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spoiler. feeling left out because of Dorian's sexuality.


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#76
CuriousArtemis

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I often felt in both DA:O and DA2 that if a character was a romance option, even if I wasn't romancing them, that there wasn't much of a friendship. Like once you reached the point of not romancing them it was, nope, nothing to talk about now because we're not together. Admittedly it was worse in ME where characters shut down completely if you didn't romance them. Still calibrating, Garrus? Ok, I'll be around, in case you ever want to talk to your best friend again.


Hmm interesting; I have to disagree. I felt like I had amazing friendships with Alistair and Morrigan in DAO. I couldn't romance Alistair and wasn't interested in Morrigan. Both were amazing. In DA2 I had amazing friendships with Isabela and Aveline. But in DAI I don't feel particularly close to anyone. It doesn't have the same intimacy of the previous two games.

Anyway, interesting to see the straight female version of the usual straight male complaint lol Personally I'm still in favor of all bi romance options while leaving someone like Dorian a non-romance option so he can still have his personal story. BUT there are always mods :) Just too bad I won't have a canon inquisitor. At least I actually liked Zevran in DAO, even if it's Alistair I really wanted.
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#77
Esther

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I feel you, OP.

 

Dorian would have been my first choice as well, I just adored his wit, his complexity, even his flaws, they just made him such a realistic character,

maybe the most realistic character in any game I have played and I can only really say kudos to his writer. 

 

Me getting to know that he was gay, that he was never an option for my female Inquisitor even though I could flirt with and flatter him,

just made him feel even more realistic. 

 

I was upset, but finally accepted that he was out of my reach, my Inquisitor later on became good friends with him and supported him in being true to himself.

 

In short: I think he is fantastically well written just the way he is, and having him as an option for everyone would take away a lot from that. 


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#78
Cecilia

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Ok, so I'm sure I'll probably take some flak on this for being less than politically correct about the whole thing, but honestly I thought the alternate sexuality thing was a bit overplayed and it detracted from the story line as a result.

 

Don't get me wrong - the Dorian thing really worked as part of the story.  You get a chance to get to know Dorian and develop a friendship with him before you find out his entire back story, and when you do it makes sense and it plays into the larger story as a whole.

 

The Grimm thing?  Eh.  Wow.  Ok, so I head over to the tavern to talk to Iron Bull and company and Grimm, out of the blue in what is probably only our 2nd conversation ever starts talking about how they are really a man trapped in a woman's body.  Ok.. sure.. but, umm.. well first technically I guess I'm your employer and just not sure I'm comfortable with having this conversation with you at all because frankly its really none of my business.

 

I mean don't you have friends or something you could discuss this with?  I don't even know your first name, and really I was kind of happy with that.  Seriously.. this is just a big jump over the TMI line considering I don't really know you at all.

 

I guess the thing that annoyed me was it didn't really fit the storyline all that well, it seemed incredibly forced and awkward and if anything it just really felt like it detracted from Dorian's story because it took away a lot of the uniqueness of that plot point.  Seemed sort of like Dorian saying, "Ok, yes I'm gay" and my response at that point should have been, "Well crap Dorian, who isn't around here?"

 

It's been stated already so I won't repeat why being transgendered and being gay/bisexual are not the same thing.

 

I thought Crem was really important as an added illustration of Thedosian culture and the nuanced attitudes towards sexuality and gender identity that exist there - Orlais and Ferelden are generally fairly open minded about your sexual preferences, Tevinter is probably the most close-minded, and the Qunari are actually very "anything goes mang", but out of the four cultures, the Qunari seem to be the only culture that genuinely treats transgendered people no differently from cis-gendered people.

 

Also representation is so important - complaining that there's Dorian and Sera and Krem (and it's wrong to even lump them in as the "same" but I'll humor you here) is like complaining that there are "too many women." The one thing Bioware seems to be amazing at doing is proactively making sure that their games reflect our society as much as possible in terms of composition, as opposed to some cis-gendered white male idea of what "fantasy land" should look like. There is always room for improvement but Bioware definitely outstrips a lot of their competitors.

 

And now you have me sounding like a WGS major and I despise WGS. One day these things won't need to be said anymore and I can permanently curl up in my Econ major hole of game theory and min/maxing. Ugh. 

 

ETA: Also why I love Viv. Viv is life. She's a powerful, intelligent, beautiful woman of color in this fantasyland canon casting tons of glorious shade and owning the daylights out of everyone. (She also has some really great dialogue about making your difference a strength and Cole has banter about the racism she faces for her skin color) 


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#79
catabuca

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I shouldn't have made this my first topic. Because I now agree with a lot of what's being said. But I can't figure out how to delete this. So let's make it clear. I now agree that he's damn awesome the way he is.

 

Welcome to the fold. <3



#80
TheJediSaint

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Does it count if I twirl my moustache and laugh evilly about getting offended by everthing?

^ Gay agenda right there, folks!


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#81
Guest_Aribeth de Tylmarande_*

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SUCK IT UP. THAT IS LIFE.

 

In the real world, people have sexual preferences OP.

 

Grow a pair of cojones and romance Dorian with a dude. If Dorian was a drive-thru love machine who catered to everyone's whims, it would detract from his character.

 

Snape.gif



#82
TheJediSaint

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That's a bit harsh.  It's okay to be disappointed when someone you find attractive doesn't reciprocate, whatever the reasons.


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#83
daveliam

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^ Gay agenda right there, folks!

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa!  Why are you blowing up my spot?



#84
Xilizhra

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ETA: Also why I love Viv. Viv is life. She's a powerful, intelligent, beautiful woman of color in this fantasyland canon casting tons of glorious shade and owning the daylights out of everyone. (She also has some really great dialogue about making your difference a strength and Cole has banter about the racism she faces for her skin color) 

Personally, I think Vivienne's ethnicity made her even more cringeworthy than her personality already makes her. Having the one black companion in the series being the main advocate for keeping oppressed minorities down strikes me as... problematic.



#85
Br3admax

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Please don't. And as a "person of color," whatever that means, I happen to like how Vivienne held her own views and didn't bend to will of the Inquisitor or go for the pity party like just about everyone else. 


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#86
TheJediSaint

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Please don't. And as a "person of color," whatever that means, I happen to like how Vivienne held her own views and didn't bend to will of the Inquisitor or go for the pity party like just about everyone else.

Pity parties are so terribly dull, darling.
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#87
daveliam

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....Vivienne [.....] didn't [.....] go for the pity party like just about everyone else. 

Pity parties are so terribly dull, darling.

 

Vivienne?  Is that you, my dear?



#88
Cecilia

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Personally, I think Vivienne's ethnicity made her even more cringeworthy than her personality already makes her. Having the one black companion in the series being the main advocate for keeping oppressed minorities down strikes me as... problematic.

 

It's getting a little redundant how many people believe Viv is all OPPRESSTHEMAGES because if you actually do talk to her about mage rights/next Divine she supports Cassandra's platform for reform, which, if you recruited the mages as allies, is pretty liberal and allows them to choose whether or not to return to the Circles. She's definitely more hardline if you ask her to become Divine, but that's more a question of her personality than her political views - she pretty much says "there is no greater pleasure than bringing order with your own hand" - Viv's super type A and bossy and control-freaky and a lot of your dialogue with her reveals that she's basically grown up realizing that if you want something done right you have to do it yourself. 

 

Viv actually out and out says she deplores what happened to the mages at Kirkwall and really doesn't like the rampant abuse in the Circles - which is why she thinks mages should have a greater role in the Chantry - not only because mages best understand what they are capable of, but also because mages need stronger advocacy. She simply doesn't believe in tearing down the existing system for the sake of lulz. What people need to understand is Viv is a reformer but she's a moderate and a realist. Her issue with the mage rebellion isn't that they voted to dissolve the Circles it's that they chose to dissolve the Circles when all mages were being scrutinized for Anders' and Orsino's actions. She's a shrewd politician who realizes that the timing of the mage rebellion in the eyes of the rest of Thedas is the equivalent of a resounding acceptance and advocacy of what Anders and Orsino did. Basically she just thinks Fiona et. al. were short-sighted and hot-headed and did more to hurt the cause of mages than help it.

 

Please don't. And as a "person of color," whatever that means, I happen to like how Vivienne held her own views and didn't bend to will of the Inquisitor or go for the pity party like just about everyone else. 

 

Yes~ Madame de Fer <3


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#89
Xilizhra

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It's getting a little redundant how many people believe Viv is all OPPRESSTHEMAGES because if you actually do talk to her about mage rights/next Divine she supports Cassandra's platform for reform, which, if you recruited the mages as allies, is pretty liberal and allows them to choose whether or not to return to the Circles. She's definitely more hardline if you ask her to become Divine, but that's more a question of her personality than her political views - she pretty much says "there is no greater pleasure than bringing order with your own hand" - Viv's super type A and bossy and control-freaky and a lot of your dialogue with her reveals that she's basically grown up realizing that if you want something done right you have to do it yourself. 

 

Viv actually out and out says she deplores what happened to the mages at Kirkwall and really doesn't like the rampant abuse in the Circles - which is why she thinks mages should have a greater role in the Chantry - not only because mages best understand what they are capable of, but also because mages need stronger advocacy. She simply doesn't believe in tearing down the existing system for the sake of lulz. What people need to understand is Viv is a reformer but she's a moderate and a realist. Her issue with the mage rebellion isn't that they voted to dissolve the Circles it's that they chose to dissolve the Circles when all mages were being scrutinized for Anders' and Orsino's actions. She's a shrewd politician who realizes that the timing of the mage rebellion in the eyes of the rest of Thedas is the equivalent of a resounding acceptance and advocacy of what Anders and Orsino did. Basically she just thinks Fiona et. al. were short-sighted and hot-headed and did more to hurt the cause of mages than help it.

It's not just Vivienne's political views, it's those combined with the fact that she's both a massive control freak and has carved out a very cushy position for herself politically, from which she can now look down on other mages who aren't protected by the empress.

 

Vivienne's no Alrik, to be sure... but neither is she Leliana, and Leliana is the only one whom I trust in this case.



#90
Sarcastic Tasha

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I see the point of having a whole rainbow full of different sexualities in the game and I do like it. As others have said Dorian's sexuality was actually relevant to his personal quest. But I don't think there was enough friendship content with him or with any of the characters really. I dunno if that was just because I played for 100 hours and exhausted all the conversations with everyone so then it felt like they just didn't want to chat any more?  :wacko: In ME2 I felt like I was missing out with Miranda because my Shep got along really well with her but then there was just no more content. Garrus (ME3 Garrus) and Liara both had good friendship content though.

 

Colour me crazy but I liked Dragon Age 2. It was nice to be able to try all the romances without having to play as a bloke (I've tried lots of times I just can't get on with it). I think it adds replayability. Generally I don't think a person's sexuality is that important (well unless you're trying to get in their pants I suppose) its not what defines a person which is why I don't think it mattered that it wasn't explicitly stated in DA2 (apart from Isabela who freely talks about her bisexuality). Leliana is bisexual and Sera is gay but if you swapped that around to me it would have made no difference to the characters they still would have been the same people.



#91
BioWareMod03

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Hi everyone. Let's try to stay on topic and take side discussions in to pms. Thank you.


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#92
Cecilia

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I think she's brutal, callous and power-hungry. This isn't to say that she can't be loyal to to people who impress her, but when exactly does she demonstrate empathy? I don't recall that directly.

 

If you talk to her at Skyhold about the mage rebellion she'll tell you that she empathizes with how they felt, but really could they have chosen a worse timing to do what they did? 

 

A lot of what people hate about Viv is really just her realism - Cole provides insight into how she forcibly shuts herself off from becoming overly emotionally attached to many things because it's a weakness, both in the Circles and within the Orlesian court, and she's had to fight to survive (tooth and nail) - and she exemplifies the type of person who believes in changing oneself to adapt to the world you find yourself in rather than trying to change the world to adapt to you. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

 

Does she want power? Yes - because she believes that she is better equipped than most to utilize power to influence society for the better. You see that a lot in her conversations with Cass - how she implies that Cass has a responsibility to take the power that Cass, as a hero and a symbol herself, possesses. Viv's flaw here is really her arrogance in believing that she can and will use power more effectively than most (but again, she also will defer to people she respects like the Inquizzy or Cass - there are just very few people she views as her intellectual equals/superiors)

 

She isn't callous - there's banter with Cole that implies she was worried about him (after Cole's personal), but is simply unwilling to express it. She also *mothers* IB if you have them in the same party (that one banter where she's scolding him for picking at his wounds is so adorable). Again I think you have to take her breadth of emotional expression within the context of her life - she's spent so much of it in a place where you have to live semi-permanently under a mask and emotions can be fatal that she's learned to discipline her own expression militantly. (This is really obvious after Bastien's death - it's obviously devastating for her, but she doesn't really let anyone express their sympathy and brushes all of it off with "it will be fine, dear" - which puts a lot of her reactions to the experiences of others in context) 

 

Viv is arrogant and narrow-minded about approaches to magic/theology that are external to what she was taught and yes, a royal ****** in the best way possible, but she's never unnecessarily brutal (where have you seen her use unnecessary force relative to what seems par for the course at Orlais?), she's not an emotionlesstramplesonallyourfeelingsbecauseIcan pinnacle of callousness, and really there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting power/having ambition.

 

I honestly think a lot of the "Viv is a terrible human being" sentiment comes from players viewing themselves as revolutionaries and being jarred by having a companion who is a reformist but inherently counterrevolutionary. She's not the world's nicest person or most altruistic person and she can be a manipulative ****** and she's downright terrible to Blackwall (which turns out - deserved? idk Blackwall leaves me with complicated feelings), but in the balance she's still someone who cares about the world she lives in and is willing to put her life on the line to protect it (it's very slight but you can see hints of her unbending towards Cole - at one point Cole is all excited because she referred to him as "he" instead of "it" and Viv gets all denialmode). Maybe it's because I'm a type A economics major who has a serious bitchy streak and appreciation for a well cut silhouette and excellently thrown shade, but I can respect the kind of woman Viv is.


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#93
RinuCZ

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Haha, yeah, it was sort of my feeling in DA:O. I go for same-sex romances and there was just Leliana talking about her God and whatever while Morrigan was standing just meters away from her :D.

Still better than Mass Effect 2 which had total amount of such options equal to zero as opposed to numerous choices for other preferences.

 

On the other hand, I was quite happy there was at least an option in both series and especially Dragon Age excelled at forcing me to put myself in else's shoes, to roleplay. I mean both DA:O and DA2 had LI that didn't appeal to me even as persons but how eventually I started appreciating them for what they were. In addition, it also gave certain autonomy to the protagonist and makes me to come up with a backstory of how the protagonist became interested.

 

DA:I has unreachable Cassandra to honor the tradition but Josie is the first "hell yes" character in the franchise :).



#94
RinuCZ

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And by the way, Dorian is pretty awesome. He was probably the first male NPCs I have ever flirted with in games because I viewed it as a way how to troll ourselves for laughs. Would do again :).



#95
Cecilia

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I made a new thread to host the Viv debate sorry Dorian~ (I love you and at least none of us are Antivan? <3 )



#96
Jukaga

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These threads never fail to deliver. Thanks BSN.

 

So sad and so funny. Schadenfreude again!



#97
Digger1967

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It's been stated already so I won't repeat why being transgendered and being gay/bisexual are not the same thing.

 

I thought Crem was really important as an added illustration of Thedosian culture and the nuanced attitudes towards sexuality and gender identity that exist there - Orlais and Ferelden are generally fairly open minded about your sexual preferences, Tevinter is probably the most close-minded, and the Qunari are actually very "anything goes mang", but out of the four cultures, the Qunari seem to be the only culture that genuinely treats transgendered people no differently from cis-gendered people.

 

Also representation is so important - complaining that there's Dorian and Sera and Krem (and it's wrong to even lump them in as the "same" but I'll humor you here) is like complaining that there are "too many women." The one thing Bioware seems to be amazing at doing is proactively making sure that their games reflect our society as much as possible in terms of composition, as opposed to some cis-gendered white male idea of what "fantasy land" should look like. There is always room for improvement but Bioware definitely outstrips a lot of their competitors.

 

And now you have me sounding like a WGS major and I despise WGS. One day these things won't need to be said anymore and I can permanently curl up in my Econ major hole of game theory and min/maxing. Ugh. 

 

ETA: Also why I love Viv. Viv is life. She's a powerful, intelligent, beautiful woman of color in this fantasyland canon casting tons of glorious shade and owning the daylights out of everyone. (She also has some really great dialogue about making your difference a strength and Cole has banter about the racism she faces for her skin color) 

 

Actually I was kind of hoping you'd cover that whole difference between them thing with charts and perhaps an in depth multi-hour lecture.  I mean granted really doesn't matter at all to the point being made but if it will make you happy hey I'm cool with it.

 

If the Crem thing is supposedly so important to the story line, then I'd kind of hope that someone would have played through that in testing and said.. umm.. guys, this really doesn't work, at all.  It's awkward and awful and just really detracts because it's so incredibly ham handed.  Maybe it would be a good idea to get to know Crem first and then this won't seem so over the top wow look at how enlightened we are and it will actually seem more like a part of the story.

 

I give them two thumbs up for how they handled the Dorian sub plot, it was excellent.  This part however?  Fell flatter than a pancake.  Sorry, just one guys humble opinion I guess.



#98
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

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Haha, yeah, it was sort of my feeling in DA:O. I go for same-sex romances and there was just Leliana talking about her God and whatever while Morrigan was standing just meters away from her :D.
Still better than Mass Effect 2 which had total amount of such options equal to zero as opposed to numerous choices for other preferences.


ME2 technically had a S/S romance option, just was treated as a fling instead of a romance

#99
Qun00

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If you talk to her at Skyhold about the mage rebellion she'll tell you that she empathizes with how they felt, but really could they have chosen a worse timing to do what they did.

The first half is just in your imagination.

Vivienne sarcastically puts it as "By all means, protest about abuses by the templars!"

She doesn't acknowledge their struggle, and criticising Fiona's leadership cannot be mistaken for empathy.

Want an example of someone who believes in the Circles system AND cares about the well being of mages? Cassandra. She improves them to make life there better. And even so, it's kept optional rather than operating like a prison.

On the other hand, Vivienne opposes any level of freedom in their reach as fiercely as would a templar.
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#100
Qun00

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