30 réponses à ce sujet

[DragonKingReborn]

So, a couple of nights ago I finished my second playthrough and I've been thinking about Sera and her friends.  Some time before Inquisition came out, there was a thread asking what we'd like to see explored in the game and myself (and a number of others) mentioned the Friends of Red Jenny, so I was happy when it was announced we'd get one of them as a companion.

 

Once I'd met Sera and had a feel for what the group was about, something about it was quite different from what I had developed in my head.

 

In Origins, we had one small fetch quest that involved no additional work/travel at all, but an interesting codex.  Basically a threatening letter advising the addressee do as they promised they could do.  It left me with an "illuminati" -esque vibe from the group, working in the shadows, pulling strings etc.

 

Then in DA2 we had the "clean the streets" quests, which was more overt, some optional work with in game reward.  Still had the feeling - to me at least - of this group that sat behind powerful people and were directing events as they saw fit, although with a hint of the nature that would be revealed in Inquisition in the line "We friends like a clean city to play in".

 

Finally, Inquisition revealed that the group is all about 'the little people', meaning common folk, not dwarves, sticking it to the rich and powerful that ignore and/or hurt them.  I certainly have no problem with this being the truth of the group, and maybe - as Sera mentions that it is different all around - it might not be the 'whole' truth of the group.  But it did get me thinking.

 

Are we seeing the Red Jenny that was always planned?

 

Are we seeing a Red Jenny that has evolved as it needed to and as Bioware saw that a number of players were interested in learning more about the group?

 

Or are we seeing an internal retcon - and I hate the word retcon, but can't think of a better one.  As far as I'm concerned, if they hadn't told us the truth about the group beforehand and then changed it, it isn't a retcon - that was performed to suit the story of Inquisition as they needed/wanted a connection from the common people of Thedas to the Inquisitor?

 

Or is it some combination of the above?

 

So, thoughts - did anyone else feel the Friends weren't quite what you were expecting them to be?  Or did I miss something obvious in the first two games that should have pointed the way?

[TheKomandorShepard]

To be honest i doubt that was planned by bioware i mean extremely secret organization that we practically don't know anything to suddenly well known organization.

Even goals seem different because i rather doubt that in dao what they were doing had anything with helping little people rather than some rly shady stuff.

[DragonKingReborn]

Was it a well known organisation, though?  There was the one noble who found out about it as part of Sera's persona quest, but other than that I don't recall it being discussed as widely known.

 

The different goals could be explained by the fact that it isn't a cohesive group with a singular goal, such as the Seekers of Truth, or the Grey Wardens.  As Sera mentions, it is about favours for little people.  Some little people need different favours to others.

 

The only problem with that is, what 'little person' would have known about the small painted box in the First Enchanters office during Origins and been prepared the threaten violence to get it (and then give it to Sera, if a comment from her is to be believed).

 

Regardless, can I take your post to mean you fall roughly into the "natural evolution based on story need" camp?

[leaguer of one]

Op, how can we say what red janny many not have gone as planned If we never new what it was in the first place? It can't be a retcon because nothing was ever stated about it in the first place.

Any long time bw fane would see red jenny like the Harpers from buldar's gate 2.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Was it a well known organisation, though?  There was the one noble who found out about it as part of Sera's persona quest, but other than that I don't recall it being discussed as widely known.

 

The different goals could be explained by the fact that it isn't a cohesive group with a singular goal, such as the Seekers of Truth, or the Grey Wardens.  As Sera mentions, it is about favours for little people.  Some little people need different favours to others.

 

The only problem with that is, what 'little person' would have known about the small painted box in the First Enchanters office during Origins and been prepared the threaten violence to get it (and then give it to Sera, if a comment from her is to be believed).

 

Regardless, can I take your post to mean you fall roughly into the "natural evolution based on story need" camp?

 

Well it seems that friends are known organization and if i recall correctly if you will take sera to val royeaux one of nobles will point she is one of friends also in one of war tables missions about party mention that they gained credit for destroying party so pretty much they are known.

 

And here as mentioned in dao group was more shady than that and hardly robin hood like not mention above.

 

Yes im in that camp here.

[DragonKingReborn]

Op, how can we say what red janny many not have gone as planned If we never new what it was in the first place? It can't be a retcon because nothing was ever stated about it in the first place.

Any long time bw fane would see red jenny like the Harpers from buldar's gate 2.

Yep, which is why I called it an internal retcon (as in, Bioware internally changed something they'd planned) and said "As far as I'm concerned, if they hadn't told us the truth about the group beforehand and then changed it, it isn't a retcon".

 

Also, wasn't stating that was the case, just putting it out there as a potential situation.

[DragonKingReborn]

Well it seems that friends are known organization and if i recall correctly if you will take sera to val royeaux one of nobles will point she is one of friends also in one of war tables missions about party mention that they were gained credit for destroying party so pretty much they are known.

 

And here as mentioned in dao group was more shady than that and hardly robin hood like not mention above.

 

Yes im in that camp here.

Hmm, I don't recall hearing the noble in Val Royeaux so I'll take your word on that one.  With regards to the war table op, wasn't that the one that leads to Sera's personal quest with the noble who tricks her?

 

I totally agree with you about how they appeared in Origins, which is kind of the reason for the thread.  Something feels different about how they're portrayed in Inquisition versus how they're portrayed in Origins.

[Kantr]

It has been 10 years since the events of Origins when we saw the Ferelden Red Jennies. Sera is the Red Jenny of Orlais. Do we know much about the ferelden ones?

 

The Nevaran ones are apparently mean.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Hmm, I don't recall hearing the noble in Val Royeaux so I'll take your word on that one.  With regards to the war table op, wasn't that the one that leads to Sera's personal quest with the noble who tricks her?

 

I totally agree with you about how they appeared in Origins, which is kind of the reason for the thread.  Something feels different about how they're portrayed in Inquisition versus how they're portrayed in Origins.

I may be wrong here but for sure i know there is conversation if you bring up sera but im not 100 % sure if that was about it.Im not sure (i think i got that after her personal mission) i know that mission was to embarrass him during his own party cus he was pr*** if you do that credit for that goes to friends so well they are known.

[DragonKingReborn]

It has been 10 years since the events of Origins when we saw the Ferelden Red Jennies. Sera is the Red Jenny of Orlais. Do we know much about the ferelden ones?

 

The Nevaran ones are apparently mean.

 

Good point, so you think that it is likely "always planned like this"?  And that there are just different people doing different things under the Red Jenny banner?

[leaguer of one]

Yep, which is why I called it an internal retcon (as in, Bioware internally changed something they'd planned) and said "As far as I'm concerned, if they hadn't told us the truth about the group beforehand and then changed it, it isn't a retcon".

 

Also, wasn't stating that was the case, just putting it out there as a potential situation.

Wait how are red jenny not a chaotically good group? It always lean that way from the start.

[DragonKingReborn]

Wait how are red jenny not a chaotically good group? It always lean that way from the start.

 

I think we're confusing each other....

 

I never said they weren't chaotic good.  All I was curious about was do people think the Red Jenny we got in Inquisition was a reflection of what Bioware always had planned out for the group, or if people thought the groups bio had changed (either abruptly for Inquisition or over the course of the three games).

[TK514]

I definitely didn't get a 'random cells helping the little people' vibe from them in DA2.  Instead, I definitely expected them to be a well organized and resourced guild that was taking over the shadow trades in major cities across Thedas.  It definitely didn't look like the Friends were clearing out the various thieves guilds of Kirkwall to help anyone but themselves.  So while I don't mind Sera's organization doing basically nothing meaningful, it certainly wasn't what I was expecting based on previous encounters.

[leaguer of one]

I definitely didn't get a 'random cells helping the little people' vibe from them in DA2.  Instead, I definitely expected them to be a well organized and resourced guild that was taking over the shadow trades in major cities across Thedas.  It definitely didn't look like the Friends were clearing out the various thieves guilds of Kirkwall to help anyone but themselves.  So while I don't mind Sera's organization doing basically nothing meaningful, it certainly wasn't what I was expecting based on previous encounters.

How can we get that vibe it we are only looking at the trees and not the forest. Remember, you were paid by them to take down gangs that show up....Who to gangs normally rob in the streets? And nothing said in da2 that they helped them selves.

[TEWR]

Sera's reference to playing with boxes makes me question what in the hell was so damned important about it in the first place that A) it was in the First Enchanter's study and B ) prompted the Denerim ones to threaten someone to deliver on the promise to retrieve it.

 

Yeah Sera says the Denerim ones were kinda.... shady IIRC, but if the only thing about it was that it was a child's plaything then I'm sorely confused. The box was made out to be important and then it's just given to Sera? Maybe it had something hidden inside of it that Sera couldn't access and the Friends didn't want the Circle of Magi to have it. *shrugs*

 

As to the general query, I agree with the OP that using the term retcon here probably doesn't work, because we had little information to go off of to begin with. What we did have was the woman in Kirkwall saying "We like a clean street to play in" and the note from DAO, with the Friends being very secretive if you don't respond appropriately.

 

I dunno if it's what was originally planned, but I do personally like the concept even if I also got the feeling that they were trying to eliminate rivals for some ulterior motive, like gaining control of valuable locales -- since both Kirkwall and Denerim are major trade ports. I wonder if what they are in Inquisition falls under a trope? For research.

 

Hell, for all we know what Sera thinks the Friends of Red Jenny are about.... isn't what they're about at all. Maybe she was tricked.

 

(I personally doubt it, but who knows?)

[DragonKingReborn]

Sera's reference to playing with boxes makes me question what in the hell was so damned important about it in the first place that A) it was in the First Enchanter's study and prompted the Denerim ones to threaten someone to deliver on the promise to retrieve it.

 

Yeah Sera says the Denerim ones were kinda.... shady IIRC, but if the only thing about it was that it was a child's plaything then I'm sorely confused. The box was made out to be important and then it's just given to Sera? Maybe it had something hidden inside of it that Sera couldn't access and the Friends didn't want the Circle of Magi to have it. *shrugs*

 

As to the general query, I agree with the OP that using the term retcon here probably doesn't work, because we had little information to go off of to begin with. What we did have was the woman in Kirkwall saying "We like a clean street to play in" and the note from DAO, with the Friends being very secretive if you don't respond appropriately.

 

I dunno if it's what was originally planned, but I do personally like the concept. I wonder if it falls under a trope?

 

Definitely - if anyone can provide a better term, please let me know and I'll adjust the thread title.  I just wanted to imply an 'abrupt change in established lore', irrespective of whether that lore had been disclosed to the player (which we know it hadn't).

 

Do you have a 'gut feeling'?  Were they always this disparate group with nothing in common save their station in life?

[Kulyok]

It felt like a retcon, yes. I had a very strong gut feeling that Friends of Red Jenny were Crows - this theory was confirmed by secrecy/the fact that Zevran's cronies had that letter/and certainly the Crows would want a safe city to play in - who'd want their prized assassins to be killed by some mad dogs at night?

 

And then it turned out these Red Jenny people are stupid pranksters who despise rich people, more or less. Add Sera's "lovely" character and the fact her quest leads to deaths of innocent people, and I'm out of here. I think they really spoiled a great idea - they should've used a different organization for Sera instead.

[Kantr]

What do we know of them during the Blight? Aside from them being secretive and wanting a box from the first enchanter

[TEWR]

 

 

the fact that Zevran's cronies had that letter

 

I realize the letter is found in the map where we meet Zevran, but was it found on his cronies? I always thought it was found on a dead body that was there before the battle, perhaps because the Crows killed a merchant caravan to use their supplies and wagons to stage the attack.

 

I loot the bodies after the battle so I really have no idea if it was lootable during the battle or not.

[BraveVesperia]

I get the impression that outside of shared contacts and pooling info, the Jennies operate independently. Sera isn't even sure who some of the others are. I guess that means they'll all have different goals and methods.

[Sifr]

I get the impression that outside of shared contacts and pooling info, the Jennies operate independently. Sera isn't even sure who some of the others are. I guess that means they'll all have different goals and methods.

 

This is the vibe I got from it as well.

 

Kirkwall's Jenny seemed to just want to clear the streets to keep the people safe from the roaming gangs of nutters running about the city, not getting involved with the politics of the city? Not that she even needed to, since (according to Meeran) the nobles in Kirkwall hired mercs to kill each other anyway? While you'd expect that the Red Jenny's would be more active in Kirkwall to protect civilians from whatever disaster was happening that week, I suppose one could assume that Hawke's presence as the city's resident almighty janitor made such intervention unnecessary?

 

Sera though has a clear obsession with taking down nobles and sticking it to them at any chance she can get. Since she's from Denerim, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she'd known or been mentored by Slim Couldry, who had a similar hatred of nobility and might have been part of the network? I think taking down nobles probably has more to do with her and her goals, than an actual tenet that all Red Jenny's follow?

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

I'm surprised no one has brought detail about one of the banter between Sera & Vivienne up yet, it's about Friends of Red Jenny being used by nobles to put their rival nobles out of the picture, and they're helping nobles more than little people. I got the impression that they weren't exactly good guy vigilante or the Merry Men who fight for the downtrodden, it doesn't matter which branch because the whole organization was just out there for themselves all along NOT to make things better for the little people, and Sera lack of full insight about her organization IMO.

[Big I]

I don't think it was planned. I'm reminded of Cerberus in ME1 and ME2; in ME1 they were just a fairly obscure mention from a few side missions. It wasn't until they came to write the plot for ME2 that they elevated it to the important organisation it became. I assume the same thing happend to the Friends of Red Jenny, although I'm still interested in what if any connection there is between the Friends and Aveline (as alluded to in MotA)

[Dragonzzilla]

The Friends in Dererim just could've been more extreme than the rest.

[DragonKingReborn]

I'm surprised no one has brought detail about one of the banter between Sera & Vivienne up yet, it's about Friends of Red Jenny being used by nobles to put their rival nobles out of the picture, and they're helping nobles more than little people. I got the impression that they weren't exactly good guy vigilante or the Merry Men who fight for the downtrodden, it doesn't matter which branch because the whole organization was just out there for themselves all along NOT to make things better for the little people, and Sera lack of full insight about her organization IMO.

 

Interesting.  Definitely haven't heard that one yet.  Thanks!