None of that stacks up with freeing both the mage rebellion and Redcliffe from the Venatori. It helps that I don't really care what happens to the templars all that much.
That's not the Inquisition's priority; especially if it means tremendous risk including to the Herald.
You don't care about the templars? Fine. That's not a responsible attitude when leading an inquisition though.
That's not the Inquisition's priority; especially if it means tremendous risk including to the Herald.
You don't care about the templars? Fine. That's not a responsible attitude when leading an inquisition though.
The priority is sealing the Breach, and the method used is a crapshoot as to which one would work, although both seem likely.
However, Lucius, as I said, is clearly hostile to the Inquisition, and it's impossible to say what's inside Therinfal Redoubt. Alexius' trap we can at least discern, and his time magic also seems like something it's within the Inquisition's remit to investigate, since we first saw it in conjunction with a rift.
Never mind political suicide, how about actual suicide? The enemy has a fortified position, and Alexius is ready for you (brings back an old Hawke quote, nothing like fighting a prepared magister). Going to make contact with the Templars at Thereinfall is a much more reasonable plan. all things considered. A good leader needs to gauge his/her own value, and the Herald absolutely must stay alive at all costs 'til the Breach is sealed.
Hell, The Herald basically did fail, but was lucky that Dorian could reverse Alexius's spell.
I only go get the mages if I am playing as an elf, as they may feel like Templars are an enemy to their people and want nothing to do with them.
This.
When I first played I couldn't in good conscience choose the mages from what I knew at the time. And surprise, the Inquisitor gets into a terrible position by being thrown into the future. If Dorian didn't know how to reverse the spell then I suppose the world would be fucked.
People choose the mages because many are sympathetic towards their plight, yet that's not a responsible attitude for a leader by letting emotions cloud judgment. You can role-play an incompetent Inquisitor this way, but people shouldn't try to defend choosing the mages from a logical position.
The priority is sealing the Breach, and the method used is a crapshoot as to which one would work, although both seem likely.
However, Lucius, as I said, is clearly hostile to the Inquisition, and it's impossible to say what's inside Therinfal Redoubt. Alexius' trap we can at least discern, and his time magic also seems like something it's within the Inquisition's remit to investigate, since we first saw it in conjunction with a rift.
You don't send in the Herald to "investigate" the time magic personally. Without meta-gaming, Lucius is the far inferior threat to the Herald compared to Alexius.
You don't send in the Herald to "investigate" the time magic personally. Without meta-gaming, Lucius is the far inferior threat to the Herald compared to Alexius.
In fact, does the inquisitor even enter Therinfal expecting a battle? I am fairly certain that it was meant to be a meeting of a diplomatic nature.
In fact, does the inquisitor even enter Therinfal expecting a battle? I am fairly certain that it was meant to be a meeting of a diplomatic nature.
Nope. There wasn't expected to be any hostile action; purely diplomatic. Even if Lucius was adamant on refusing to aid in saving the world, with the Inquisition's influence the idea was he could be overthrown with noble support I believe.
I think the rationality can be played both ways and I really liked the templar storyline better, but objectively speaking, the whole game and character introduction flows much better if you recruit the mages (like if you recruit the templars, you literally cannot do Cullen's extended personal that ties into a lot of the mid-game areas) which makes me think mage-recruitment was set as the "default" path
You don't send in the Herald to "investigate" the time magic personally. Without meta-gaming, Lucius is the far inferior threat to the Herald compared to Alexius.
And if Alexius is mixed up with whomever caused the Breach, he's a far more important threat to neutralize, especially if he might be starting to bore out Ferelden's heartland.
That's not the Inquisition's priority; especially if it means tremendous risk including to the Herald.
You don't care about the templars? Fine. That's not a responsible attitude when leading an inquisition though.
You're not leading the Inquisition at that time.
And if Alexius is mixed up with whomever caused the Breach, he's a far more important threat to neutralize, especially if he might be starting to bore out Ferelden's heartland.
And from Felix, he and the Venatori are gunning for you specifically.
And if Alexius is mixed up with whomever caused the Breach, he's a far more important threat to neutralize, especially if he might be starting to bore out Ferelden's heartland.
Who better to neutralize a mage threat than the Templars?
Still, I think there are other reasons to pick the mages. When Cullen suggests getting the Templars to close the Breach by suppressing it, Leliana says that it's speculation and that they don't know that it will work. What they do know is that the mark can close the Breach with more power. So they need the mages to boost the mark.
From a story standpoint, the mages are the sure bet. The Templars are a long shot.
Also, once Alexius enters the scene, going to get the Templars also gives him time to prepare. Letting him run loose is another gamble.
The mages are based in Redcliffe and have access to the village. With a magister present there and Tevinter's reputation for blood magic, there is a great risk to the population too. The Templars are hidden in an old castle in the middle of nowhere. They are not an immediate threat.
All in all, I think either can be a reasonable choice.
Also, who cares why Corypheus wants to destroy the world.
Your job isn't to understand him, it's to stop him.
Who better to neutralize a mage threat than the Templars?
A mage with Mana Clash.
You're not leading the Inquisition at that time.
Not officially, yet you're making a leader's decisions.
And if Alexius is mixed up with whomever caused the Breach, he's a far more important threat to neutralize, especially if he might be starting to bore out Ferelden's heartland.
The priority is recruitment at that time in the least dangerous way to the herald.
I think the better path, as others have mentioned, is the one that syncs with your character in a specific play-through. My Dalish archer went mages because she could not stand seeing Fiona and the other elf mages as slaves to a Tevinter Magister. Although unlike my Dalish mage, she conscripted the mages because they were stupid enough to ally with Tevinter.
My noble warrior, however, went Templar because he didn't trust the mages.
The only thing other than RP that can affect my choice is whether I want Dorian or Cole in my party earlier, but given that I usually do the whole Haven attack thing right after Mages/Templar, it doesn't make that much difference in the timing.
I think the rationality can be played both ways and I really liked the templar storyline better, but objectively speaking, the whole game and character introduction flows much better if you recruit the mages (like if you recruit the templars, you literally cannot do Cullen's extended personal that ties into a lot of the mid-game areas) which makes me think mage-recruitment was set as the "default" path
I agree. There are choices that feel the game was meant to follow even though I don't always make them. Ex:Siding with Caridin, making peace between werewolves/dalish, siding with Caridin, making an old god baby, defending the mages from Meredith, etc.
I still make the decisions I want obviously because it's role-playing.
I think the better path, as others have mentioned, is the one that syncs with your character in a specific play-through. My Dalish archer went mages because she could not stand seeing Fiona and the other elf mages as slaves to a Tevinter Magister. Although unlike my Dalish mage, she conscripted the mages because they were stupid enough to ally with Tevinter.
My noble warrior, however, went Templar because he didn't trust the mages.
The only thing other than RP that can affect my choice is whether I want Dorian or Cole in my party earlier, but given that I usually do the whole Haven attack thing right after Mages/Templar, it doesn't make that much difference in the timing.
As already stated, I'm not arguing against role-playing emotional bias in making decisions. The argument is based on who to choose from an unbiased, logical perspective void of meta-gaming. It seems to me those who'd argue recruiting the mages makes more sense are the same who'd divert resources to save the council in Mass Effect 1. These people overthink the situation to oblivion to justify it when from what's presented the smarter option is obvious.
None of that stacks up with freeing both the mage rebellion and Redcliffe from the Venatori. It helps that I don't really care what happens to the templars all that much.
Saving the mages is a noble goal, but it is not worth undertaking a suicide-mission, given the Breach (unless it is your only option, which it is not). If you fail in your mission and die, many will suffer (including, but not limited to, mages), and the Breach will destroy any ulterior political goals you hoped to accomplish by supporting them anyway. If you care about mages, you should care about the general populace and their security too, because you are really not making anything better by helping mages if as many or more people are suffering to accomplish that.
And does Dorian's ability to reverse the spell really wash one's hands of the failure? Something to think about...
As for the brewing threat of Alexius and the Venatori ... well as the saying goes, "Another day." Or "Can't win 'em all." When you see where you're outmatched, the smart thing to do is walk away and try to find some way to even the odds for next time. In a sense, recruiting the Templars does that. You gain a powerful force than happens to specialize in neutralizing hostile/unstable magic. Now you've got an answer to the Venatori when you have to face them next. Walking into the lion's den is just not smart strategy. Like, ever.
It's not like liberating Redcliffe ends the Venatori threat, anyway, you just deal with less of them later. I personally find Red Templars a more formidable an opponent to fight (facing Knight Captain Denam at Behemoth status is hell-on-wheels) and would rather nip that threat in the bud than Venatori, but that's just personal preference.
You're not leading the Inquisition at that time.
No, but given the 'mark, you are a priority asset to be protected at all costs (at least until the Breach is sealed; after that, by all means, go throw your life away for whatever political cause you wish to champion).
Saving the mages is a noble goal, but it is not worth undertaking a suicide-mission, given the Breach (unless it is your only option, which it is not). If you fail in your mission and die, many will suffer (including, but not limited to, mages), and the Breach will destroy any ulterior political goals you hoped to accomplish by supporting them anyway. If you care about mages, you should care about the general populace and their security too, because you are really not making anything better by helping mages if as many or more people are suffering to accomplish that.
And does Dorian's ability to reverse the spell really wash one's hands of the failure? Something to think about...
As for the brewing threat of Alexius and the Venatori ... well as the saying goes, "Another day." Or "Can't win 'em all." When you see where you're outmatched, the smart thing to do is walk away and try to find some way to even the odds for next time. In a sense, recruiting the Templars does that. You gain a powerful force than happens to specialize in neutralizing hostile/unstable magic. Now you've got an answer to the Venatori when you have to face them next. Walking into the lion's den is just not smart strategy. Like, ever.
It's not like liberating Redcliffe ends the Venatori threat, anyway, you just deal with less of them later. I personally find Red Templars a more formidable an opponent to fight (facing Knight Captain Denam at Behemoth status is hell-on-wheels) and would rather nip that threat in the bud than Venatori, but that's just personal preference.
It's not a suicide mission; we're ambushing Alexius' forces while letting him think he's ambushing us. We have the drop on him. As for Dorian's ability to reverse the spell... yes, it does, because one of his reasons for coming along is his knowledge of Alexius' magic. We didn't prepare for Alexius' exact trick, but we prepared for something like it and succeeded.
If Alexius actually showed up at Haven and was opening Fade rifts, twisting time and teleporting, I'm sure he'd be worse than Denam ever was. For some reason, he doesn't. While the Venatori threat isn't ended, Alexius' unique magic is, plus the prospect of them taking and holding Redcliffe and the entire mage rebellion. The Inquisition already has templars, and if need be, we can make more with if we secure a lyrium supply; mages, on the other hand, are a non-renewable resource.
I think from a logic perspective, there are 2 things in favor of the mages: 1) other than Cullen, all of your advisors, IIRC, doubt that the Templars can actually help seal the breach, 2) leaving Tevinter and the mages in Redcliffe seems a bit, well, dangerous compared to leaving the Templars hold up by themselves. Now certainly the Herald seems safer going to get the Templars (although if the Templars can't help heal the breach, then what good is the Herald?).
Frankly, they let the Herald do all kinds of risky stuff for no real reason and so I'm not sure how to apply logic in this game. Why am I allowed to wander all over the Hinterlands delivering some flowers to a grave or collecting shards? That doesn't require the mark or my status. Surely, others could do that rather than risk me getting mauled by a Grizzly. For that matter, why am I in charge of collecting resources to rebuild Skyhold. But then I've always kind of thought the most dangerous thing for the Herald to do would be dump Josephine. I can see it now, you dump her and then Leliana appears and slits your throat. *Your Journey Ends...*
I think from a logic perspective, there are 2 things in favor of the mages: 1) other than Cullen, all of your advisors, IIRC, doubt that the Templars can actually help seal the breach, 2) leaving Tevinter and the mages in Redcliffe seems a bit, well, dangerous compared to leaving the Templars hold up by themselves. Now certainly the Herald seems safer going to get the Templars (although if the Templars can't help heal the breach, then what good is the Herald?).
Not just Cullen. Solas says that mages or Templars will do. And Cullen is an actual Templar, so he is not grasping at straws. Cass and Leliana only know that more magical power from the rebels will help because Solas (a mage) told them so; they are not speaking from experience as Cullen is.
I think from a logic perspective, there are 2 things in favor of the mages: 1) other than Cullen, all of your advisors, IIRC, doubt that the Templars can actually help seal the breach, 2) leaving Tevinter and the mages in Redcliffe seems a bit, well, dangerous compared to leaving the Templars hold up by themselves. Now certainly the Herald seems safer going to get the Templars (although if the Templars can't help heal the breach, then what good is the Herald?).
Frankly, they let the Herald do all kinds of risky stuff for no real reason and so I'm not sure how to apply logic in this game. Why am I allowed to wander all over the Hinterlands delivering some flowers to a grave or collecting shards? That doesn't require the mark or my status. Surely, others could do that rather than risk me getting mauled by a Grizzly. For that matter, why am I in charge of collecting resources to rebuild Skyhold. But then I've always kind of thought the most dangerous thing for the Herald to do would be dump Josephine. I can see it now, you dump her and then Leliana appears and slits your throat. *Your Journey Ends...*
1. It's pure speculation if the templars or the mages are more useful in sealing the breach. The only one who really wants to pursue the mages is Cassandra, but more out of pride than reason. Initially she scoffs at recruiting them; only caring once learning about Redcliffe's state.
2. Bringing "outside the mission" logic into the argument just complicates matters. We could end this whole thing now by saying the Inquisitor is basically a one-man army anyway and is in no real danger so why not go wherever they want? I agree though, it is kind of ridiculous that the Herald is doing trivial tasks like helping widowers by placing flowers on graves; just evidence to how poor DA:I's side-missions are overall, but that's another discussion.
1. It's pure speculation if the templars or the mages are more useful in sealing the breach. The only one who really wants to pursue the mages is Cassandra, but more out of pride than reason. Initially she scoffs at recruiting them; only caring once learning about Redcliffe's state.
I thought it was Leliana who really wanted the mages, not Cassandra? L is the one who flat out says that the Templars are an unreliable choice (though she also makes it clear that she wants to be supporting the Rebellion as much as anything else, regardless).
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