78 réponses à ce sujet

[ThreeF]

Well, in regards to that particular quest, it's Celene's party. Neither you nor Corypheus are in actuality determining when that quest takes place. The threat is only as immediate as Celene's calendar makes it. It might be announced several months in advance for all you know and all you're doing when you choose to pursue the quest is fast-forwarding time to the date of the event.

My issue with  all of it  is that nothing hinders your progress, nothing ever is really an obstacle or a challenge (these things of course have little to do with maps being there)

[wright1978]

Would you get rid of three of Dragon Age: Inquisition's large, beautiful, but storyless open-world environments in exchange for thirty additional interesting, cinematic, plot-related quests in the environments that remain?

 

 

Yes i would happily sacrifice some of the empty open world environments for more story content in the remaining zones. Felt the balance was poor in Inquisition.

[DomeWing333]

My issue with  all of it  is that nothing hinders your progress, nothing ever is really an obstacle or a challenge (these things of course have little to do with maps being there)

Sure, that's also a problem I have with the game. After Haven, everything seems to come too easy and you seem to just be smacking the ice cream cone out of Corypheus's hands with every step you take. But like you said, this doesn't have anything to do with the "distracted by the sidequests" problem that pretty much every RPG in the history of ever has had. And the solution to it is certainly not any sort of in-game timer that forces you to go through the game at a certain pace. 

[PhroXenGold]

Well, in regards to that particular quest, it's Celene's party. Neither you nor Corypheus are in actuality determining when that quest takes place. The threat is only as immediate as Celene's calendar makes it. It might be announced several months in advance for all you know and all you're doing when you choose to pursue the quest is fast-forwarding time to the date of the event.

 

Thing is, I could spend years of in game time doing nothing and the party would still never happen until I chose to make it happen. If it's supposed to happen at a particular time, it should happen at that time regardless of what I am doing. Either I get there by that time, and I'm in position to stop the assasination, or I decide I'd rather collect elfroot, and Celene dies. Yes, that would mean the need to implement a time tracking system in game, but that would hardly be a bad thing.

 

So that I'm not just being negative, I'll put forward a rough idea of what I'd prefer. Loosely speaking, there should be three generic types of situation that you'll be in with regards the main plot in a "story driven open world" type game:

a - You don't know what the big bad is up to. You've got agents off searching for information and are likely doing much the same yourself. This is a perfect chance to explore the world, discover more deatils about the big bad's plans, collect allies, complete subquests and so on. Eventually, after a certain amount of time (likely modified somewhat by the amount of information has been collected), the plot will move on.

b - You know what the big bad is doing, you have leads, there's stuff you can do to oppose him, but there's nothing that demands immediate attention. At this point, you have to make a trade off. If you want, you can strike immediately against the enemy. Or if you want, you can continue to explore and gather strength, but remember that your foe will be doing the same - the longer you wait, the stronger their forces will be. Leave it too long, and bad stuff will happen, but there'll likely be quite a lot of leeway.

c - Something is happening at a specific time (possibly immediately). Either you go there at that time, or the event happens without you and you have to live with the consequences.

 

What I'm looking for in a game like DA:I is an immersive world. One where I feel like I'm playing as a person in that world. If the world doesn't move without me wanting it to do so, if I am in control of events, then I'm no longer just a person, I'm a God. And that massively breaks immersion for me.

 

People often talk about wanting "freedom" and "choice" in RPGs. Now, I don't want to take those things away, or stand in the way of more being added. I want players to have the freedom to have their character do what they want (within reason). I want them to be able to chose how their character acts. I just want there to be consequences to those choices. If you want to roleplay an Inquisitor who would rather smoke every bit of elfroot in Ferelden instead of stopping the Elder One, go ahead. You just might find that Thedas has itself a new god...

 

 

(made a few edits to what I wrote as I felt I hadn't explained everything well enough)

Modifié par PhroXenGold, 17 février 2015 - 12:58 .

[ThreeF]

Sure, that's also a problem I have with the game. After Haven, everything seems to come too easy and you seem to just be smacking the ice cream cone out of Corypheus's hands with every step you take. But like you said, this doesn't have anything to do with the "distracted by the sidequests" problem that pretty much every RPG in the history of ever has had. And the solution to it is certainly not any sort of in-game timer that forces you to go through the game at a certain pace. 

Nah for this particular problem it isn't, that's why I said from the very beginning that the core story problems are not all that relevant to the existence of maps.

 

The timer thing could work not so much as a timer but as a hand-holding implementation since many enter these type of games expecting at least some of it because it's suppose  to be story/characters driven game and not a sandbox game, DAI has the basic for it, but it uses it poorly and not enough.

[DomeWing333]

Thing is, I could spend years of in game time doing nothing and the party would still never happen until I chose to make it happen. If it's supposed to happen at a particular time, it should happen at that time regardless of what I am doing. Either I get there by that time, and I'm in position to stop the assasination, or I decide I'd rather collect elfroot, and Celene dies. Yes, that would mean the need to implement a time tracking system in game, but that would hardly be a bad thing.

That would be a bad thing. One of the main tenets of RPGs is exploration. Having it so that major plot events turn out poorly if you decide that this is a world you want to take your time to see more of would make for a game that actively punishes you for playing it. It would compel the player to speed through the critical path of the game as quickly as possible and rather than merely being tangential to the main plot, sidequests would actually hinder your progress. At that point, you might as well dispense with sidequests altogether and make the game one continuous story mission.

[PhroXenGold]

That would be a bad thing. One of the main tenets of RPGs is exploration. Having it so that major plot events turn out poorly if you decide that this is a world you want to take your time to see more of would make for a game that actively punishes you for playing it. It would compel the player to speed through the critical path of the game as quickly as possible and rather than merely being tangential to the main plot, sidequests would actually hinder your progress. At that point, you might as well dispense with sidequests altogether and make the game one continuous story mission.

 

Exploration is hardly a tenet of RPGs. It's a tenet of a particular subgenre of RPGs, but in general, RPGs are primarily about...well...roleplaying a character. And having a world dependant entirely on your actions is utterly contrary to roleplaying anything short of a god.

 

And there's no reason to make the entire game dependant on the main plot being advanced at breakneck speed. In the rest of the post you quoted part of, I set out how you can have both exploration, open world stuff and a central plot that advances in a sensible manner whether or not the player wants to get involved. Its a matter of having a mix of stuff in the plot - some things driven by the big bad, some by the player, some by other factors. There's plenty of things that can be done to move the story on without requiring immediate attention from the player. But when a major plot point that according to the story is being driven by either the big bad or a third party is, in game terms actually driven entirely by the player, that is immersion breaking and frankly out of place in a roleplaying game.

[Teligth]

I'm interested to know which of these two things BioWare fans value most highly. 

Do BioWare fans really want Dragon Age to become more like Skyrim? 

If you have a moment to spare, please answer this question as honestly and concisely as possible:

Would you get rid of three of Dragon Age: Inquisition's large, beautiful, but storyless open-world environments in exchange for thirty additional interesting, cinematic, plot-related quests in the environments that remain?

(Note: You can eliminate any of three open-world environments that you choose, and the thirty story quests you get in return are of varying size and importance, but a handful of them contribute greatly to the game's central narrative.)

 

As much as I hate to say it some of those areas really weren't necessary, especially since most didn't even link with the main story at all. If they cut down on a few of them and tied all of the areas together like in DAO it would have been a smoother experience.

[DomeWing333]

Exploration is hardly a tenet of RPGs. It's a tenet of a particular subgenre of RPGs, but in general, RPGs are primarily about...well...roleplaying a character. And having a world dependant entirely on your actions is utterly contrary to roleplaying anything short of a god.

The Wikipedia entry for RPGs flat out states that "Exploring the world is an important aspect of all RPGs" (and yes, it's Wikipedia but the citation is to an actual texbook on game design). I mean honestly, I can't think of any RPGs that don't have exploration of the world as a major aspect. Even very story-driven action adventure games like The Last of Us still lets you explore the world at your leisure.

 

And there's no reason to make the entire game dependant on the main plot being advanced at breakneck speed. In the rest of the post you quoted part of, I set out how you can have both exploration, open world stuff and a central plot that advances in a sensible manner whether or not the player wants to get involved. Its a matter of having a mix of stuff in the plot - some things driven by the big bad, some by the player, some by other factors. There's plenty of things that can be done to move the story on without requiring immediate attention from the player. But when a major plot point that according to the story is being driven by either the big bad or a third party is, in game terms actually driven entirely by the player, that is immersion breaking and frankly out of place in a roleplaying game.

 

But the Winter Palace mission didn't require immediate attention from the player, as I explained. You said "I've cleared 4 entire zones since that quest became available - once you figure in travel, sleeping and so on, that's probably weeks of in game time passing." but that's still well within the realm of possibility to have occurred before the date of Celene's ball. There is no breaking of immersion unless, like you said, you spend years of time in game doing other stuff and at that point, the time limit you're establishing for the player is so wide as to be irrelevant. All you're doing is putting a system in place to maintain immersion for the few people who want to fast travel a few dozen times between the Western Approach and the Storm Coast for no reason.

[PhroXenGold]

The Wikipedia entry for RPGs flat out states that "Exploring the world is an important aspect of all RPGs" (and yes, it's Wikipedia but the citation is to an actual texbook on game design). I mean honestly, I can't think of any RPGs that don't have exploration of the world as a major aspect. Even very story-driven action adventure games like The Last of Us still lets you explore the world at your leisure.

 

 

Really? You can't think of any RPG that doesn't have exploration as a major aspect? Well, I'd suggest that, given we're on the Bioware forums, you look at every game they've done between BG1 and DA:I. Is there some exploration? Sure. Is it in any way a major or important aspect of those games? Nope. Exploration is a little side thing you do while experiencing the major factors of the games, which are story and combat. DA:I is the first BW game since BG1 - and even then exploration in that game was somewhat of a aside to the plot - in which exploration is a major part of gameplay.

 

But the Winter Palace mission didn't require immediate attention from the player, as I explained. You said "I've cleared 4 entire zones since that quest became available - once you figure in travel, sleeping and so on, that's probably weeks of in game time passing." but that's still well within the realm of possibility to have occurred before the date of Celene's ball. There is no breaking of immersion unless, like you said, you spend years of time in game doing other stuff and at that point, the time limit you're establishing for the player is so wide as to be irrelevant. All you're doing is putting a system in place to maintain immersion for the few people who want to fast travel a few dozen times between the Western Approach and the Storm Coast for no reason.

 

The Winter Palace mission should require that the Inquisitor immediately attend it once the time at which it is occuring is reached. Of course, that then leaves the question:

 

Q: When is the date of Celene's ball?

A: Whenever the player wants it to be

 

Could it be months after the events at Haven? If the Inqusitor wants to spend that long doing other stuff. Could it be 3 days after the Inqusition moves into Haven? Sure, if the Inqusitor wants to rush there ASAP. And that makes no sense as, according to the story, the ball has nothing to do with the Inquisitor, they're just a guest who might turn up. The ball should occcur at a set time, and it should occur whether or not the player is ready for it. Again, the problem is that the player is controlling the world, when they're supposed to be role-playing a character within the world.

[AWTEW]

If I want open world I will play skyrim, and not dragon age.The first two games had great dialogue, and story quests/moments, and then Inquisition comes along: and I wonder if I'm even still playing the same series. :/

[Teligth]

If I want open world I will play skyrim, and not dragon age.The first two games had great dialogue, and story quests/moments, and then Inquisition comes along: and I wonder if I'm even still playing the same series. :/

You wanna know what's sad? TOR is a major departure from KOTOR, but still seems to work better as an "Open world" in my opinion. Plus I don't really count DAI as an open world since it's comprised of various quest areas instead of one giant world.

[JaneLunaC]

I like the more open-world of this game, hated the closed feel of the last two,

I like being able to explore huge places.

A good story is wonderful, too,

and I don't see why games shouldn't have both.

If that means spending more time on a game, then they should spend more time on them, to get them right.

 

But they probably won't.

I hate that big companies throw games out on the market full of bugs and other problems, 

probably because their ceos say 'well we need this done now, I don't care if it has problems, wrap it up and sell it now, get it done now'.

All they care about is fast money, it seems. Even if the devs want to do something more, they can't, because of that. It's sad, really.

[PhroXenGold]

 

I hate that big companies throw games out on the market full of bugs and other problems, 

probably because their ceos say 'well we need this done now, I don't care if it has problems, wrap it up and sell it now, get it done now'.

All they care about is fast money, it seems. Even if the devs want to do something more, they can't, because of that. It's sad, really.

 

It's hardly just "big companies" that do that. Pretty much all developers and publishers, big and small, put out games full of bugs and other issues. And it's nothing new. For all the hate that EA get with regards to them "making" Bioware do certian things that the playerbase don't like, BW were perfectly capable of releasing buggy unplayable games long before EA got involved. I couldn't even load BG2: Throne of Bhaal, let alone actually get some gameplay out of it, until I got one of my friends who, unlike me, had internet, to download a patch a month or two after release, burn it to a CD and give it to me at school. At least these days, patch distribution is quick and easy. And apparently I was pretty lucky with SoA, as I knew several people who couldn't get that to work...

 

And yeah, companies want to make money. Thats....kinda the entire point of companies....

[Teligth]

I like the more open-world of this game, hated the closed feel of the last two,

I like being able to explore huge places.

A good story is wonderful, too,

and I don't see why games shouldn't have both.

If that means spending more time on a game, then they should spend more time on them, to get them right.

 

But they probably won't.

I hate that big companies throw games out on the market full of bugs and other problems, 

probably because their ceos say 'well we need this done now, I don't care if it has problems, wrap it up and sell it now, get it done now'.

All they care about is fast money, it seems. Even if the devs want to do something more, they can't, because of that. It's sad, really.

Problem is too many companies have decided that they can patch any problems afterwards than releasing a stable product. Before console could connect to the internet that would mean death for a game if it was bugged. (See Superman 64). I feel like the connection to the internet has created a bad business practice for consoles that PC games already had to deal with.

[DomeWing333]

Really? You can't think of any RPG that doesn't have exploration as a major aspect? Well, I'd suggest that, given we're on the Bioware forums, you look at every game they've done between BG1 and DA:I. Is there some exploration? Sure. Is it in any way a major or important aspect of those games? Nope. Exploration is a little side thing you do while experiencing the major factors of the games, which are story and combat. DA:I is the first BW game since BG1 - and even then exploration in that game was somewhat of a aside to the plot - in which exploration is a major part of gameplay.

 

You're telling me you didn't spend the vast majority of your time in Origins or Mass Effect walking around, finding items, and talking to NPCs? Just because it's a smaller world to explore doesn't mean that you're not exploring it. Hell, the "why isn't the plot progressing?" thing is even more absurd in Origins when you look around as much as you like while a beacon is waiting to be lit during a war, abominations are taking over a mage tower, and a possessed child is terrorizing a village.

 

 

The Winter Palace mission should require that the Inquisitor immediately attend it once the time at which it is occuring is reached. Of course, that then leaves the question:

 

Q: When is the date of Celene's ball?

A: Whenever the player wants it to be

 

Could it be months after the events at Haven? If the Inqusitor wants to spend that long doing other stuff. Could it be 3 days after the Inqusition moves into Haven? Sure, if the Inqusitor wants to rush there ASAP. And that makes no sense as, according to the story, the ball has nothing to do with the Inquisitor, they're just a guest who might turn up. The ball should occcur at a set time, and it should occur whether or not the player is ready for it. Again, the problem is that the player is controlling the world, when they're supposed to be role-playing a character within the world.

The problem is that you're assuming that the moment you select the War Table Mission and the moment you arrive at the Winter Palace are within a few days of each other. You have no way of knowing if that's the case and you have no reason for assuming such. All you know is that your character arrives there some time after you choose the War Table mission. The ball take place whenever it takes place. All you have control over is what you do before it takes place.

[MaxQuartiroli]

In my opinion they should just set Crestwood as the path to follow in future installations. That area is nearly perfect and well balanced in all its elements.

[Wbino]

All they had to do was Origins with everything 2x. Allies, region, enemies.....thats all.

[Teligth]

All they had to do was Origins with everything 2x. Allies, region, enemies.....thats all.

Shhh remember common sense burns them.

[AWTEW]

You wanna know what's sad? TOR is a major departure from KOTOR, but still seems to work better as an "Open world" in my opinion. Plus I don't really count DAI as an open world since it's comprised of various quest areas instead of one giant world.

 

Was never into KOTOR tbh. I don't count DAI as either story based or  entirely open world, I count it as  hybrid-bastard that fails. For all of DA2's fault's at least it didn't have a complete identity crisis.

[SnakeCode]

Both are excellent when done right. Unfortunately neither were in Inquisition. There was no point in exploring once you had enough power to continue the main quest line, as you knew doing more side stuff would only give you more useless power. The story suffered by telling you everything is urgent. Yet it never is. Corypheus is perpetually about to make his move, but has to wait for the player to initiate said quest first. He also never felt like a real threat after Haven. A villain's defining moment shouldn't happen in the first third of the game.

[Wbino]

On a selfish note...all these gameplay problems will make for a better ME4.

[Teligth]

On a selfish note...all these gameplay problems will make for a better ME4.

I hope so.

[Sunbrow]

  If this is an open game world they can keep it.  

 

I felt almost incidental in the game...just there to prompt the movies and button mash.

[AlexiaRevan]

I couldn't stick with Skyrim because of the whole 'WOW Amazing scenery ! Go Explore!' . Sorry but at some point I need more then trees and waterfall . Give me the MEAT! The STORY! 

 

Wich...was watered down in this Game...

 

So yeah , more Stories less Giant Maps .