship. Like when she first comes along with you in Origins, Morrigan tells her mom to not forget the pot on the stove or something like that because she would hate to return to a burned down hut. Then Flemeth says it's more likely that Morrigan return to find the hut and all of the Korcari Wilds swallowed up by the Blight, then Morrigan stutters on her next sentence with a sad expression, as though she didn't mean to offend her mom, she was just making a quip. The banter between Flemeth and Morrigan always seemed very playful, even I sometimes joke around with my mother in such a way. The only time I noticed animosity between them is when Morrigan found out about the body swapping, then she wanted Flemeth dead, which is understandable, even if she is your mother. Plus, Morrigan always talked about how she wanted to leave the Wilds and travel out into human lands, iirc, she just never felt ready. She multiple times even ventured into villages but always wound up going back to the Wilds under Flemeth's thumb. She could've left whenever she wanted, but she didn't. I don't necessarily think Flemeth is a bad mom either. We have no idea how their actual relationship was, besides the banter between them at the beginning of Origins, which again to me, seemed more playful, and less hostile. I think it was a bad idea for her to raise Morrigan all alone in the Wilds with no friends, yes, but it all seemed to be for a greater purpose that Morrigan would hopefully, eventually come to appreciate, even if she didn't completely understand her mom's motivations at the time. Then again, like I said, if Flemeth was really that bad of a mom, Morrigan could've left at any time, like she had done multiple times in the past.

 

I didn't really understand the Fade scene in DAI. Morrigan says she'll never be the mom that Flemeth was to her, and I was just thinking "well what kind of mother was she?" I had nothing to relate Flemeth's parenting skills to because I didn't know her parenting skills. I still liked the scene though, if only because of Flemeth's reaction. Any woman would be distraught over such an accusation, especially coming from your own child. I felt more connected to, and sympathy for Flemeth, than I did Morrigan. And now, after having seen the end, and heard the rumors about Flemythal wanting to give godhood to Morrigan, I now feel even more pain. She wanted the best for her daughter and got misunderstood and shunned for it, albeit that was partly her fault. I suppose she couldn't tell Morrigan the truth because reasons, the same excuse the Grey Wardens use lol. And look where it got both of them...

 

Anyway, I  don't think Morrigan will ponder over Flemeth's death for long. She seemed pretty sad that she was now a slave to her mother, but once/if she finds out Flemythal is dead, I bet she will be surprised, then a little sad, but then overall relieved, in that order, that she doesn't have to worry about Flemeth popping back up into her life, and trying to take control of it again. She might also be a little sad she missed out on that godhood business, but ultimately get over it relatively quickly.


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#33
NaclynE

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Flemeth was borderline ruthless. She was always secretive from your Warden, Hawke, her own daughter and the inquisiter. Heck, she tries to kill your warden depending how you deal with her. At least Morrigan tries to be honest in a beat around the bush way sure but at least she's treating her son like a son as opposed to someone that may succseed her.  I mean seriously Morrigan was treated like crap so she can become a better sorceress. Flemeth never really told anyone the truth when it really mattered. I mean seriously there is a butt load of unanswered questions out there. Why didn't Flemeth tell Morrigan she's part elven? What is Hawkes true destiny? What did Flemeth truly want from Morrigan's son? Seriously GRRR!!!

 

I am proud of Morrigan for being who she is and frankly she had every right to hate her and major props for telling her own mother that she will be a better mother than her since even Flemeth never did that to her mother.


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#34
Fireheart

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Flemeth was borderline ruthless. She was always secretive from your Warden, Hawke, her own daughter and the inquisiter. Heck, she tries to kill your warden depending how you deal with her. At least Morrigan tries to be honest in a beat around the bush way sure but at least she's treating her son like a son as opposed to someone that may succseed her.  I mean seriously Morrigan was treated like crap so she can become a better sorceress. Flemeth never really told anyone the truth when it really mattered. I mean seriously there is a butt load of unanswered questions out there. Why didn't Flemeth tell Morrigan she's part elven? What is Hawkes true destiny? What did Flemeth truly want from Morrigan's son? Seriously GRRR!!!

 

I am proud of Morrigan for being who she is and frankly she had every right to hate her and major props for telling her own mother that she will be a better mother than her since even Flemeth never did that to her mother.

I don't think Morrigan is half-elven. Just because Mythal's soul is inside Flemeth, that shouldn't effect Flemeth's DNA, right? She should still be 100% human. Morrigan could be elven, since we don't know who her father is. Hawke's true destiny? He has none. Bioware wants to be done with Hawke, I thought it was obvious... And Flemeth tried to kill the Warden? When did this happen? She saves your life, and is one of the "sane" people that see the threat the Blight presents. She only tries to kill you if you try to kill her, you can take her grimoire amicably, if that's what you're referring to. Also, I thought it seemed obvious Flemeth wanted to posses Kieran, and to obtain the OGB.



#35
Vilegrim

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yes, she will regret not making up with the women who only had her to take her body and destroy her soul, after brain washing her into agreeing to have that done...wait WHAT?  The only bad thing is that Flemeth died quick and clean, not as she deserved screaming and whimpering in her own filth and gore over the course of months



#36
Aren

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Morrigan can only be grateful that Solas has eliminated Flemeth, but her history is very sad, killed for nothing by Eltsi connobar and  possibly the Warden.



#37
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Much ado and flinging from so few breadcrumbs. Whatever is said about Flemeth's past is all hearsay. The truth is known only to herself and she has as much admit this much; what she had suffered had instilled a determination to live and attain her goals. Whatever it was between Morrigan and Flemeth, there is only Morrigan's words and the words of the young are oft shaded with misunderstanding, preconceptions and judgement. Flemeth's intentions and her burdens are still in the shadows.


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#38
Vasudeva

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Much ado and flinging from so few breadcrumbs. Whatever is said about Flemeth's past is all hearsay. The truth is known only to herself and she has as much admit this much; what she had suffered had instilled a determination to live and attain her goals. Whatever it was between Morrigan and Flemeth, there is only Morrigan's words and the words of the young are oft shaded with misunderstanding, preconceptions and judgement. Flemeth's intentions and her burdens are still in the shadows.

Well said indeed!  And also testifies to good writing and development by BW on the relationship between these two women.  I think you summarized it perfectly. How true this is whether in this game or in real life between children and their parents, how sad it is also



#39
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Cannot disagree more with the people who say Flemeth was a terrible mom.

To me she comes across as a tough love parent taken to the extreme. She's not exactly awesome, but in the end she wants the best for Morrigan and is teaching her that in her own twisted way.

Think about it. She's a betrayed and most likely half crazed woman fuelled by her own hatred of whatever betrayed her and the soul of Mythal inside her, a Goddess who was betrayed in her own time and murdered. And they both want revenge. And she's training Morrigan for that. Not very healthy, but IMO Flemeth is doing the best with what she has.

The biggest proof is the expression on her face when Morrigan tells her that, "I may be many things but I will not be the mother you were to me". For a brief moment Flemeth looks sad and hurt. IMO she's hurt because she realizes that no matter what she does, Morrigan really really hates her and sees her as an enemy. In that moment Flemeth probably resigns to the fact that Morrigan will never love her as a daughter loves her mother long as she is alive and that her's will be a thankless labor.


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#40
Vilegrim

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You are ignoring the part about Flemeth staying alive by EATING THE SOULS OF HER DAUGHTERS, and stealing their bodies.

#41
Lebanese Dude

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You are ignoring the part about Flemeth staying alive by EATING THE SOULS OF HER DAUGHTERS, and stealing their bodies.


Did you play DAI? Lol
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#42
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I have to agree that Flemmeth's whole a soul isn't forced on the unwilling is at best a lie of omission, as there is a difference between truly willing and crafting new robes that are meant to destroy your will when you put them on.

 

Also a lot of people defending Flemmeth seem to be ignoring a lot of the party banter and other talks that show how terrible Flemmeth was, such as using her mage daughter as bait in traps to kill Templars.



#43
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Also a lot of people defending Flemmeth seem to be ignoring a lot of the party banter and other talks that show how terrible Flemmeth was, such as using her mage daughter as bait in traps to kill Templars.

 

The alternative being facing them head on, risking herself being killed and leaving her daughter to fend for herself in a savage forest or be killed by Templars?


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#44
Raiil

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Cannot disagree more with the people who say Flemeth was a terrible mom.

To me she comes across as a tough love parent taken to the extreme. She's not exactly awesome, but in the end she wants the best for Morrigan and is teaching her that in her own twisted way.

Think about it. She's a betrayed and most likely half crazed woman fuelled by her own hatred of whatever betrayed her and the soul of Mythal inside her, a Goddess who was betrayed in her own time and murdered. And they both want revenge. And she's training Morrigan for that. Not very healthy, but IMO Flemeth is doing the best with what she has.

The biggest proof is the expression on her face when Morrigan tells her that, "I may be many things but I will not be the mother you were to me". For a brief moment Flemeth looks sad and hurt. IMO she's hurt because she realizes that no matter what she does, Morrigan really really hates her and sees her as an enemy. In that moment Flemeth probably resigns to the fact that Morrigan will never love her as a daughter loves her mother long as she is alive and that her's will be a thankless labor.

'I had my reasons' is a terribad excuse for parents. 



#45
Anvos

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People who can turn into dragons aren't really threatened by Templars.



#46
Ryriena

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Well she had an excuse too use her daughter as bait doesn't make a good arrugment to me.

#47
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Morrigan seemed to enjoy being used as bait. I really don't think Flemeth would risk her new vessel like that. If Flemeth felt the Templars truly were a danger then she wouldn't have done it.

But some no name Templars aren't going to be doing anything to Mythal or her daughter.

Flemeth...I honestly don't know if she really was a bad mom. Yeah by realistic and modern day standards she's horrible. But this isn't. Parents hit their kids all the time in medevial periods and shesl and her daughter are powerf witches anyway And aren't in real danger.

While Morrigan does view Flemeth as a bad mom because she used her daughter and manipulated her, Morrigan wasn't really afraid of her. She'd mock Flemeth. It honestly seems their relationship in the Wilds was that of mutual banter.

"Before or after I stopped laughing?"

#48
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I think the flak Flemeth gets is for for not being sentimental toward Morrigan. Morrigan always thought that Flemeth was using her because of Flemeth's cold demeanor  and the book made it a conviction. But Flemeth knew very well what she was doing when she was raising Morrigan, she chose to show her love with action instead of words by teaching her daughter how to think, how to not be afraid and how to protect herself. These are lessons from someone who deeply care about their child.  Flemeth made a personal sacrifice in order to teach her daughter how to protect herself and how to think for herself. And lets be honest, Morrigan turned out to be pretty good at all that and more, so Flemeth did an excellent job.

 

I never saw Flemeth as being evil, I always found it odd when others call her that.


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#49
teh DRUMPf!!

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 For someone as cunning and wise as Flemeth, I had to smirk a bit at the sad face she makes when Morrigan says that she was a bad mother.

 

 

Like, really Flemeth? You are actually surprised that -- after raping Chasind men in your little hut and telling your daughter you expect the same of her some day -- your daughter is none too fond of you?

 

I was just thinking this over the other night...

 

I guess what hurts Flemeth about being called a bad mother is not any kind of shock/surprise, just that she knows it to be the truth.


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#50
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I think the flak Flemeth gets is for for not being sentimental toward Morrigan. Morrigan always thought that Flemeth was using her because of Flemeth's cold demeanor  and the book made it a conviction. But Flemeth knew very well what she was doing when she was raising Morrigan, she chose to show her love with action instead of words by teaching her daughter how to think, how to not be afraid and how to protect herself. These are lesson from someone who deeply care about their child.  Flemeth made a personal sacrifice in order to teach her daughter how to protect herself and how to think for herself. And lets be honest, Morrigan turned out to be pretty good at all that and more, so Flemeth did an excellent job.

 

I never saw Flemeth as being evil, I always found it odd when others call her that.

I never saw Flemeth as evil either, just as someone who is very hard to read (that's why I like the character) and who isn't a good mother. Yes, Flemeth raised Morrigan to be a good witch, to be independent and unafraid but Flemeth was also incredible hard to her.

In DAO Morrigan told a story about a golden mirror that she stole as a kid because it was so pretty. Morrigan, who grew up in the wilds, had never seen something like it before. Flemeth was furious with her and smashed the mirror to teach her a lesson. Morrigan then defended Flemeth and said something like:

"Flemeth was right to break my fasciniation. "Beauty and love are fleeting and have no meaning. Survival has meaning. Power has meaning."

And that's who Flemeth has raised. She focused on the survival and power too much and neglected love and compassion.

Having Kieran has clearly changed Morrigan for the better.


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