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[Basher of Glory]

During my epic replay I started a bard, too. Neither in Baldur's Gate plus expansions nor in NWN 2 plus expansions I got ever tied to this class.

Why? I can't say.

 

Nevertheless, during former playthroughs of SoZ and the occasional use of Grobnar in my NWN 2 parties I learnt, that a bard is a good supporter and probably the best buffer / debuffer.

 

Further, when I read the forums, there seems to be a lot of bard love by the community and a lot of whining in DA:O / DA II- forums about the "new" bards and their very limited abilities compared to the "old" ones.

 

Ok, as I wrote, I started one now as my KC of the NWN 2 OC.

 

She is level 13 now, the fight against Lorne was a cakewalk. So far so good. But something I miss....

 

All I do is to cast curse song and if the enemies are somewhat strong, the ironskin chant. Out of combat she casts automatically inspire competence, which helps in many situations, too.

 

If there is enough time, I buff her with ghostly visage, displacement and heroism and let her cast some spells, like Tasha's hideous laughter, dispell, and - of course - warcry and other typical bardic spells.

 

When I take control of someone else in the party her scipt makes her behave in a very annoying way:

She starts to cast EVERY available buff on herself, starting with this haven song and finishing with greater invisibility before she starts to engage in battle. Mostly it's over before she is halfways through her buffing orgy.

 

Let's make it short:

 

I have a limited spellcaster, some useful bardic chants to support and a fighter who need buffs before being something to be taken serious.

 

My intention is to develop her up to epic levels in MotB. Thus, I do NOT want to multiclass her or take a PC like the RDD.

 

Now I'd like to read about your ways to play a bard. What makes this class shine in your eyes?

[unclejoe1917]

i feel like the Bard functions as the ultimate "team player".  The draw of Bards is that, like other healers and buffers, they make those around them better.  Personally, I like to have all the glory for myself, so I'm almost always some form of heavy hitter or nuking spellcaster.  I was just playing a gnome illusionist in the OC of NWN1 following Daelen around and it just quickly got boring.  Maybe i need to give Bard another chance, I don't know, but the whole "support crew" sort of vibe I get from them, just doesn't appeal to me. I'm also a middle child who demands to be the center of attention, but this isn't a psychology forum so.......

[Arkalezth]

Bard is one of, if not -the- best support class in the game, but that's just a part of it. You should play it primarily as a spellsword: buff up and then proceed to smash things on the face. In the meantime, use Curse Song to debuff strong enemies or large groups, and always keep an inspiration active, the one that's most useful to your party at the moment. Just imagine it as an eldritch knight with some extra abilities and less spells.

 

That's pretty much it. It's possible to play as a pure support character, with controlling spells and the like, but you'll be weaker that way.

 

Bard guide: http://nwn2db.com/build/?164142 (Most of the meat is in the "notes" section).

[Basher of Glory]

As I see in the various guides, they differ a bit in regard of the branch dualwield / finesse or STR / AB.

 

In my current game it would be hard to go dualwield because of the rare feats she gains. So I guess, the more common advice would be to go STR / AB, right?

[Arkalezth]

Yeah, STR based with 16 CHA (just to be able to cast level 6 spells). You can do pretty much anything, but that's generally the most effective way.

 

The guide I linked is good, but I can't say about others. If you're looking at a guide on GameFAQs or the like, take what it says with a grain of salt. There are exceptions, but those guides are often bad, and there isn't a comments section to warn readers about it.

[unclejoe1917]

Bard is one of, if not -the- best support class in the game, but that's just a part of it. You should play it primarily as a spellsword: buff up and then proceed to smash things on the face. In the meantime, use Curse Song to debuff strong enemies or large groups, and always keep an inspiration active, the one that's most useful to your party at the moment. Just imagine it as an eldritch knight with some extra abilities and less spells.

 

That's pretty much it. It's possible to play as a pure support character, with controlling spells and the like, but you'll be weaker that way.

 

Bard guide: http://nwn2db.com/build/?164142 (Most of the meat is in the "notes" section).

Can't argue with that.  I just don't like playing them myself.  I think that's my issue with paladins also.  If my objective is to win via bashing and gashing, I just assume be buff rather than have to buff myself.  As far as just having a bard around, NWN1 was awesome as far as being able to hang with the loveable Deekin or sultry Sharwyn.  I would shank Grobnar on first sight if NWN2 gave me that option though and if there were any justice it would shift my alignment toward lawful and good. 

[Jfoxtail]

I think Bard is a "love them or hate them" sort of class. Disclaimer ~ frankly I fall into the hate them cross section. 

 

I have no doubt at all that they can be effective if played correctly....

 

...but Eldritch Knight frankly replaced the last motivation I ever had to play Bard. If you want to play a spell sword - play a spell sword. That's my preference anyway. If you want to play a skill monkey, build with rogue. If you want access to buffs.. have a mage and cleric in your party. 

 

Bard has a number of huge benefits but I find the the mechanics tedious; yet I don't with the EK/Mage.

 

I have played on occasion my "Skald" (Bard/Barbarian/Red Dragon Disciple) and "Elreth Valuuthra" Assassin (Bard/Assassin/Shadow dancer) in NWN1 and NWN2. They are fun good builds but there are downsides.

 

1) Spell choice limitations ~ having to use scrolls for some of the best spells. Not so with EK other builds

 

2) Alignment restriction which in the OC (and some other mods) actually can impact your choice of paths due to the way the Neverwinter (and other mods) quests are written. Not so with EK other builds.

 

<<Chaotic Neutral is frankly the single most difficult alignment to roleplay well>>

 

3) Armor class is always low at lower levels ~ especially for a party buffer and 2ndary melee option. True of all arcane builds.

 

4) I always struggle with stat spread playing Bards.. Maybe its just me but I seem to agonize over building CHA, STR, DEX where as with other builds my stat points seem more purified. 

 

However more power to the Bard fans as you will...

 

...just not for me...

[Basher of Glory]

Can't argue with that.  I just don't like playing them myself.  I think that's my issue with paladins also.  If my objective is to win via bashing and gashing, I just assume be buff rather than have to buff myself.  As far as just having a bard around, NWN1 was awesome as far as being able to hang with the loveable Deekin or sultry Sharwyn.  I would shank Grobnar on first sight if NWN2 gave me that option though and if there were any justice it would shift my alignment toward lawful and good. 

When I had to use Grobnar because of certain quests, I learnt at that time about the use of a bard (first playthrough in 2006).

 

But then.... I never could bring myself to have HIM around... all the time. He is just sooo annoyingly unlikable for me. That does not mean, that his character was badly written...rather the contrary if the writer wanted to create a royal PITA to show us, that a dev can take revenge for forum flamings just by giving us a Grobnar instead of a Sharwyn....

 

In the entire OC I agreed a single time with Bishop, when he called Grobnar a "....worthless halfman".

It is really a pity that the game limits us in our decisions about what to do with certain characters....

 

But back to topic:

 

Playing along with my bard, who has some power now at lvl 13, it seems, that most fights are unbelievable short compared to other party compositions.

I guess, this bard stuff has a certain influence after all.

[unclejoe1917]

I think Bard is a "love them or hate them" sort of class. Disclaimer ~ frankly I fall into the hate them cross section. 

 

I have no doubt at all that they can be effective if played correctly....

 

...but Eldritch Knight frankly replaced the last motivation I ever had to play Bard. If you want to play a spell sword - play a spell sword. That's my preference anyway. If you want to play a skill monkey, build with rogue. If you want access to buffs.. have a mage and cleric in your party. 

 

Bard has a number of huge benefits but I find the the mechanics tedious; yet I don't with the EK/Mage.

 

I have played on occasion my "Skald" (Bard/Barbarian/Red Dragon Disciple) and "Elreth Valuuthra" Assassin (Bard/Assassin/Shadow dancer) in NWN1 and NWN2. They are fun good builds but there are downsides.

 

1) Spell choice limitations ~ having to use scrolls for some of the best spells. Not so with EK other builds

 

2) Alignment restriction which in the OC (and some other mods) actually can impact your choice of paths due to the way the Neverwinter (and other mods) quests are written. Not so with EK other builds.

 

<<Chaotic Neutral is frankly the single most difficult alignment to roleplay well>>

 

3) Armor class is always low at lower levels ~ especially for a party buffer and 2ndary melee option. True of all arcane builds.

 

4) I always struggle with stat spread playing Bards.. Maybe its just me but I seem to agonize over building CHA, STR, DEX where as with other builds my stat points seem more purified. 

 

However more power to the Bard fans as you will...

 

...just not for me...

You think very much like I do.  I love having those types around, but they are just tedious to manage as your PC.  I disagree about Chaotic Neutral.  Maybe it just suits my personality, but it pretty much just means do whatever suits you.  It allows you to mercilessly hack one thing to pieces, while showing a soft heart to another, mostly depending on your mood.  I can express a soft spot for my NWN2 crush Qara while wanting to kill Grobnar on sight.

 

When I had to use Grobnar because of certain quests, I learnt at that time about the use of a bard (first playthrough in 2006).

 

But then.... I never could bring myself to have HIM around... all the time. He is just sooo annoyingly unlikable for me. That does not mean, that his character was badly written...rather the contrary if the writer wanted to create a royal PITA to show us, that a dev can take revenge for forum flamings just by giving us a Grobnar instead of a Sharwyn....

 

In the entire OC I agreed a single time with Bishop, when he called Grobnar a "....worthless halfman".

It is really a pity that the game limits us in our decisions about what to do with certain characters....

 

But back to topic:

 

Playing along with my bard, who has some power now at lvl 13, it seems, that most fights are unbelievable short compared to other party compositions.

I guess, this bard stuff has a certain influence after all.

Despite my last post about how I don't like buffers, I immediately had to go start a run through the OC as a Bard.  I'm a full drow with a good heart.  My plan is to build my drow bard to my specs, then just not play him.  I will instead pretty much handle Kelghar and Qara as though they are my PCs except during conversation. The bard can just act on autopilot and do his thing while I get blood and fire on my hands. 

[Arkalezth]

I don't get all that "tedious to play" stuff. If it's all buffers, fine (there are fast buffing mods, BTW), but just bards? For starters, they need less buffs than other classes to work properly.

 

As for that list of cons, some of which are rather subjective, you could also make a (likely longer) list of pros. To each their own, but it's objectively one of the best classes in the game.

[unclejoe1917]

I don't get all that "tedious to play" stuff. If it's all buffers, fine (there are fast buffing mods, BTW), but just bards? For starters, they need less buffs than other classes to work properly.

 

As for that list of cons, some of which are rather subjective, you could also make a (likely longer) list of pros. To each their own, but it's objectively one of the best classes in the game.

It really is and I think I'm probably coming off as being more down on them than I mean to sound.  In fact, they SHOULD even fit my personality type as I can be kind of a ham and am fearless in on stage/public speaking situations.  I just don't know why that hasn't translated to the enjoyment of their game play. I'm really hoping this new run through of the OC with my drow bard opens up my heart.  Believe me, I really want to see things you way and I really want to embrace the bard.  So far, it just hasn't clicked after all the years I've owned these games. 

[Thorsson64]

The point about Bards is that you don't need dozens of buffs, like EKs or Clerics - three or four and Curse Song and little will stand in your way.

 

Plus you will be brilliant at all the discussion skills without having to invest many points in them.

[Jfoxtail]

I do not disagree that all buffers need to buff... 

 

Frankly as I say mine is purely an opinion ; not factual. Its a love-em or hate em thing. Purely subjective.

 

Buffing is one of only 4 things that "just don't appeal to me". Its not just the #1 point by priority ~ more just one the #4 things that get in my way mentally... whereas The Wiz/EK is a Wizard still and I enjoy them more. Equal measure to all above.

 

But all the power to bard lovers... go with it.

 

I have tired numerous times and just don't sync with it. 

[Arkalezth]

For what it's worth: http://www.nexusmods...ter2/mods/197/?

[Basher of Glory]

Well, all honours to mods like these, but sometimes I want to play through the game as it was meant to be played.

 

BTW, before this mod appeared, I made something similar in my toolset.  The idea was not mine, it came from NWN 1 / SoU, in which a so called sequencer-robe could be acquired. This device could be "programmed" with the preferred buffs and made buffing a question of a second. I just wonder, why this idea was not implemented in NWN 2.

 

Back to topic:

 

I believe, that the scripts which fire off, when a character is controlled by the AI show us, how this character should be handled in the opinion of the devs.

Now, let your bard alone and take control of someone else. What happens?

 

I already wrote about this in a former post:

The bard-ai starts a buffing-orgy, while the others struggle in battle. The ai will use EVERY available buff / protection spell / chant, before the bard starts to take part in fighting. Mostly it's over before she finished her last spell / chant.

 

This is especially annoying when Grobnar is the bard, because (of his short legs?) he is mostly notoriously behind. Now, when he finally arrives and would say "did I miss anything", then that would be just what I needed

[Arkalezth]

First of all, TonyK's AI mod improves the AI significantly and got some of its features added to the ummoded game (so you could say the game is meant to be played with it). Full version here: http://neverwinterva...d-monster-ai-22

I tend to control the main character and let the AI handle companions most of the time. The AI is far from perfect, but you can make it work decently enough with the proper settings. Regarding your specific problem, there's an option called "casting mode" or similar, which is set to "overkill" by default. Change it to "scaled" if you still want the AI to cast some spells, or to "no casting" if you prefer to do it manually. "No casting" may also prevent the bard from using songs and inspirations, though; I don't remember for sure.

If "infinite buffs" are on, the bard will use inspirations; usually courage (maybe defence at times, I don't remember) when in combat, and regeneration or competence when not, depending on whether you're at full HP. As for songs, I think they depend on the "use special abilities" option, but I'd have to check it out.

Also, at least with TonyK's AI installed, you can order a companion through the right click menu to buff him/herself or the party, and choose between full buffs or only long-lasting ones.

[Basher of Glory]

I have Tony K's mod since the very first version   and agree: It makes gameplay by any account acceptable in regard of the AI.

Unfortunately the devs of DA:I seemingly never heard of it (for this flame they will replace Sera with Grobnar in a sequel).

 

As far as I can say would a lowering of the spell casting behaviour not prevent the caster from buffing herself up to the hilt.

 

And yes, you are right: Turning it off prevents a bard also from using chants, although "use infinite buffs" is set to "on".

[Arkalezth]

Well, the obvious solution is to buff the party manually before a battle, but without a mod like the one I linked above, that's a pain in the ass.

[Basher of Glory]

Well, the obvious solution is to buff the party manually before a battle, but without a mod like the one I linked above, that's a pain in the ass.

I agree, nevertheless

[unclejoe1917]

Okay, so far my Drow Bard is holding up quite nicely with a pretty respectable balance of buffing, combat casting and melee abilities.  He's got a great skill set and is quite the diplomat to boot.  The two level penalty was a bit annoying, but nobody put a gun to my head to make be choose Drow.  In the beginning, I also decided to finally give the romance with Elanee a whirl, and it has been pretty difficult not siding with Neeshka in all the bickering.  She just says much cooler stuff than the others to this point.  

[Basher of Glory]

My mains are leader.

 

Leaders don't fraternize with their troops!

 

[unclejoe1917]

My mains are leader.

 

Leaders don't fraternize with their troops!

 

When a man goes out into the field of battle and accepts the burden of saving the world upon his back, who are we to deny him the spoils of the flesh?

[Basher of Glory]

When a man goes out into the field of battle and accepts the burden of saving the world upon his back, who are we to deny him the spoils of the flesh?

A true man knows how to substitute mean cravings to positive energy for the greater good!

 

[unclejoe1917]

A true man knows how to substitute mean cravings to positive energy for the greater good!

 

He's chaotic good.  He plays fast and loose with the rules while he fights the good fight.  Plus it would be a waste to let all that charm go to waste. 

[Basher of Glory]

He's chaotic good.  He plays fast and loose with the rules while he fights the good fight.  Plus it would be a waste to let all that charm go to waste. 

With an attitude like this many wars against evil were lost before they started!