13 réponses à ce sujet

[Hair Serious Business]

Wardens are $hit! Here is why.

I dislike Wardens since DAO if there was choice to run away send Duncan to hell and never join them I would do it in heartbeat! Why? These guys keep secrets...for no good reason at all! Their joining,reason why they only can slay Archdemon...are all secrets that shouldn't be secrets in first place! Why? Because if people knew about it then a lot more would want to undertake joining a lot more would understand why they are saying that they are only ones that can stop Blight! There are secrets that should stay as one, such as Urn of Sacred Ashes now that is thing that needs to stay secret because people would exploit it way too much and I doubt Andraste would be happy for it...but Wardens's secretes? They simple shouldn't even be one. There is nothing that people could exploit or gain for knowing that Wardens carry darkspawn blood and that thanks to same blood they are only ones who can stop Blight.

Whole Wardens case kinda is same as that little kid in your school that goes emo and each time you ask him what is problem so you can help him, he just says "You wouldn't understand." not allowing to be helped and not wanting it seems even though just telling WTF is wrong could save him from that misery of solitude he feels and people would approach him more and then he wouldn't feel alone! Same is with Wardens, if people knew more about them then perhaps Wardens wouldn't end with "bitter ends" such as exiles all the time! Because seriously why would Inquisitor or anyone allow Wardens to stay simply because they say that they are only ones who can stop Blight? How about you say why in first place!? Yes me and you do know why but does Inquisitor? Does world knows it? No! So why would they spare Wardens simply because they claim to be only group able to stop Blight? Why would anyone just rely on someone's claims? To make your claim valid you need to give a valid proof to your claim! Claim alone isn't enough to make something valid! Before someone says "But Wardens have stopped Blights over the years isn't that proof enough?", no that is not proof to their claims of how they are only ones who can stop Blights, because without knowing about whole "Joining" people don't know why are they so special and you can't blame people for thinking "Who needs Wardens? What's so special about them? Anyone can go and kill Archdemons instead of them.".

Their "secret" is not one that could be exploited in bad way it is one secret that could save first themselves from lot of trouble! They allowed themselves to be "ruined order"! They keep secrets for no good reason except for "feeling special" pretty much like spoiled kid that goes "Nyanyanya...I know how to destroy Archdemon you don't dont...nyanyanya...world can burn but I won't tell how...nyanyanya !". I swear to God...Jesus...Maker...Andraste...all Elven Gods..,Stone...if my Warden ever comes in one of cameos and starts sounding as generic Warden "I can't tell you, Warden's business I'm afraid."...I will slit her throat in heartbeat for it!

[Sweawm]

It might be that it would seriously damage the Wardens if everyone knew their secrets. The Joining Ritual is pretty much forbidden magic and recruiting Wardens is hard as it is with recruits not knowing that joining is either an immediate or a thirty years or so death sentence. 

 

So if Thedas knew everything about the Wardens then:

 

- The whole secret rituals thing was likely introduced when Thedas was even more superstitious and "burn the mage" like. 

- They'd be persecuted and outcast by Thedas as a whole for drinking Darkspawn blood. Using something that basically amounts to Blood Magic would be frowned upon by the Chantry, no matter how well meaning the Wardens are.

- Recruitment would be down 99% most likely. The Wardens cultivate an image of being the heroic saviors of Thedas, much unlike the more pragmatic and ruthless organization they are. They certainly don't tell anyone until the Joining that IF they survive, they'll either be killed by Darkspawn or turned into a ghoul-like creature until they are killed by Darkspawn. 

[Hair Serious Business]

-snip-

Templars use lyrium to hunt down mages, they become obsessed with it and lyrium plus is illegal and yet Templars don't make secret of their use and everyone knows that Templars are "lyrium-addicts"...and once again lyrium is illegal as well! So no this doesn't justify Wardens even more for keeping their Joining secret...blood magic is forbidden? Well use of lyrium is forbidden as well but you don't see Templars in jails for using illegal stuff for their Order! So no one would burn mages for it, as I said knowing about whole Warden's true ties with darkspawn would actually help their Order and make their Order a real Order as well! Just as with Templars there would be "exclusive privilege" only for their Order when it comes to this kind of "Blood Magic"...because once again Templars use illegal stuff themselves that is allowed only to them.

Besides no that would not ruin recruiting for Wardens because people would know whats at stake and what are things that they need to give up for being a Warden. Same as with templars in which where everyone knows that to become one you are going to be lyrium addict for rest of your life and that without lyrium you will go crazy and even dead! And yet you see people joining Templars all the time, know why? Because they already know the consequences of becoming templars, while joining the Wardens is going in unknown dark without any warning first!

 

Sorry for comparing way too much Templars and Wardens but this was only way to prove my point of why Wardens's secret shouldn't even be one in first place, because Templars are way too much like Wardens, they both give up living normal lives, they both stain their blood forever with "ritual" that will change their lives, only difference in here that Templars are not being mysterious just to be "special snowflakes" like Wardens.

[Lebanese Dude]

It's certainly one way to look at it OP. Youll be happy to note that, if conscripted, the Wardens in your care outright tell you that they will not be secretive and distant from the people of Thedas any more.

By the way, you should space the contents of your posts a bit. It would make it easier to read.

[Dieb]

Personally, I really liked that they finally managed to communicate the die-hard-neutral status the Wardens in the books had, making them less of a generic heroes' club.

 

I think besides the "you must ultimately die the most heroic death imaginable", there are few negative sides about them as people/an organization communicated to the player in DAO. In the second game, it's slightly different, but only because unlike a lot of Wardens you meet, your sibling becoming one isn't exactly an upgrade to them; so it's more of a personal thing for it to be a burden.

 

Sure, the HOF him or herself is different because the players choose to (and Alistair is just as new), but I like how in DAI they show that a Warden is really just someone who swore to fight the Darkspawn, and whatever they think is necessary to do so. It doesn't necessarily involve helping farmers fight monsters of any other variety. (*coughs* another notch in the Blackwall board to me *coughs*)

[Raoni Luna]

What the hell? Just, no. Everything that was said is the reason I absolutely love them. Also, they are the best in all Thedas for the sole reason that they are not evil but they are not good, and they can surely as hell be evil. This put them above every other organization.

[Broganisity]

Didn't we have a thread about this awhile back?

 

The wardens started as a group of people who isolated themselves from everything they knew for the purposes of finding a way to stop the First Blight. Their solution was and is still a controversial one in Thedas: Blood Magic, though who knows what happened back in the Ancient times. The method of becoming a warden is costly both to the recruits and on account of archdemon blood not being all together an easy thing to come by...and that's not mentioning the whole 'blood magic is bad eww' thing that a lot of people got going on.

Given that the Grey Wardens can only have a relatively small amount of soldiers due the casualty rate of the Joining and the relative scarcity of the ingredients needed, you could then say that 'hey, maybe each nation could just have the equivalent of a Special Tasks Force consisting of soldiers who are 'Grey Wardens'!'. There is another reason the Grey Wardens separated from their old lives: Politics are crap, yo, just look at Orlais.

 

The Fereldan Army's Grey Warden Force would be less likely to co-operate with Orlais' Grey Warden force given that they are each still members of their respective societies and those societies don't exactly like each other all that much. Given the history of past blights, its clear that the nations of Thedas aren't keen on helping each other all that much even when Druffalo chips are hitting the fan: it took the Grey Wardens to pressure Tevinter into entering the fight during the third blight and...well, we saw what happened during the Fifth with Loghain barring Orlesian entry into Fereldan. Only reason that worked out well was because we, the players, were there to stop it.

By having an entirely separate organization, you're able to stay out of the political beehive far better than if you were a military sub-branch of X nation, and thus focus on what a Grey Warden is supposed to do: Fight Darkspawn, and end Blights. Save the -expletive- world, if pressed. Yes, Grey Wardens 'rule' the Anderfels by proxy, but that's only because the people of the Anderfels live wretched lives under a disinterested monarchy and- well, someone has to step up to the plate to keep the nation up. Yes, a sub-faction of the Fereledan wardens interfered with Fereldan politics (twice in a 200 someodd period, I might add), but there were always good intentions involved at least in regards to the Wardens fulfilling their overaching duty.

The Templars are basically what would happen to the Wardens if they were bound to nations. They would have to follow the policies and agendas of their nations, just as the Templars must follow the policies and agendas of the Chantry, and are bound to them by their lyrium addiction (Side Note: Lyrium is not illegal. Lyrium SMUGGLING is. Orzammar runs a lucrative trading business with surface organizations like the Chantry, the Circles, and Tevinter. The carta sneaks some off and tries to sell it under the radar.).

[cronshaw]

Wardens are $hit! Here is why.

I dislike Wardens since DAO if there was choice to run away send Duncan to hell and never join them I would do it in heartbeat! Why? These guys keep secrets...for no good reason at all! Their joining,reason why they only can slay Archdemon...are all secrets that shouldn't be secrets in first place! Why? Because if people knew about it then a lot more would want to undertake joining a lot more would understand why they are saying that they are only ones that can stop Blight! There are secrets that should stay as one, such as Urn of Sacred Ashes now that is thing that needs to stay secret because people would exploit it way too much and I doubt Andraste would be happy for it...but Wardens's secretes? They simple shouldn't even be one. There is nothing that people could exploit or gain for knowing that Wardens carry darkspawn blood and that thanks to same blood they are only ones who can stop Blight.

Whole Wardens case kinda is same as that little kid in your school that goes emo and each time you ask him what is problem so you can help him, he just says "You wouldn't understand." not allowing to be helped and not wanting it seems even though just telling WTF is wrong could save him from that misery of solitude he feels and people would approach him more and then he wouldn't feel alone! Same is with Wardens, if people knew more about them then perhaps Wardens wouldn't end with "bitter ends" such as exiles all the time! Because seriously why would Inquisitor or anyone allow Wardens to stay simply because they say that they are only ones who can stop Blight? How about you say why in first place!? Yes me and you do know why but does Inquisitor? Does world knows it? No! So why would they spare Wardens simply because they claim to be only group able to stop Blight? Why would anyone just rely on someone's claims? To make your claim valid you need to give a valid proof to your claim! Claim alone isn't enough to make something valid! Before someone says "But Wardens have stopped Blights over the years isn't that proof enough?", no that is not proof to their claims of how they are only ones who can stop Blights, because without knowing about whole "Joining" people don't know why are they so special and you can't blame people for thinking "Who needs Wardens? What's so special about them? Anyone can go and kill Archdemons instead of them.".

Their "secret" is not one that could be exploited in bad way it is one secret that could save first themselves from lot of trouble! They allowed themselves to be "ruined order"! They keep secrets for no good reason except for "feeling special" pretty much like spoiled kid that goes "Nyanyanya...I know how to destroy Archdemon you don't dont...nyanyanya...world can burn but I won't tell how...nyanyanya !". I swear to God...Jesus...Maker...Andraste...all Elven Gods..,Stone...if my Warden ever comes in one of cameos and starts sounding as generic Warden "I can't tell you, Warden's business I'm afraid."...I will slit her throat in heartbeat for it!

Your assumption that people would undergo the joining if it weren't a secret is flawed

especially given Jory's reaction at Ostagar

people fear magic and the darkspawn

drinking darkspawn blood in a magic ritual that may kill you isn't something a lot of people would willingly sign up for

[Alfa Kilo]

Please format your opening post for easier reading, thanks

[Aren]

Apparently Anora knows more about the grey wardens secrets than Alistair.....

Anyway if the chantry came to know about the blood magic involved into the joining ritual they will exterminate every warden from the face of the planet.

[MoonDrummer]

 

Apparently Anora knows more about the grey wardens secrets than Alistair.....

Anyway if the chantry came to know about the blood magic involved into the joining ritual they will exterminate every warden from the face of the planet.

 

Pffffft they could try. The Grey Wardens have an Oghren.

[Iakus]

Let's see...

 

The Joining Ritual is highly lethal and smacks of blood magic.  Yeah Jory's reaction was totally reasonable given what he saw.

 

Becoming a Warden dramatically shortens your lifespan, dooming you to ghouldom or a one-way ticket to the Deep Roads.  That would look great on a recruitment packet.

 

Oh, and slaying an archdemon means dying yourself.

 

the Wardens have certainly done some awful things in the past.  There's certainly no reason to trust them simply because they're Grey Wardens.  They're not all heroes, plenty are just fools or thugs. 

 

But for all that they are the only force known to be able to stop a Blight.  Until an alternative is found, they are needed.  And they need people to want to join them.

[DragonKingReborn]

Let's see...

 

The Joining Ritual is highly lethal and smacks of blood magic.  Yeah Jory's reaction was totally reasonable given what he saw.

 

Becoming a Warden dramatically shortens your lifespan, dooming you to ghouldom or a one-way ticket to the Deep Roads.  That would look great on a recruitment packet.

 

Oh, and slaying an archdemon means dying yourself.

 

the Wardens have certainly done some awful things in the past.  There's certainly no reason to trust them simply because they're Grey Wardens.  They're not all heroes, plenty are just fools or thugs. 

 

But for all that they are the only force known to be able to stop a Blight.  Until an alternative is found, they are needed.  And they need people to want to join them.

 

"smacks of"?  More like - is blood magic.  But that's cool.  Blood magic is a tool, like any other in Thedas.

 

They'll probably be satisfied with people having to join them if a Grey Warden says so.  But in general, am in full agreement with you.

[Iakus]

Blood magic still has a powerful stigma attatched to it.  Not without reason.

 

THe thing is, how effective a force do you have if everyone's a conscript, forced to join against their will?  It's liekly one reason teh Rite of Conscription isn't invoked more often.