150 réponses à ce sujet

[Kynare]

I liked Cerberus when they were vigilantes helping the helpless. Now they're a little too mainstream. And evil.

[nos_astra]

Yeah, remember how they helped Jack?

[God]

Sure do. Granted, they could have been more thorough with how they dealt with her. 

 

Totally succeeded by the way. Making a powerful biotic that is among humanities most powerful.

[Quarian Master Race]

Sure do. Granted, they could have been more thorough with how they dealt with her. 

 

Totally succeeded by the way. Making a powerful biotic that is among humanities most powerful.

sort of. I doubt their intention for her was to become an insane fugitive who randomly travels around destroying ****. Not to mention her (completely nonsensical) recruitment can end up helping their adversary, the Alliance

In fairness, you are completely right and it comes full circle if you let her become a Phantom, thought it'd have been nice if she was at least more powerful than the others or something.

[God]

True enough. I don't think Cerberus went about their indoctrination of children very well.

 

They should have taken cues from the Spartan program in Halo. That said, most of the children were used as testing beds for the mods that were going to be put into Jack. It's understandable if they were treated much more disposably (which, in all fairness, they were quite disposable.)

[Vargeisa]

Cerberus doesn't make sense at all.

They're certainly organized like terrorists according to EDI. Members of one cell not knowing members of another cell etc.

 

But then... they have a logo... which they put on everything. Their ships, their buildings, their armor. 

Imagine if Al Qaida put a logo on all their stuff.

 

[God]

 

Cerberus doesn't make sense at all.

They're certainly organized like terrorists according to EDI. Members of one cell not knowing members of another cell etc.

 

But then... they have a logo... which they put on everything. Their ships, their buildings, their armor. 

Imagine if Al Qaida put a logo on all their stuff.

 

 

 

A lot of organizations are organized into cells like that, not just terrorists. Granted, we might actually know some of the people in another cell. In that case. In my instance, we aren't as compartmentalized. We keep ourselves in ignorance of what others might be doing while focusing on what we do and keeping it close to our chest. But it does make sense for more sensitive and possibly damaging projects (of which there are many).

[Vargeisa]

A lot of organizations are organized into cells like that, not just terrorists. Granted, we might actually know some of the people in another cell. In that case. In my instance, we aren't as compartmentalized. We keep ourselves in ignorance of what others might be doing while focusing on what we do and keeping it close to our chest. But it does make sense for more sensitive and possibly damaging projects (of which there are many).

 

Regardless wether you want to classify them as terrorists or not, the secretive nature of the organization kind of clashes with the logo, wouldn't you agree?

[God]

Regardless wether you want to classify them as terrorists or not, the secretive nature of the organization kind of clashes with the logo, wouldn't you agree?

 

Not if no one knows what it means, or if it means something different. As well, how often do people really get exposed to it? You're apparently able to land on several planets and the Citadel without most people batting an eyelash at the logo on the Normandy. You may not be able to hide the logo of the organization, but, prior to ME3, Cerberus was able to hide what the logo stood for. Only people high up or who had previous dealings with Cerberus knew what the logo was and what it stood for.

 

So no, I wouldn't agree.

[Vargeisa]

Not if no one knows what it means, or if it means something different. As well, how often do people really get exposed to it? You're apparently able to land on several planets and the Citadel without most people batting an eyelash at the logo on the Normandy. You may not be able to hide the logo of the organization, but, prior to ME3, Cerberus was able to hide what the logo stood for. Only people high up or who had previous dealings with Cerberus knew what the logo was and what it stood for.

 

So no, I wouldn't agree.

 

If you can give me a good enough reason for Cerberus putting a logo on everything that would be worth the security risk I might be inclined to believe you're not just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[God]

If you can give me a good enough reason for Cerberus putting a logo on everything that would be worth the security risk I might be inclined to believe you're not just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

If you can accept a good enough reason for it. As it is, I think you're not going to accept any argument I give.

 

If the galactic society at large doesn't know what the symbol means, sans people who are seriously in the know about the organization, then what does it matter if they put their logo on their materials? As well, they operate in isolated and remote areas of space that are hardly ventured to by most people. Sheer size and ignorance to the meaning of their logo (or better yet, the emblem of a more known front organization that people would know so as not to question the logo that they see on a ship or person or base, thinking its just an employee of said corporation, a corporate installation, or spacecraft). It doesn't even seem that the alliance itself is aware of what the logo means. Or the council. 

 

Jack knows, but she should since she has a history with Cerberus. As does Tali and the Quarians, who have a history with Cerberus. Mordin is able to make an educated guess about the organization, but he doesn't actively recognize the logo if you bring Miranda or Jacob along. Most everyone else isn't in the know of the organization itself. They are very good with distorting their information.

[Quarian Master Race]

The logo is displayed so prominently everywhere due to Rule of Cool. As a NGO paramilitary, Cerberus has no legal reason to identify its vessels or soldiers, and not doing so would most definitely be an advantage given the organization's clandestine nature.

That said, it doesn't seem to be a big deal. Most people in the galaxy don't seem to be privy to what the symbol stands for. The quarians on Freedom's Progress being able to immediately identify you can be excused as them having such a small, insular population that it isn't unreasonable to assume that most (especially military) would know about Cerberus from the recent attack on the Idenna. Jack has an obvious reason, but no one else seems to outright recognize the logo if you bring the Cerberus squadmates or wear the Armour.

Cerberus goes to great lengths to hide its activities. By contrast, I'm willing to bet most here wouldn't recognize the symbol of, say Islamic State, even though it is a terrorist organization that actively seeks out notoriety and is frequently shown in Western news media. It's not unreasonable to assume that Cerberus could paste the logo on everything and get away with it in the much larger Mass Effect universe, though it probably still isn't very well-advised. 

[Valmar]

Some seem to have this misguided assumption that by not labeling Cerberus as terrorists somehow must translate to support of their actions and cause. You can still disagree with Cerberus without falsely labeling them as terrorists.

 

Sure do. Granted, they could have been more thorough with how they dealt with her. 

 

Totally succeeded by the way. Making a powerful biotic that is among humanities most powerful.

 

Did they though? Yes, she is an immensely powerful biotic... but her lifespan is relatively short. The implant is causing her brain to degenerate. Though its certainly a good stepping stone to even greater advancements in human biotics. Jack seems more like a... proof of concept. She's the Paul Grayson of biotic potential.

[God]

Cerberus goes to great lengths to hide its activities. By contrast, I'm willing to bet most here wouldn't recognize the symbol of, say Islamic State, even though it is a terrorist organization that actively seeks out notoriety and is frequently shown in Western news media. It's not unreasonable to assume that Cerberus could paste the logo on everything and get away with it in the much larger Mass Effect universe, though it probably still isn't very well-advised. 

 

Oh the Islamic State. 

 

You know what the terrifying thing is? You're absolutely correct here (and it serves to further the mutual point I think we're agreeing on). 

 

Before I mobilized to my duty station (I'm a part of the United States Military Assistance Campaign to support the fight against ISIS), I was attending an event at my grad school where I presented my Master's thesis. It was an event largely informing college students and other scholars about the growing concerns of militant Islam, and there were of course some Muslim individuals there.

 

One of them was wearing a pro-caliphate t-shirt. That explicitly had ISIS' logo embroidered on it, and a message supporting it.

 

And not many people recognized the logo. Those of us that did informed campus security, but otherwise were left to stew in rage about it. And it's not the first time I've heard about it either. Lots of students are apparently doing it now. I think the word needs to get out what the logos and the messages in Arabic mean. The sad part is, it's getting more and more common. I haven't checked the recent polls, but I think something like a fifth of the Muslim population has sympathies for the Caliphate and IS.

 

Granted, if they all want to be martyrs, I can't help but feel pride that I've been helping them along for their cause by making them such.

[Quarian Master Race]

^Most universities will of course have no sympathy to your concerns about people wearing Islamic Fundamentalist garb, but I bet they'd stop people for similarly wearing, say Swastikas to a campus event commemorating the Holocaust (as they should). In fact, I'm willing to bet there are plenty of people in them who would blame IS crimes on US foreign policy.

Political Science departments in particluar are often filled with stupid kids, and even apologist professors. 

[Han Shot First]

 

Cerberus doesn't make sense at all.

They're certainly organized like terrorists according to EDI. Members of one cell not knowing members of another cell etc.

 

But then... they have a logo... which they put on everything. Their ships, their buildings, their armor. 

Imagine if Al Qaida put a logo on all their stuff.

 

 

 

I think the logo & uniforms would have worked had they been explained as not being Cerberus logos/uniforms per se, but the uniforms and logo of Cord-Hislop aerospace. That company was a front for Cerberus, but outside a few sources in the know that probably was not well known by the galaxy at large.

 

On that note I also think some characters in the universe should have mistaken you for members of Cord-Hislop on a test run of their new ship, rather than Cerberus. You could still have certain people like Aria, pull the "Oh, I know you're working for the Illusive Man" trump card if you tried to stick with the cover. 

[God]

^Most universities will of course have no sympathy to your concerns about people wearing Islamic Fundamentalist garb, but I bet they'd stop people for similarly wearing, say Swastikas to a campus event commemorating the Holocaust (as they should). In fact, I'm willing to bet there are plenty of people in them who would blame IS crimes on US foreign policy.

Political Science departments in particluar are often filled with stupid kids, and even apologist professors. 

 

As a political scientist, I disagree to an extent with this, and with the idea that universities would tolerate such ideology. There were a lot of politically correct morons at my school who take PC way too far (think the tumblr people who hate men period), but it was definitely capable of being liberal and socialist without delving into stupid territory.

 

In all honesty, most of the PolySci students were actually the most informed and most intelligent students in regards to this stuff.

 

Granted, it depends on how you label 'stupid kids' and apologist professors. While I wouldn't say any of my professors were apologist towards such groups, they did say that we are responsible indirectly for helping them gain traction due to our own foolhardy actions. 

[von uber]

The in game codex states they are considered as terrorists. That is in game lore. Any debate outside of it is pure head canon.

[God]

The in game codex states they are considered as terrorists. That is in game lore. Any debate outside of it is pure head canon.

 

The in game codex is incorrect with the real life definition. As well, terrorism is much more of... flexible word compared to other concepts. The Codex in this concept is not necessarily correct. Just because Cerberus are considered a terrorist group does not make them a terrorist group. Especially when the scope of the actual definition (which likely would not change) precludes their existence as one.

 

So no, it is not in-game lore that they are terrorists, just that they are (incorrectly) considered as such.

[von uber]

Doesn't matter though. The perception in game is what counts for the other races, and they define them as terrorists.

It's like how we defined the IRA as terrorists whereas from your American perception you were funding cuddly little plucky iris men fighting the oppressor. Whether you Americans (and by this I mean those who supported them) defined them as terrorists or not was a moot point to us here. It's the same with the council races - in game they are terrorist.

[God]

Doesn't matter though. The perception in game is what counts for the other races, and they define them as terrorists.

It's like how we defined the IRA as terrorists whereas from your American perception you were funding cuddly little plucky iris men fighting the oppressor. Whether you Americans (and by this I mean those who supported them) defined them as terrorists or not was a moot point to us here. It's the same with the council races - in game they are terrorist.

 

But they aren't. It's by definition wrong to label them as such, and essentially leads to a double standard, especially in regards to the Salarians (and possibly Turians). In fact, prior to ME3, we see almost no involvement between Cerberus and other races sans the Quarians. It quickly becomes sketchy with how the Council defines terrorism, or Cerberus, seeing as we've been given no information on them. The other races are wrong. We have no definition on their end to label them, so we must use our own.

 

And it's not like the IRA at all. Which openly targeted and killed British interests and supporters. Something Cerberus did not do.

 

And you really don't need to dig on the US. I don't dig on your country. I could acknowledge the uneven special relationship though.

[Quarian Master Race]

As a political scientist, I disagree to an extent with this, and with the idea that universities would tolerate such ideology. There were a lot of politically correct morons at my school who take PC way too far (think the tumblr people who hate men period), but it was definitely capable of being liberal and socialist without delving into stupid territory.

 

In all honesty, most of the PolySci students were actually the most informed and most intelligent students in regards to this stuff.

 

Granted, it depends on how you label 'stupid kids' and apologist professors. While I wouldn't say any of my professors were apologist towards such groups, they did say that we are responsible indirectly for helping them gain traction due to our own foolhardy actions. 

Meh, ignore me. I'm being unfair and ranting. In my (also PolySci) experience there were more bright kids than PC morons, but the latter were usually more vocal and involved, unfortunately. I don't have a problem with radical leftists as long as they aren't the type that will criticize the US/ West on racial/ women's issues or capital punishment while simultaneously defending the barbaric governments in LDC's that are 10x worse in those regards. Besides, there were just as many idealistic Libertarians who would hilariously criticize literally every government program as theft or slavery as there were socialists or hyper-progressives. Generally as long as people tried to be objective, I could have cared less about their ideology.

Douchebaggery like wearing an IS flag shirt to an informative event on the dangers of radical Islam is the type of thing that I wouldn't be surprised to see, fortunately I had some good ex-military/ State Department professors who I could frequently schedule for and avoid most of those types. Couldn't avoid them if you wanted any involvement in SG or other campus organizations, though.

 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

This is hilarious. God is obviously a Cerberus apologist. This harkens back to the days of ME2 when all the pro-Cerberus people were hoping for Cerberus to save the galaxy, only to have them turn into one of the big bads in ME3. Actions speak louder than words. They were the #2 big bad we were fighting. Or was that #1? I couldn't tell half the time. It seemed like they were trying to sabotage everything we were trying to accomplish in defeating the reapers. Hence: initially a terrorist organization, but they grew big enough to be a military power with Dr. Mengele performing experiments on refugees.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The in game codex states they are considered as terrorists. That is in game lore. Any debate outside of it is pure head canon.

 

It also calls the Reapers "a myth" in ME1&2, among other inconsistencies.