44 réponses à ce sujet

[PhroXenGold]

I have to admit, I much prefer "no blood magic" to the awful implementation in DA:O and DA2 where nobody seemed to care that you are practising something their society considers to be utterly abhoerent [to note, whether or not it is "evil" is irrelevant. It is percieved as evil by the vast vast majority of people in Thedas, and even those "nominally good" groups like the Wardens who will use it do so only because they percieve the consequences of not doing so are even worse]. If BM is implemented into a future DA there should be consequences. Massive consequences. Like half your followers straight up trying to kill you without any method of negotiating your way out of it.

[Grieving Natashina]

I wouldn't agree about the followers part (as that's just too far imho,) but make it closer to BG2 if you went full evil: NPCs will randomly attack you in towns/cities or summon the guard which will attack you, the merchants could charge you a huge markup for goods or refuse to sell it to you at all, getting attacked if you went to close too to the temples of good aligned Gods (or the Chantry in this case,) ect.

 

I'm also staying out of the morality debate.  I spent too much time in the Story forums discussing the morality of blood magic.  I'm pretty burned out on that and on the Mage v Templar discussion after last summer.  

[PhroXenGold]

Maybe not half, but there should be some followers that should attack you. Some people should not be prepared to compromise. To them, Blood Magic should be as abhoerent as anything in the world, and they will not permit someone known to use it to live.

[Tremere]

I honestly think that the implications and the implementation of Blood Magic was flawed to begin with. As I understand it, it was simply a means to make spells more powerful and provide a Mage with a more potent source of mana outside their will. In this sense, how would anyone even know that a person was a blood mage unless they did something that overtly indicated it's use? (ie: stabbing the hand)

 

As for implications, I'm in the camp of those who say that it's the abuse of power that is corrupting, not any form of magic. Corruption finds it's place in a flawed character or sense of ethics and even then it takes the actions of the person in question to justify this. If you're going to proclaim that something is evil, you'd have to also allow for a counter-claim and this is where I think BioWare drops the ball on this subject. By the same token (and as was mentioned in this thread), Necromancy allows you to corrupt the dead, but somehow isn't considered evil.

[Rizilliant]

I hate that its just being said that its universally "evil".. In DA 1 and 2, we used it for good.. Though our followers clearly disliked our use of it.. People clearly disliked us being a Blood Mage.. However.. Using it for good, seemed to outweigh the "stigma" attached to it.. Its no worse than a an evil Chevalier, who uses his  ability, and societal stance for personal gain..

 

Its not the things itself, but whats done with it..  Should all Templars be labeled heretics, because Knight Commander Meredith went insane? How about all the Red Templars killing anyone/everyone in Inquisition? Should Grey Wardens now be outlaws, because some of them summoned demons? So many f our "tools" we use for good, are also utilized for evil, by those with evil intent.. Blood Magic is no different.. Its a tool, nothing more.. 

 

Its hypocritical to single out Blood Magic, when there are so many things that can, likewise, be used for both good, and evil.. 

 

It may not be the best example, but, look at how blacks, or gays were treated, and looked down upon just a few short decades ago...Narrow-mindedness has subsided, and good has prevailed.. They are free to be themselves, without any stigma, without having to hide from society, and can be proud of who they are, anywhere they want.. As it should be!

[Il Divo]

True, but I would believe most people didn´t want blood magic to be removed. Only that it would be more incorporated into the story. Choice and consequence like always.

 

That's true, but even on the level of what DA:I gives, I don't think I would have been satisfied with token nods to my player being a Blood Mage. I'd want it to be a fundamental part of the journey, which I think Laidlaw points out. Doing Blood Magic "right" is going to require a very different approach than we've gotten in any DA game, I find. 

 

 

I hate that its just being said that its universally "evil".. In DA 1 and 2, we used it for good.. Though our followers clearly disliked our use of it.. People clearly disliked us being a Blood Mage.. However.. Using it for good, seemed to outweigh the "stigma" attached to it.. Its no worse than a an evil Chevalier, who uses his  ability, and societal stance for personal gain..

 

 

I don't think pointing to the super hero protagonist of an RPG is a great example of using Blood Magic for good, especially since it's practically never addressed in the main narrative. It's like saying that canonically my Arcane Warrior/Blood Mage can kill the Archdemon solo surrounded by mountains of Darkspawn, which is ridiculous. 

 

Not to mention, to become a Blood Mage in the first place in DA:O involves selling Connor to a Desire Demon (at least for the first playthrough). So yeah "for good" and all that. 

[Uccio]

You can actually force the demon to give you the spec and save Connor. With high enough coersion.

[Zatche]

I hate that its just being said that its universally "evil".. In DA 1 and 2, we used it for good.. Though our followers clearly disliked our use of it.. People clearly disliked us being a Blood Mage.. However.. Using it for good, seemed to outweigh the "stigma" attached to it.. Its no worse than a an evil Chevalier, who uses his ability, and societal stance for personal gain..

Its not the things itself, but whats done with it.. Should all Templars be labeled heretics, because Knight Commander Meredith went insane? How about all the Red Templars killing anyone/everyone in Inquisition? Should Grey Wardens now be outlaws, because some of them summoned demons? So many f our "tools" we use for good, are also utilized for evil, by those with evil intent.. Blood Magic is no different.. Its a tool, nothing more..

Its hypocritical to single out Blood Magic, when there are so many things that can, likewise, be used for both good, and evil..

It may not be the best example, but, look at how blacks, or gays were treated, and looked down upon just a few short decades ago...Narrow-mindedness has subsided, and good has prevailed.. They are free to be themselves, without any stigma, without having to hide from society, and can be proud of who they are, anywhere they want.. As it should be!

A better analogy would be drugs or certain weapons/technologies. They, like blood magic, are taboos, because they can be dangerous. I'm not scared that black or gay people are going to control my mind. (Well, I do hear that the gay agenda is trying to make me gay, jk)

That being said, no matter how well we can argue that blood magic is not inherently evil, the people of Thedas still disagree. They are scared of Blood Magic and won't tolerate it.

[Il Divo]

That's awesome! Years later and still finding new stuff. 

Weird 'cause I usually max out my coercion but I've never tried that. 

[Uccio]

We are talking about the same Tevinter that thrives off of slavery and blood sacrifice, right? That's pretty corrupted. The Sith Empire also thrived for millennium despite the leaders using the Dark Side, which is also corrupting.  Just because something is corrupt doesn't mean it isn't strong. We only need to look at our own history to see that. 

 

I think what I am trying to say is that the notion of blood magic being utterly corrupting evil does not fly with Tevinter. If the corruption part would be so damaging as we are let to believe with the current lore the Imperium would have fallen before it had even risen.

Sure, excessive use can cause bad effects but so does drinking too much water. And slavery, well couple of centuries ago it was a norm in the real word, in some parts it still is so that is just a cultural thing.

[Il Divo]

I think what I am trying to say is that the notion of blood magic being utterly corrupting evil does not fly with Tevinter. If the corruption part would be so damaging as we are let to believe with the current lore the Imperium would have fallen before it had even risen.

Sure, excessive use can cause bad effects but so does drinking too much water. And slavery, well couple of centuries ago it was a norm in the real word, in some parts it still is so that is just a cultural thing.

 

I don't think that has to hold, though. Somebody used the earlier example of the Sith Empire, where you have a bunch of insane sociopaths in charge, still managing to survive, despite the corrupting influence of the Dark Side.

 

Corruption doesn't just mean "Raise demons, everyone dies" although that's a factor as well. Tevinter Magisters for example don't benefit any more than typical Andrastian nations from having chaos in the field, but that doesn't mean Blood Magic can't have a corrupting influence. 

 

Dorian himself acknowledges that BM, when limited to the self isn't the worst thing in the world, but for most users they tend toward excess. It's also amusing because even though Magisters practice BM behind closed doors, openly they're still forced to maintain the facade of "BM is wrong". 

[Rizilliant]

I never sold Conner's soul... I always go full Silver Tongue as PC however!

 

But i digress... I still dont see any "reasonable" explanation as to why the Herald, is given the option of "Mortalitasi" being any less evil?  How many "good" Necromancers, have we come across in anywhere? Defiling the dead, and manipulating his/her soul...?!  This, is not considered a Dark, or evil art? Not to mention,  necromancy no being available/utilized previous games? 

 

Even if the Herald himself couldnt abuse Blood Magic, i see no reason Dorian wouldnt have been... Someone! It just feels wrong, not to have Blood Magic in Dragon Age....Not just Dorian either.. The ancient Elvhan temple we enter late in the game.. Elves of old used all types of Magic, and Solas explains how it was more like breathing, than magic as we know it today.. The Dread Wolf wouldnt have had it in his arsenal, after millenia of practice? 

 

It just seems like development took the fast/lazt/easy way out.. Too many elements are missing from the game for my taste!

[Uccio]

I don't think that has to hold, though. Somebody used the earlier example of the Sith Empire, where you have a bunch of insane sociopaths in charge, still managing to survive, despite the corrupting influence of the Dark Side.

 

Corruption doesn't just mean "Raise demons, everyone dies" although that's a factor as well. Tevinter Magisters for example don't benefit any more than typical Andrastian nations from having chaos in the field, but that doesn't mean Blood Magic can't have a corrupting influence. 

 

Dorian himself acknowledges that BM, when limited to the self isn't the worst thing in the world, but for most users they tend toward excess. It's also amusing because even though Magisters practice BM behind closed doors, openly they're still forced to maintain the facade of "BM is wrong". 

 

That is my point, the corruption can only be present at certain level. Otherwise it would paralyze society. Therefore devs talking about how bad and corrupting it is, is not a proper reason to deny the player from it. As itself. Storywise I would just point to the fact that no one can actually tell if the pc is a blood mage. How many of the average joe´s of Thedas can even tell what a blood spell is? We are already forced to play a goody two shoes in Inq, whom seems to go along with andraste despite origin. why can´t we then play a responsible blood mage at least? (rhetorical question)

[Il Divo]

That is my point, the corruption can only be present at certain level. Otherwise it would paralyze society. Therefore devs talking about how bad and corrupting it is, is not a proper reason to deny the player from it. 

 

 

Okay, that makes a bit more sense. Still, the impression I got was more that, in regard to the PC, the reason why the devs denied us Blood Magic was that they would want to fully explore its RP value, not just offer gameplay benefits, with a small amount of story flavor. 

 

As it stands, I don't honestly feel like I've ever played a Blood Mage, in DA:O....or DA2. Even if they replaced the Necromancer with the BM, I'd hesitate to say DA:I would have been satisfactory. Basically, if BM is going to be done, it needs to play a huge role, which was a complained about element in both previous games. 

 

How many of the average joe´s of Thedas can even tell what a blood spell is? 

 

 

This was brought up in another thread, but it's not exactly difficult to tell Blood Magic apart. Players could immediately determine that Jowan was using Blood Magic after barely two hours of game time. Not to mention, all your companions are probably well-seasoned travelers to the point where it stands out. 

 

I don't suspect our Inquisition would still be standing if led by a Blood Mage. But then, I also thought Reaver/Necromancer were also questionable options. 

[Rizilliant]

Well, look at it this way.. A large majority in Thedas, wants all mages either dead, or locked back in towers.. Mages are being feared regardless of which mactic they practice.. The entire game we hear it, everywhere we go.. Play you Inquisitor as a mage, and the game maes no excessive mention of it, but a convo here, and there!  No more than i got for being Necro!  Mages are hated either way... Theres no reason to disallow Blood Magic

[Il Divo]

Well, look at it this way.. A large majority in Thedas, wants all mages either dead, or locked back in towers.. Mages are being feared regardless of which mactic they practice.. The entire game we hear it, everywhere we go.. Play you Inquisitor as a mage, and the game maes no excessive mention of it, but a convo here, and there!  No more than i got for being Necro!  Mages are hated either way... Theres no reason to disallow Blood Magic

 

Before or after we're murdered by Cassandra and Cullen? Not to mention, the Templar recruits, separate Templar faction, and just about everyone involved in the Orlesian game. 

 

What allies/resources do you see Blood Magic giving you to make up for virtually every group being after your head in the process? The point is that even in Tevinter, Magisters do not openly practice magic, as per Dorian. It's something that's done in secret behind the scenes, because none have the balls to deal with the potential consequences of openly claiming that they are a Blood Mage. If this has to be kept secret, in the heart of a Mageocracy, why should we believe that this would work for the Inquisitor leading the Andrastian Chantry? 

[Meave]

Before or after we're murdered by Cassandra and Cullen? Not to mention, the Templar recruits, separate Templar faction, and just about everyone involved in the Orlesian game. 

 

What allies/resources do you see Blood Magic giving you to make up for virtually every group being after your head in the process? The point is that even in Tevinter, Magisters do not openly practice magic, as per Dorian. It's something that's done in secret behind the scenes, because none have the balls to deal with the potential consequences of openly claiming that they are a Blood Mage. If this has to be kept secret, in the heart of a Mageocracy, why should we believe that this would work for the Inquisitor leading the Andrastian Chantry? 

 

you're so wrong... They practice magic openly. The only difference is what they consider blood magic. Only the darkest rituals with mass sacrifice is consider blood magic in Tevinter. Other stuff like rising dead or to summon a minor demon is a banality.

[Il Divo]

you're so wrong... They practice magic openly. The only difference is what they consider blood magic. Only the darkest rituals with mass sacrifice is consider blood magic in Tevinter. Other stuff like rising dead or to summon a minor demon is a banality.

 

Good to know. So this is why Dorian goes out of his way to tell us how Magisters actually will accuse each other of being Maleficar as a threat to remove them from power? That makes total sense. 

[Tremere]

 

I don't think pointing to the super hero protagonist of an RPG is a great example of using Blood Magic for good, especially since it's practically never addressed in the main narrative. It's like saying that canonically my Arcane Warrior/Blood Mage can kill the Archdemon solo surrounded by mountains of Darkspawn, which is ridiculous. 

 

Not to mention, to become a Blood Mage in the first place in DA:O involves selling Connor to a Desire Demon (at least for the first playthrough). So yeah "for good" and all that. 

With all due respect, I don't think this is entirely a question of how one becomes a blood mage... It's about what one does after they become one. While I agree that selling Connor out to a demon is implicitly evil, some may see it a just desserts for all the death and destruction he caused. What I saw in that scenario is the young man's true nature being brought to the forefront (in the extreme). ("I desire action...", shouting down his mother... etc) With that in mind, who's to say what he would have become if left to his own devices. I'm not saying this justifies the act, but it could be a view taken by those who choose "the deal".

[Il Divo]

With all due respect, I don't think this is entirely a question of how one becomes a blood mage... It's about what one does after they become one. 

 

 

Fair enough, although the point I was making in that instance is that already to become a BM in the first place requires dubious decision making, particularly if the character can't intimidate the Desire Demon. So really, the PC isn't off to a great start if that's the kind of decision-making he finds himself in before he even has access to such abilities. 

 

While I agree that selling Connor out to a demon is implicitly evil, some may see it a just desserts for all the death and destruction he caused. What I saw in that scenario is the young man's true nature being brought to the forefront (in the extreme). ("I desire action...", shouting down his mother... etc) With that in mind, who's to say what he would have become if left to his own devices. I'm not saying this justifies the act, but it could be a view taken by those who choose "the deal".

 

 

I think this would be one of the worst defenses of learning Blood Magic possible. We're okay selling a small child to a Desire Demon after having his father poisoned by his Blood Mage teacher when originally it's his mother's fault for not seeking out the proper instruction from Mages right across the River?  I mean damn, if that's what people consider "just desserts", then I'd say that's pretty evil in and of itself. Connor's situation is not of his own making. Pretty much everyone but Connor himself is responsible for the situation (Isolde, Jowan, Loghain, Eamon).