To be fair, there is a lot of build up to WEaWH. It just happens in the books rather than in game...
As someone who read book and liked it, I think it's wrong and that WEaWH is very bad narrative design. Every information I need must be in game.
I don't have problem about character from books I think Cole was done perfect we don't need to read books to care but if we do it even better. But Andraste v2,0 solving civil war in one evening was anticlimactic and bad.
I didn't have any problem rationalizing how things went in the mission - as said above, everyone expected the war to end that day one way or another, and the Inquisitor didn't decide who ruled but manipulated events so that things fell out a certain way - but I agree that there is a lack of build-up, and not just here. It may be another part of why DAO's main quests feel more natural, and it's certainly part of the isolation problem - the impression that DAI's story as a sequence of missions feels like a collection of loosely-connected quests rather than an organic storyline. The very long time between main quest missions may also contribute to that. If we could play the main quests in close sequence, it would possibly feel more organic, but then the game would be over in ten hours.
if you look at the evolution from DAO to DA2 to this release, there are some pretty clear patterns most of which involve cutting out options/branches/complexity
if you look at the evolution from DAO to DA2 to this release, there are some pretty clear patterns most of which involve cutting out options/branches/complexity
That is very true and you can include the ME games in the trend - I posted about this after DA2 came out and again after ME3. Having said that, DAI actually reverses the trend in some areas - we now have revisitable maps again, we can affect our companions' appearance again, we can roleplay way better than in ME3 and somewhat better than in DA2. Combat is a mixed picture, but in quest the design the trend continues unabated.
I would prefer an interesting and powerful protagonist such as Shepard instead of what I thought was ultimately a rather dull and weak protagonist like the Inquisitor (or the Warden) over 'more roleplaying' any day of the week.
I hate to say this, but I think the Bioware we knew is gone. Bioware is just a name now, it's really EA. Bioware is gone and we need to accept that.
I hate to say this, but I think the Bioware we knew is gone. Bioware is just a name now, it's really EA. Bioware is gone and we need to accept that.
The OP nailed it. Spot on.
I'd like to add something though. The DA:O quests were far from complex. they were good, standard quests you find in most decent roleplaying games. The reason why the DA:O quests feel fantastic is because you compare them to the ones in DA:I.
DA:I has moves way too far from the rpg genre in every aspect of the game, and it shows. The combat, the quests, the control over the player's character. Not a hint of complexity left. This is the symptom you get when the key words during the development is "more simplified".
The DA:O quests looks complex and deep because DA:I has none of it.
I hate to say this, but I think the Bioware we knew is gone. Bioware is just a name now, it's really EA. Bioware is gone and we need to accept that.
The Bioware you knew has moved on and are making Legends of the Sword Coast, and Pillars of Eternity.
Hey, who's actually on the Sword Coast Legends team?
It says "From the creators of Dragon Age:Origins" in the trailer.
Yeah, I saw that. My question is who in particular. So far, it looks like one of those Hollywood "From the producers of..." ads.
Looking at the gameplay vids, it might be someone the DA team is sorely missing these days.
I would like this thread to be more about specifics of DA games rather than general comments about Bioware.
Regarding the general design philosophy, I think Bioware sacrificed a lot for its cinematic style of storytelling. Whether it sacrificed too much is an ongoing debate, since the post-DAO features are generally very much appreciated by players. Also, I think they're on track to re-introduce some of the things that have been lost in the past, as exemplified by DAI (see my previous post). Quest design remains one of the problematic areas, and that's why I brought it up.
Whether other upcoming games can do better with their quests and their story will be interesting to see, but it should be observed in the context that these other games don't spend nearly as much resources on cinematic presentation. No matter where you put your priorities, these games will have characters with no real faces, and if you switch from Bioware-style to, say, POE-style, there will be several things which will be missed.
(BTW, don't get me started on Shepard and their merit as the protagonist of a roleplaying game. Just....don't. You'll never see the end of my rant)
This is certainly true, particularly on the main plot.DAI's missions lack complexity.
This is certainly true, particularly on the main plot.
It seems to be a trend in modern game design to give the player straightforward instructions and then no means to deviate from them. Now, I can't speak for other players, but I'm not a fan of being told what to do, and I will generally ignore instructions of that sort in order to demonstrate my autonomy.
As such, I have noticed the lack of complexity. Much of my effusive praise for the game arose during a long period of me ignoring the story quests. I love the parts of the game that allow us to do our own thing.
But on the main plot, BioWare hasn't given us tons to do other than follow along and do as we're told.
I think this fits in this topic.
It seems to be a trend in modern game design to give the player straightforward instructions and then no means to deviate from them. Now, I can't speak for other players, but I'm not a fan of being told what to do, and I will generally ignore instructions of that sort in order to demonstrate my autonomy.
I very much agree with both your and leldra's points. I think Bioware is committed to a cinematic style which is expensive and which ends up limiting player choice (partly because of the expense) . Unfortunately (at least for me) that's what they are invested in.
I'm also disappointed in the lack of imagination in a lot of the quest design. I thought the sequence with the Envy Demon was a really interesting idea which was very much let down by the game-play. There could have been a number of very cool ways to resolve the quest but instead we got "move in one direction and light some torches", all given to us in clear instructions.
But we do see a move somewhat away from that in DAI (compared to DA2, ME2, and ME3). The addition of the interactive ambient conversations. The addition of gameplay that isn't tied to or constrained by cinematics. DAI is a step in the right direction on this point.I very much agree with both your and leldra's points. I think Bioware is committed to a cinematic style which is expensive and which ends up limiting player choice (partly because of the expense) . Unfortunately (at least for me) that's what they are invested in.
But we do see a move somewhat away from that in DAI (compared to DA2, ME2, and ME3). The addition of the interactive ambient conversations. The addition of gameplay that isn't tied to or constrained by cinematics. DAI is a step in the right direction on this point.
Sorry, it may be an end of the week thing but can you expand on this? Do you mean the non-cinematic over-the-shoulder conversations for many of the minor quests? If so, I agree they are not constrained by cinematics but they don't do anything terribly interesting with them. Or are you just saying that it is a good thing that may ultimately lead to something better?
Guest_Caoimhe_*
This reminds me a lot of The Sims and it's progression in its series. 2 was the most charming and had simple graphics, but much to do with many choices, Sims 3 had an open world, but many bugs and lags and Sims 4 tried to replicate Sims 2 and while focusing on the new look it made them game dull and too easy.
DAI has amazing graphics, but it feels like they made the game less harder. Maybe for different ages or preferences, I don't know, but it's easy and like many said, outcomes are based mostly on dialogue and not actual action. DAO is the last game in the series I played after DA2 and DAI, and instead of a feeling of lacking graphics and gameplay, I became so involved and play it over and over! I love the choices you get for Wardens and each one has a different home and story (minus the mages). In DAI everyone is at the same place no matter which race and the same results happen no matter what you do, with a few exceptions.
I love DAI though, but I think they broke the mold with DAO and nothing will ever truly compare to it, unless they went back to that style with all the upcoming games, but things change and so we must learn to adjust.
All this being said, I am proud to own all 3 games and their DLC and allow myself to be carried away to this amazing world and meet amazing characters, and I'm thankful the series remains and continues with a timeline that connects so that when I'm traveling through Fereldan 10 years after DAO, I actually feel like I'm coming home.
Very nice post OP!! You really summarized something I could not put my finger on or explain myself. Whenever I start fussing about the lack of choices in the game, i get hammered by people talking about the mage versus templar choice, or the kill the chargers versus save the chargers. And yes they are choices...but they are so black and white. And they really don't change the story enough to be meaningful anyway. And they just didn't...feel like real choices.
I felt like a passenger in this game rather than a player. I played it three times through (two of those pretty completionist) and a few times just messing around with no intention of completing those runs. Nothing changes, not really, no matter what route I take. Because the story is already written and we are just there to observe and learn about the world. Which is fine, if that is what you want to do. And the characters were cool and the dialogue was well done. But I wanted to role-play. I wanted to problem solve and be creative. I wanted my psychotic anti-magic dwarf to be totally different than my humble human mage. And they just weren't.
I played DAO countless times and each time felt completely different. Each warden was different and I really felt like I was creating the story. It's a shame, really.
Recruit the elves and recruit the dwarves do not lead naturally into the main story and they feel like side quests. The only quest that led into the narrative was to cure Arl Eamon.
Recruit the elves and recruit the dwarves do not lead naturally into the main story and they feel like side quests. The only quest that led into the narrative was to cure Arl Eamon.
Sorry, it may be an end of the week thing but can you expand on this? Do you mean the non-cinematic over-the-shoulder conversations for many of the minor quests? If so, I agree they are not constrained by cinematics but they don't do anything terribly interesting with them. Or are you just saying that it is a good thing that may ultimately lead to something better?
The previous games' apparent need to have every conversation be cinematic was extremely expensive from a design standpoint. That they're willing to give us less cinematic conversations means two things.
First, that they're using development resounrces more efficiently. We get more content that way.
Second, that they're willing to present dialogue in a non-cinematic way. That's a good sign for future development.
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