33 réponses à ce sujet

[Crucible]

Most people here probably agree that running without Barrier on the Elementalist is trolly and stupid. And honestly its hard to argue, barrier is easily one of the best spells in the game, keeping yourself and your team alive. 

 

However I'd like to offer some counter arguments to that way of thinking, and that is to carry a team through just pure damage output and CC. By switching out barrier for another offensive spell, you kill things faster, get more last hits, get more mana back and health back, and you're not left auto attacking half the time.

 

When you look at what Barrier does well, saving teammates from getting hit. The Elementalist can contradict that with his kit by making it so your teammates are never "getting hit" in the first place. 

 

For Example, combining the Ele two best spells (firewall, firestorm) offers so much CC by either knocking down enemies, or having them running in fear. The enemies are not hitting your team. Also this is where the other 2 offensive spells come into play.

 

One of the problems the Elementalist with barrier has is you'll find trying to balance everything, with barriering teammates while timing your flashpoint correctly. And when you're wasting mana with barriers that's a possible offensive spell you could throw out instead.

 

And all that goes into my next point, talking about Flashpoint, which is one of the best spells in the game. And as an Ele flashpoint/firestorm combo is your main focus. Where if you're utilizing those correctly you should always have firestorm for every mob. 

 

For instance each mob you approach you should be dropping Firestorm(FS) first using your flashpoint. And if you do it correctly most enemies will then keep getting knocked around unable to hit your team. Right after dropping the FS you should drop your Firewall. Again Barrier Ele usually cant do this, they're either forced to use barrier at the start or after dropping firestorm, and that takes a lot of mana, so you're left auto attacking with now enemies running at your team "AND" unable to cast your firewall. FW right after FS is used to get any enemies not CCed by the FS.

 

So where does your other offensive spells coming into play?, well one of the problems I had with running Barrier is I felt like it was holding me back from what I could be doing, I found myself auto attacking wayyy to much and having to wait out my cooldowns. Putting spells like Stonefirst/Immolate alleviates that. Stonefist offers you tones of ultility and CC by knockdown and stagggering nearby enemies. Not only that, is it does very good damage. Combining that with Immolate the time you'll wait between cooldowns is almost none existent. 

 

And again this is important, because you now have a fourth offensive spell that means more last hits = more mana = more opportunities to throw out damage/CC spells.

 

So CC more enemies more often, killing them faster, thus offering protection to your team

 

Not only that, is it brings me to my last point, because of everything I just mentioned, you'll now be getting more health back via Death Siphon/Staff?/ and rings. Because your last hitting potential is so much better. So survive ability is almost never an issue combining that with Guardian Spirit. 

 

To kind of show an example of this, I put this video up to show exactly what Im talking about, this is a perilous game with a bunch of randoms,

 

It doesn't help that there's a keeper, but again it wouldn't have mattered, you'll notice I get no Barriers throughout the game and I'm still playing aggressive in the front lines

 

 

 

 

   

[russ4ua16]

We had a pretty long discussion about this here: http://forum.bioware...-barrier-wrong/

IMO the CC build is far superior to barrier builds. My fav ele build is Firestorm, Stonefist, Wall of Fire and your choice of ice mine for damage reduction or fire mine for choke points/burst DMG to ranged mobs.

[actionhero112]

Several times in the video you get low enough that you trigger guardian spirit and produce your own barrier. You like that? You like not dying because of barrier?

 

Now imagine that kind of invincibility all the time and for most of your team.  

 

That's what barrier does. It isn't a "waste" of a skillpoint at all.

 

You know how many other classes in the game can do damage? All of them. You know how many can create barrier on their teammates? Two of them. Replacing barrier for a damage effect that every class in the game can duplicate is crazy. Especially considering mages have the lowest base damage weapons. 

[russ4ua16]

It does take a skilled player to make it work better than a barrier build so I can see why you might feel that way. I'm not about to enter that debate again though. Read the thread I linked. You might learn something.

[Kenny Bania]

Of course you won't need barrier if you're spamming firestorm every chance you get.

[fizzyash]

As a player who's favorite class is keeper....I love strait dps elementalist !

Static cage and firestorm cast at the same time is a sight to behold.

[Black Mambo]

I run Immolate, SF, FW, FS.
Never go down in Perilous, Threat & Routine are joke with that build.
Occasionally take FM and WG for a change.
But SF, FS and FW are a must have for me!

[russ4ua16]

Everyone, including myself (maybe more than anyone), needs to accept that just because they're right does not make the opposition dead wrong. Kinda like the speed run vs gold farm debate. Both sides are mostly correct. Just depends on what you value most.

[Primeyuri]

except you can use barrier for offensive by using it to make your fire attacks stronger.

[Dieb]

I know it's not as prestigious to "waste" a skill slot for something that doesn't do damage, but the old argument "if I kill everything, I protect, too" has always been a little problematic.

 

Just think about fire charged wraiths, or Templar Knights. They have super-fast ranged attacks that will cause devastating damage to anyone (especially us squishy rogues). They are seldomly killed (or sometimes, even spotted) fast enough to not do any harm. One omitted fire wraith can cause a whipe easily.

 

Not trying to patronize, but for example my Hunter build's sole straightup attack is Leaping Shot. I have Fallback Plan and Stealth just to revive people, evasion (i.e. not forcing others to review me) and step up Toxic Cloud which works wonders versus those enemies who barely made it out of the AoE. Leaping Shot with Rolling Draw launched from Stealth OHKs every problematic enemy, and the Hunter is a "normal attack" class anyways with all the Passives, so I'm not falling short on my DD role if needed. But I found it a lot more useful if I focus on key units & the team, rather than to just dish out as much as possible. Sure, I could Full Draw & Stealth, which would make me awesome every 25 seconds. But alas. There's always an Archer who does it even better.

 

For the general rule is, there will ALWAYS be someone who does crazy damage to each and everything. That is not a position you need to volunteer for.

[russ4ua16]

Build isn't about damage. The crowd control is what makes it great. You can have your three CCs and still get barrier. 

[phoenix fang55]

I Personally support Ele's not using barrier, if you want to run barrier, bring a keeper, they do it much better, they have like triple the passives that effect it. Currently, Ele is the only one that had firewall, firestorm, fire mine, and immolate. No one else had this much crowd control and aoe.

 

At the same time, if thats what you want to run, then so be it, just don't knock us people that want to run without it, There are people on here that have run perilous solo with Katari, so in the end, you don't need anything, just play smart, and have some fun.

[Dieb]

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying every Elementalist is obligated to use Barrier because it's availible to them. I was just giving my two cents about the "I protect by DDing" argument.

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I dont play perilous(yet), so I lack the knowledge and experience to really speculate. This said, when building my classes I purposely avoided putting barrier on my ele for the same reasons. Keepers do it better, and while the ele can do cc and barrier, id rather just bring a keeper AND a cc, damage build ele.

With my hunter I did the same, I went for a chokepoint build with toxic cloud, explody trap, midget gems build, maybe not perilous material but it works great on threatening.

There is no reason not to have a jack of all trades build either, ill never moan if someones ele is casting barrier for me, or if someones hunter is pure long range damage. The trick is to know your own role, and do it well. It doesnt matter what that is, this is a roleplay game after all, so as far as having fun is concerned do what you like.

You cant look at just raw DPS, or just survivability, or cc, the group itself needs to reach this equilibrium between itself to form a cohesive unit.

..then again, what do I know? I dont even play on hard lol.

[orskar]

I liked the idea of it but my experience of perilous pugging is that most teams are heavily glassy dps focussed so you need someone with a barrier to protect them all. It's only really in private rooms that I have a team I'm not having to carry or babysit.

 

I also find that as soon as I drop wall of fire or firestorm, I get aggro on me easily and without barrier it just takes one archer to target you and you are done. due to that aggro, enemies often rush through my aoe and come after me if I stay at range. I've found it better to drop firestorm/wall of fire and stand right in the middle of it with barrier protection so enemies are forced to stay in the damage area, combineing with repetitive spamming of firestorm from flashpoint and death siphons for mana.

 

with top gear (hok + best staff) and a lot of promotions (specifically cunning for ranged resist) I could see a barrier-less elementalist being great in perilous, especially with stonefist and winters grasp (for shatter) or mines all at once. however I find my own elementalist to not be doing enough damage to shut down big mobs of enemies before they can get a hit off at me (10% hok ring + dynamo staff + around 10 promotions each stat.) Sure, I could abuse los pulls and such but that isn't very fun and also relies on teammates allowing you to do so.

 

 

 

It's similar to how exposed archer is but archer has an easier time insta-killing anything that might be a threat. especially vs knockdown/elemental resistant enemies (elementalist 1v1 a big guy is a bit of a pain, barrier makes it easier but it still takes a while)

[russ4ua16]

I dont even play on hard lol.

Hmm





Hmm...

[Beerfish]

Wall of fire and fire storm are very good abilites, every effective but they are akin to flamers in me3mp, the most annoying abiites int he game for team mates imo.  I really like the elementalist but have never spec'd into either one of those for that reason.

[veramis]

I liked the idea of it but my experience of perilous pugging is that most teams are heavily glassy dps focussed so you need someone with a barrier to protect them all. It's only really in private rooms that I have a team I'm not having to carry or babysit.

 

The benefits of Barrier to completion time or DPS is not something which is easily quantified given all of the different possible ways encounters work out, but one of the main benefits of Barrier is that the team can focus on being DPS. It's kind of like when you get short duration invulnerability in Super Mario, the effect itself isn't a DPS increase, but your ability to do things you wouldn't do without such shrugging off of damage would result in higher DPS.

 

I had a talk with someone in a unnecessarily long debate about Barrier vs no Barrier in another thread, and I'm not interested in continuing the debate again, but I just wanted to say that the ability gives you and the team a degree of flexibility you can't get by going 4 CC/DPS abilities. There are indeed times where you can spam all 4 CC/DPS and reap the benefits of the spam and where Barrier may result in a slower completion time, but there will be times where your team is sort of taking damage, is being CC'ed, need to waste DPS to sidestep enemies, or even retreat or revive people, where Barrier really shines and will result in a faster completion time.

 

Again, nothing against people who want to play Keeper/Elementalist without Barrier for fun, but generally speaking, I find the skill to be too OP to skip, yes, even for elementalist, which has a stronger Barrier than keeper (50% from both chaotic focus and 50% from strength of spirits) and the ability to spam it more frequently than the keeper if the situation requires it (flashpoint).

[Rolenka]

I haven't played perilous, but I have read about how enemies hit so hard that trying to build guard is useless. But barrier isn't?

[veramis]

I haven't played perilous, but I have read about how enemies hit so hard that trying to build guard is useless. But barrier isn't?

 

The most guard you can have, is a quarter of your total hp plus any +maximum guard passives or items you have. Your damage resistance applies to it, but overall, it is a very small amount of damage absorption. Different classes will generate guard in different manners, but generally speaking, it can be quite good for legionnaire, but is kind of weak for templar and katari, the other classes with access to guard generation.

 

Barrier can be cast on all teammates and can be ~3-6k of damage absorption for ~12-15 seconds after which it decays to 0, but your damage resistance does not apply to it. The drawback of Barrier is of course that it decays over time and it may not always be cast on you.

 

Your base HP is probably about 600-900 depending upon class and level (unless you have very high constitution), plus lets say ~100-250 with health items and upgrades, for ~700-1150 HP.

 

In other words, guard is like a renewable quarter layer of additional HP, and can range from weak to quite good depending upon abilities and classes used, while Barrier is like having 1-5x more HP most of the time, with occasional gaps in time where you don't have Barrier active due to decay, it being on cooldown, or it not being cast on you. If bioware wants to fix the warriors, and they're too lazy to do actual balancing, just take any of the warrior abilities and replace it with Barrier. Suddenly you'll see warriors all over perilous.

[hellbiter88]

As someone who plays the elementalist almost exclusively, I feel competent enough to examine your argument. This will be based on Perilous.

 

Firstly, let's examine your proposal that pure offensive is better than a mix of offensive and defensive. While it's true that you can set up more cc and disrupt your enemies before they can land an attack, you're failing to take into account far-ranged enemies like archers and the demon commander and RTC. Archers will pick you clean before you have a chance to get to them, even firestorm takes a couple seconds before the entire group is disrupted. In that short amount of time, archers (especially if spread out), will pick you clean before you can run for cover. You have no fade step, no barrier; you have no way to escape before they whittle down your health and chew through your guardian spirit.

 

Not to mention your team will get destroyed, as you can offer no protection, and therefore you will be forced to tackle the entire group. Archers will simply stay at a distance, rendering your cc useless. You will have to leave your safe zone to pick them clean.

 

Now for RTC and DC. Again, they will murder your team unless someone else has barrier. Without fade step or barrier, you have no way to dodge RTC's lyrium trails or sword spin (unless you're really agile, but even then your cc is at risk of expiring while you're distracted), and DC will disrupt you too often for your offensive cc to be effective. This is why barrier (or fade step), is a blessing. You can either temporarily protect you and your teammates with barrier while you're paralyzed (DC), or you can fade step to safety and continue your cc (RTC).

 

Finally, Fire mine. Fire mine isn't a big part of your build, I realize, but fire mine and barrier go hand-in-hand with one-another using Chaotic Focus. CF can empower your mine to ridiculously effective proportions, and each skill (barrier and firemine) have numerous benefits even by themselves. By using an empowered Fire Mine, you can take huge chunks out of RTC's armor and health, and the burning damage will continue to help over time with each successful mine placement.

 

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In short, your build is good, but I feel that the risk of sacrificing your teammates and lack of fade step leave you, and your team, far too vulnerable to wide-open attacks, or close-quarter battles with RTC. Since RTC will simply march right through any cc you may put up, this places you at extreme risk. And if DC disrupts you before you can reestablish cc, you will be rushed and your team and yourself will die.

 

I would either include fade step or barrier, with emphasis on barrier. I would replace Immolate with one of these. While a lot of people like immolate, I feel like it's the least useful of the cc spells AoE spells. With a loadout of Fire Mine, Fire Wall, Firestorm, and Barrier/Fade Step, you can still establish highly effective choke points while still maintaining mobility or protection.

[russ4ua16]

Not trying to hijack your thread. Just providing another example of how well the elementalist can work without barrier. It's a fun build too.
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[Drasca]

While it's true that you can set up more cc and disrupt your enemies before they can land an attack, you're failing to take into account far-ranged enemies like archers

 

they will murder your team unless someone else has barrier. Without fade step or barrier, you have no way to dodge RTC's lyrium trails or sword spin (unless you're really agile,

 

DC will disrupt you too often for your offensive cc to be effective.

 

I would replace Immolate with one of these. While a lot of people like immolate, I feel like it's the least useful of the cc spells. With a loadout of Fire Mine, Fire Wall, Firestorm, and Barrier/Fade Step, you can still establish highly effective choke points while still maintaining mobility or protection.

 

Note, I totally agree with you on most things, but there's somethings wrong here. While I am not promoting his build, these statements you've made are false and it is a matter of L2P.

 

Ranged spells like FW/FS absolutely roflstomp kd / panic archers as well as melee IF you position correctly.

 

My teams can do ok without barrier.

 

RTC is super easy to dodge with zero skills on the ability bar. DC is a joke now. Pop spirit potion. Done.

 

Immolate is not CC. Should still replace though.

[Zorinho20_CRO]

I have to say that I am rather interested with this Barrier-less Ele build.Played many times as Ele,but always with the Barrier.

 

In fact,I am thinking to make solo Perilous run.I tried,but was only lv 11 and didn’t have Stonefist,which (I think) plays pretty important role.

 

Archers are tough nut,but with smart use of FW and positioning they are manageable.SF for those annoying melee units.

[Kenny Bania]

Immolate makes everything ok.