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Do you think MENext should expand the class system?


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#26
Guanxii

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Continuation of a previous post. Only with a vanguard example;

 

Vanguard Primary Slot Options to choose from:

-Biotic Charge (default)

-Annihilation Field

-Poison Strike

-Havoc Strike

 

Secondary (biotic damage / detonator):

-Nova (default)

-Lift Grenade

-Cluster Grenades

-Smash

-Biotic Slash

 

Tertiary (crowd control / primer):

-Pull (default)

-Lifting Shockwave

-Lash

-Stasis

 

4th (ammo power / tech primer):

-Warp Ammo (default) *should prime minor biotic explosions

-Incendiary Ammo

-Cryo Ammo

-Disruptor Ammo

 

5th (non-biotic combat skill / tech detonator):

-Carnage (default)

-Electric Slash

-Phase Disruptor

-Ballistic Blades

-Nightshade Blades

-Inferno Grenade

-Frag Grenade

-Proximity Mine

 

6th (utility / vanguard bonus slot)

-All of the above*

-Barrier (default)

-Blade Armor

-Fortification

-Biotic Focus

-Stimulant Packs

 

7th (passive)

8th (fitness)

9th (bonus power)



#27
birefringent

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I'm OK with the current system and would be even happier if I could get all the MP classes in SP.

 

I also like the system that Blizzard did for Diablo 3 where you have 5 basic classes with multiple abilities which in turn each have multiple ways of changing those main abilities to make them do slightly different things.

 

Not sure if such a system would work for Mass Effect, but I sure would like to try it. Especially if I could alter the omniweapon on the mission for different encounters: Having it as melee only, switch to some form of ranged attack, or a shield.



#28
Pasquale1234

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As far as I'm concerned class systems are a video game archaism that most P&P games have outgrown about thirty years ago.

Open ended character development should be the norm, giving the possibility to both those who like to play out of the box characters and those who favor the classic archetypes to build the character they want.


That's fine if it fits in world lore - not so much when it doesn't. In MEU, biotic abilities are supposedly rare in humans, just as characters in DA are either mages - or they aren't. I personally don't add biotic bonus powers to otherwise non-biotic Shepards because it feels inconsistent with the lore.

That said, I'd like the soldier class to have a defense buff again. An ME1 soldier had health regen, shield boost, and immunity available, but in ME2&3, they're stuck behind cover.

Of course, I'd also like the squadmates health & shield status restored to the HUD, too.
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#29
Nitrocuban

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Soldier with Adrenalin Rush and some fitting bonus power like Forification, Defense Matrix, Energy Drain or Barrier is one of the thoughest chars in ME3SP.



#30
Pasquale1234

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Soldier with Adrenalin Rush and some fitting bonus power like Forification, Defense Matrix, Energy Drain or Barrier is one of the thoughest chars in ME3SP.


Emphasis on the bonus power. Not available until you've completed a playthrough and unlocked them. The soldier spec itself has nothing in the way of defense buffs.

#31
Vazgen

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Emphasis on the bonus power. Not available until you've completed a playthrough and unlocked them. The soldier spec itself has nothing in the way of defense buffs.

Adrenaline Rush gives a defense buff based on the evolutions chosen.


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#32
Pasquale1234

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Adrenaline Rush gives a defense buff based on the evolutions chosen.


I guess I made a mis-statement. If you choose that option in the AR progression, you'll take less damage while it is active - but it doesn't actually restore health or shields like some of the other class skills do.

#33
Nitrocuban

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AR has a shield restore option. 6A "Shieldboost".


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#34
Pasquale1234

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AR has a shield restore option. 6A "Shieldboost".


ME3 has an option to increase shield strength by 50%. I don't know whether it helps if your shields have already been knocked down. 150% of zero is still zero.

Regardless, I'd like the base soldier class to have health and/or shield re-gen that doesn't involve a bonus power or the highest level of some other ability.

#35
DarkKnightHolmes

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I hope class actually matter in the next game. Give Engineers and Adepts some outside combat abilities.


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#36
StealthGamer92

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I hope class actually matter in the next game. Give Engineers and Adepts some outside combat abilities.

 

Yea, and spots where Infiltrators can use cloak to sneak by or ledges only reachable by Biotic Charge. Can't think of anything for the Sentinel though.



#37
Nitrocuban

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What about a medic class?

A class that mainly hepls the squadmates to stay alive and kill enemies for you.



#38
StealthGamer92

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What about a medic class?

A class that mainly hepls the squadmates to stay alive and kill enemies for you.

 

That used to be Sentinel's in ME1 sothe could go back to that fixing my last posts probldm!



#39
KaiserShep

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I actually would not mind taking some cues from ME1. There were quite a few abilities that made certain squad members pretty flexible. Liara, for instance, had certain tech powers on top of being a biotic powerhouse. Of course, this also made the ME1 squad immensely overpowered by the last half of the game.

 

But I think ammo powers should be an add-on to the weapon itself, rather than a class-specific ability.


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#40
Mcfly616

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They don't need to add any more classes. They need to expand the gameplay mechanics available to specific classes. 

 

For example: besides tactical cloak, Infiltrators are not any more stealthy than the other available classes. The combat in the trilogy was all about a straight up firefight. Stealth was barely sugar-coated in here and there. They should incorporate a stealth mechanic where enemies can be avoided entirely or can be dispatched without alerting reinforcements. Allows for more variety in gameplay.



#41
StealthGamer92

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They don't need to add any more classes. They need to expand the gameplay mechanics available to specific classes. 

 

For example: besides tactical cloak, Infiltrators are not any more stealthy than the other available classes. The combat in the trilogy was all about a straight up firefight. Stealth was barely sugar-coated in here and there. They should incorporate a stealth mechanic where enemies can be avoided entirely or can be dispatched without alerting reinforcements. Allows for more variety in gameplay.

 

I waned this since I staerted up ME1 created an Infiltrator(because it sounded stealthy and had a sniper rifle to boot) and found out there was absolutely no stealth or even agro-stealth elements in it, and the problem was only made worse with the addition of ME2&3's Tactical Cloak ability.



#42
Mcfly616

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I waned this since I staerted up ME1 created an Infiltrator(because it sounded stealthy and had a sniper rifle to boot) and found out there was absolutely no stealth or even agro-stealth elements in it, and the problem was only made worse with the addition of ME2&3's Tactical Cloak ability.

 I liked the idea of tactical cloak, just don't think they made it as useful as it could've been. I mean really, all you could do with it is get one free kill before everybody was alerted to your presence, so it made it a bit pointless when all was said and done. 

 

 

 

I just think unique gameplay abilities should coincide with each class (outside of the powers in general). Infiltrators should get a stealth mechanic. Maybe Engineers could have the ability to upgrade and improve their omnitools (hack doors and gain access to areas no other class can get to). Maybe soldiers can have some sort of combat vision (thermal or infrared) so that they may have complete awareness of the battlefield.  

 

Maybe these unique gameplay mechanics could possibly have progression trees of their own. 


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#43
ImaginaryMatter

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No. BioWare should focus on making the classes they have now more fundamentally different.



#44
StealthGamer92

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 I liked the idea of tactical cloak, just don't think they made it as useful as it could've been. I mean really, all you could do with it is get one free kill before everybody was alerted to your presence, so it made it a bit pointless when all was said and done. 

 

 

 

I just think unique gameplay abilities should coincide with each class (outside of the powers in general). Infiltrators should get a stealth mechanic. Maybe Engineers could have the ability to upgrade and improve their omnitools (hack doors and gain access to areas no other class can get to). Maybe soldiers can have some sort of combat vision (thermal or infrared) so that they may have complete awareness of the battlefield.  

 

Maybe these unique gameplay mechanics could possibly have progression trees of their own. 

 

I got it! What if there was a passive "Sixth Sense" type abbility for the Infiltrator that would let him sense enemies are nearby(controller vibrates, or something appears on screen?) and let us enter crouch(they also need to bring back crouch) then if we xan succesfuly sneak by useing cover, line of sight, and our Cloak our squadies will follow us in their own Kasumi style cloak thus a stealth approach is born.



#45
Handmaiden

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I want to be an asari adept with Dominate  :wub:

 

But ME3 multiplayer-styled classes for story mode would be awesome, like playing as an infiltrator with swords.



#46
Lee T

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That's fine if it fits in world lore - not so much when it doesn't.


As far as I'm concerned it's a chicken and the egg thing. How much does a system need class because the world warants it, and how much is a word lore built on the premise that it does need classes considering how many people can't imagine a RPG without class system (hence why D&D still clings to it).

Back in the days of early MMO I played one that had no class, giving freedom to build attributes and skills how you saw fit. The player reaction was to immediately build template based on existing classes in other MMOs (to get their bearings I guess) and unwillingly enforcing them on new players because of how it pervaded the in game chat lingo (that and any character not fitting the templates was seen as badly designed and would not be welcome in raid parties).

Considering how many P&P RPGs do fine without class whatever the universe ranging from high fantasy to sci-fi and super-heroes, I have my doubts about the necessity. I think it's more a cultural issue than a technical one (unless it's easier to build the ingame engine if you use class, that I have no idea about).

#47
Mcfly616

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I have no doubt Mass Effect could succeed without class templates. Just have individual skill trees that the player can progress through based on where they spend their allotted points. You could invest in biotic implants, or customize and build up your omnitool(tech tree), or just invest in basic combat skills (gunplay, melee), or dabble in all trees to an extent.

 

 

Plenty of rpgs have gone without a class system and have done very well. I just don't know if Bioware should change it, or if they even would.



#48
StealthGamer92

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I have no doubt Mass Effect could succeed without class templates. Just have individual skill trees that the player can progress through based on where they spend their allotted points. You could invest in biotic implants, or customize and build up your omnitool(tech tree), or just invest in basic combat skills (gunplay, melee), or dabble in all trees to an extent.

 

 

Plenty of rpgs have gone without a class system and have done very well. I just don't know if Bioware should change it, or if they even would.

 

You mean like Kingdoms of Amalur did with Might, Finess, and Magic trees? Sounds like it could work.



#49
RedCaesar97

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Some very interesting discussion in this thread.

 

Personally I am undecided if I want to expand on the current class system or abolish it. There may be a 'happy medium' in there somewhere.

 

 

Basically, from ME1 to ME3, BioWare divided powers into three sets: Combat, Tech, Biotic.

 

Then they created classes that used those power sets:

 - Soldier, combat-oriented

 - Engineer, tech-oriented

 - Adept, biotic-oriented

 - Infiltrator, combat-tech hybrid

 - Vanguard, combat-biotic hybrid

 - Sentinel, tech-biotic hybrid

 

For the most part, Soldier, Engineer, and Adept were given all the combat, tech, and biotic powers, and then those abilities were then distributed evenly amongst the hybrid classes.

 

 

The issue, if there is an issue, is that you may not have the tech, biotic,or combat powers you want on the hybrid classes.

ME1 also had an issue where the hybrid classes could be better versions of the pure classes when taking certain bonus powers.

ME2 fixed these issues by giving each class a unique power. The classes retained their unique powers in ME3 and gained one additional unique power. (Quick rant: Engineer and Vanguard had more unique new powers in Sentry Turret and Nova, while the others just got some form of grenade which I thought was lame.)

 

(Another quick rant: I thought ME3 had a bit of the same issue as ME1 where the hybrids were generally better than the pure classes due to how the power combo system works; tough to play as an Adept when the Sentinel is basically an Adept+).

 

 

One possible way of keeping the class structure while allowing more flexibility between the classes is modify KrrKs idea somewhat. This is something I have thought on and off for several months. I think I even thought of it a few years ago, and I doubt I was the first.

 

I'd actually like a system similar to that: Keep the 3 Main Specializations (Biotic, Combat, Tech) and have a fixed primary and a secondary ability set for each to chose from. Add to that something like the current Class defining Power (or two of that), which is unlocked based on the combination of those sets.

 

As an Example: Biotic + Combat --> Vanguard. (Obviously the real powers would differ somewhat)

The class defining power could get assigned based on the combination of both power sets -while disregarding the order of them.

In this case biotic + combat gets Biotic Charge as signature power. Based solely on the primary power set, the player then gets either Nova (biotic) or Carnage (combat) as secondary class defining power.

From the primary ability set, 3 fixed powers are added. (Let's say the primary set always incorporates the 'direct damage' powers)

Biotic primary could get e.g., Warp, Shockwave and Biotic Grenades. Combat primary could include something like 2 different Grenade 'Powers' (Frag and incendiary/Sticky) + Incendiary Ammo

The secondary set could include 2 powers, say a utility and a protectional one.

Biotic secondary could be Pull and Barrier, while combat secondary would be Cryo Ammo and Fortification.

 

This setup would allow for 9 different Classes (+Bonuspower), More if we allow more than 1 primary and secondary set per 'element'.

 

I think the KrrKs has a nice base to work from, but I would not go as far as trying to create 9 different classes.

 

 

My idea would be to allow the player to choose from the six classes: Soldier, Engineer, Adept, Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Sentinel.

 

Each class would be given a unique power, plus pre-set class passive. If you kept the current unique power setup, then:

 - Soldier would get Adrenaline Rush and Combat Mastery

 - Engineer would get Combat Drone and Tech Mastery

 - Adept would get Singularity and Biotic Mastery

 - Infiltrator would get Tactical Cloak and Operative Mastery

 - Vanguard would get Biotic Charge and Assault Mastery

 - Sentinel would get Tech Armor and Power Mastery

 

Then based on the class the player chose, you can the select 2 or 4 powers from a list (2 if want ME3 MP size, or 4 if you want ME2 size):

 - Soldier can choose 2/4 combat powers

 - Adept can choose 2/4 biotic powers

 - Engineer can choose 2/4 tech powers

 - Vanguard can choose 1/2 combat powers and 1/2 biotic powers

 - Infiltrator can choose 1/2 combat powers and 1/2 tech powers

 - Sentinel can choose 1/2 tech powers and 1/2 biotic powers

 

And if you want to keep the bonus power system, then each class can then select (if any are unlocked) any available bonus power from a list.

 

Theoretically, at least in my head, this should allow more flexibility among the classes while still retaining some uniqueness. 

 

 

There are some bad aspects to having a custom class system though:

1. It may overwhelm new players at first as they may be confused and struggle when trying to choose their initial power sets. Providing the player with too many options before they even begin to play may anger them them or turn them off your game, causing them to quit even before they begin to play.

 

2. You are also essentially locking players into their initial power set choices without a respec, unless you provide/allow a respec option that allows them to re-select their power sets. If you lock players into a power set they initially thought would be fun/good but later find out they do not like, will cause them to quit, possibly permanently if they spent hours playing something they hated.

 

3. As some others have pointed out allowing custom-built classes makes it harder to balance all the powers. (Note, I think this is even harder if you keep the ME3 power combo system as it still tends to favor hybrid classes in a lot of circumstances, unless you restrict all classes to 3 powers instead of 5 in my proposal).

 

 

One possible solution to the above problem is to provide preset builds. for example, you can choose Soldier, then either pick a custom Soldier class, or choose the preset Soldier class.


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#50
RawThunderHustle

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No. BioWare should focus on making the classes they have now more fundamentally different.

That's no fun.