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MENext multiplayer: taking a cue from Warframe


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#1
Rivverrabbit

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I'd like to share a couple posts I made on a separate topic to hear your thoughts on ME3's multiplayer, its success, and the next iteration.
 

Let me expand on what I was suggesting by way of example. This is a gamified version of a job with a few other players in the Mass Effect Fate tabletop RPG.

 

A prison ship bound for a detention facility on some world has stalled and is locked in orbit around the planet. The auto-defenses have gone up, warding off approach by local authorities. Your squad's job is to go in, find out what happened, and get things back on track. You start the mission by doing a space jump from your ship to the prison barge, avoiding defensive turret fire as you scale the exterior looking for a way in. Once inside, you find that there's been a massive breakout/riot. You have to fight your way past armed prisoners (and maybe mercenaries who had stormed the ship to extract a specific prisoner). At one point, you get locked into a cell block not much bigger than a ME3 multiplayer level and must defend a few waves, culminating in a "boss" fight and an objective to hack a panel for an escape into some alternate path.

 

Then you are tasked with shutting down the autodefenses so your ship can dock for extraction, following the completion of your primary objective: storming the armory where the most dangerous prisoners have holed up. You may also or instead be assigned random objectives, like extracting data, hostages, or taking out a key side target, instead of just having to storm the armory every time. Maybe there's a fire you have to put out, or a hull breach you have to seal off. In any case, if you succeed, your ship can dock, you can extract, and you get a bunch of points as well as a chance to resupply. But the job's not over: no prison break was going to get these guys out of the system; they had to be going somewhere on-world. Which means somebody else down planetside was footing the bill. Your employers track the source down to a local warlord.

 

If you successfully did your job, you launch into a new mission, where you land quietly and must stealthily infiltrate, avoiding guards and carefully picking your way in under cover of nightfall (long, open-ish environments, in which you might choose to blow stealth and jump in vehicles to speed things along), making your way toward this warlord's compound. If you failed your objective in the last mission (and didn't fail by simply all dying: you let hostages die, the prisoner escaped on a shuttle, you couldn't shut down the defenses and had to flee), then you lose the point bonus of a success, you lose the chance to resupply, and your stolen shuttle that you escaped on crashes on the opposite side of the compound a similar distance away.

Under a fiery sunset you must fight through the minions sent to intercept your crash and storm the compound. You're tasked with taking out the warlord if you are coming by stealth, tasked with taking out the warlord and his escaped prisoner if you failed. The stealth might hold up until the last moment, when you then must make an escape (yay, vehicle chase), heading for extraction the other way. Or maybe there's a vicious mutiny erupting in the warlord's ranks because of your interruption, and you have to secure an LZ inside the base (more horde defense). If you fail that, you have to book it to an alternate point.

In addition, theres always the chance for random objectives. These objectives could be tailored to specific players, based on class, race, or even personal history: the infiltrator might be given the bonus objective to hack the warlord's personal accounts and steal his money; the asari huntress might be asked to take out a traitorous underling huntress in his ranks. It's up to players to decide whether to pursue or even to share the knowledge of these objectives, convincing their squadmates to help.

In a similar vein to Shadow of Mordor's Nemesis system, the game could create nemeses and assign them to players. A sniper tags you in the compound? Not only do your allies get a new objective (extract you to a safe location so you can be revived), now you have a revenge target. You might not see him again this round; he'll escape and go find employment with the Blue Suns, whom you might face off against in another mission -- and when you see him next, he'll have better armor, unique gear, and will do higher damage against you (simulating his desire to finish you off for good). You'll get an objective to get revenge. Should you succeed, there may be a chance, depending on how he dies, that he'll also return -- angrier and more dangerous than ever, ready to thwart you at just the wrong time. Maybe he'll even go through Cerberus-level cybernetic repair every time you defeat him, until after a couple back-and-forths you get a whole mission dedicated to stopping him and the army he's amassed. The warlord and escaped prisoner, above? Could easily be randomly, dynamically generated nemeses of other players.

 

Or maybe you kill the warlord but the prisoner who escaped in round one escapes again in round two: now, following extraction, your next mission might have you chasing him down a few months later in some warzone, or tailing him on the end of some heist (remember that escaped krogan you failed to kill? Well, him and a band of mercs just kidnapped a diplomat on Ilium. They're holed up in a warehouse in the dockyard. Go get 'im.)

 

By randomizing events and supplying just enough context to keep you going, players will develop their own narratives that really matter. By continuing play in the face of failure, matches stay fun and fresh and varied. By supplying player-specific objectives and nemeses, the characters we're playing come alive and we feel more attached to them -- because they're more an extension of us. By trimming the fat and the excess we remain focused. The world feels bigger and richer than a thousand square mile open world ever could because, instead of having the time to explore every nook and cranny and bump up against the edges, the invisible walls, the system -- and realizing that it's not actually as big a world as we thought -- we have to just assume the things in our periphery are much larger.

 

As gamers we tend to explore those limits, those systems, those edges and boundaries -- but that's not realistic. A squad doing a job wouldn't stop to collect flowers or goof off; there's work to be done. The story doesn't wait for us. No, "Hey, I have to stand in front of this vendor comparing loot and upgrades for five minutes," "Oh, well, I'm good so I'll just spin in circles and get bored," or, "We have to watch a lengthy cutscene because I haven't seen it yet," "Ugh, I've seen it ten times; look at that guy's ugly faaaaaaace. Hey, did you see Game of Thrones? Way more interesting than listening to this guy prattle on," or, "Hey, stop what you're doing and come look at how if you drive this car up on this tree it looks like genitalia right before it launches you across the map." There's just no time, no opportunity: there's the job, and you have to remain on-task if you want to succeed -- but even if you don't succeed, your failures will generate their own stories too.

 

The tighter, neater experience of ME3's multi was way more engaging because of its overall simplicity: you socketed in your own narrative, and that was way more interesting, more engaging, and definitely longer lasting than a dozen open-world, narrative-driven co-op games or MMO's I can think of. You'd still have your deep, cinematic, emotional, complex single-player experience, tailored and perfected just-so, without having had resources diverted from it for a multiplayer narrative. And when you were done with that, or in between that, you could do multi to explore the world, the universe, to do things you couldn't with your single player hero. Each then serves to strengthen the other by providing flavor and detail in the ways it can't. Rather than trying to be everything, do everything, each experience does its aspects all the better, leaving the rest for a different perspective.


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#2
Terca

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tl;dr

 

But please, please tell me you didn't include the item acquisition in the things you want. ME3 had bad RNG, Warframe has terrible and convoluted RNG.



#3
Guanxii

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Not familiar with Warframe but I would like more story driven coop especially if set in the Mass Effect universe. I agree that the current horde mode formula is bland and repetitive and could use more story spice. I for one however wish they would build drop in coop into the single player campaign so your buddys can drop in and assume control of your squad members at any time that would be amazing.


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#4
Rivverrabbit

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Yeah, the item acquisition in Warframe is a big 'ol mess -- the only thing it has going for it, though, is that you can look at what you want and then get it, even if the execution of that isn't always easy or sensible.

As for the rest, that's a shame you didn't want to read it! I'm pretty happy with the cool ideas I came up with, or, rather, the way I took things that actually happened in a tabletop game and and turned them into a console game format. It was thanks to the already great ME3 multiplayer that we even got that experience, which made me love the ME universe all the more.



#5
Guanxii

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Some of these dynamic story elements - features you describe such as failure states impacting next mission level designs/objectives, re-occuring random NPCs we've not seen any of this kind of stuff in the actual single player campaign yet... so might be a tad ambitious undertaking for optional multiplayer content attached to a large sprawling single player RPG series on glorious next gen tech. If BioWare could start to incorporate some of these dynamic story events into the base game alone that would be a great start to next gen. Imagine the replay value. Maybe we will eventually start to see some more ambitious coop in the future with some cool unique dynamic procedural mission content generation stuff you describe in future releases if not right at the start. I can only imagine what a nightmare it would be to code.



#6
MrMrPendragon

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Not familiar with Warframe but I would like more story driven coop especially if set in the Mass Effect universe. I agree that the current horde mode formula is bland and repetitive and could use more story spice. I for one however wish they would build drop in coop into the single player campaign so your buddys can drop in and assume control of your squad members at any time that would be amazing.

 

I agree with the implementation of a story-driven co-op multiplayer.

 

I'm going to have to say hell no to drop-in singleplayer co-op. The supporting characters are the backbone of the Mass Effect franchise. I don't want their personalities or my interactions with them tainted by outside people. Imagine if someone could just drop in and take control of Garrus. It won't feel like Garrus anymore because you know someone else is there.


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#7
goishen

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Hmmmm, that would be interesting.  

 

Imagine if as you're playing along (if you have this switch in the options enabled) someone could drop in and take control of a character.  But, have it so that the other character can choose which character he wants and the game matches them.

 

Kind'a like they do now...  Instead of Asari Adept you say, "I wanna be Jacob!" and it matches you with other people playing Jacob. 

 

Huh.  

 

Not saying I would be into it, just saying that that's a thing I'm tossing out there.



#8
Sleeper_Tyrant

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Cool Idea, as long as it doesn't interfere with Singleplayer, but that's not what you're suggesting, is it?

I have seen some confusion around these boards when people say coop campaign. In this case I believe you're saying a multiplayer with narrative, not a "other player taking control of a squadmate". That would be bad.

#9
Guanxii

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My way of thinking is that separate coop modes tend to be rather unsubstancial given that they are basically optional side content usually farmed out by the core studio to outside help.

If BioWare designed from the outset to open up the entire single player campaign and side quest content to be played cooperatively it would blow any tacked on side content out of the water. Time and money spent on unique coop / multiplayer modes could be better spent integrating cooperative play into the core experience.

If the next Mass Effect heavily emphasises exploration it would be a mistake to have coop restricted to a small bunch of tiny coop maps with only a handful of objectives when you could open up every mission and side quest on the entire map.

If up to 2-3 friends can drop into your game (upon invitation) as one of your 6 preset squad members (one of each class type) with the skills & abilities you have chosen so far - sharing your weapon/gear/upgrade pool; this would make balancing for player partners hopefully not much more difficult than balancing for AI partners.

Not only would single players not notice any any practical difference using AI partners as usual by default - they wouldn't be missing out on content exclusively walled off to them for coop players only.
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#10
Rivverrabbit

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I categorically disagree. ME's narrative would suffer, not to mention the narrative you've built with your squadmates. There's no additional, alternate value besides playing at the same time as your friends -- who cannot influence the game in any way, who must be limited to playing as your squadmate rather than their main character, and the interest lasts only the first time you play -- after that, how often will you replay that folks will want to join? Does it really sound appealing to go on a mundane fetch quest with a friend? Players skip dialogue after they've seen it -- some even before, by reading the subtitles. And you'd be gated out of the game's funnest points depending on where you were in the story.

Such an idea sounds restrictive, limited, and distracting -- it's never good to limit player choice.

On the other hand, a multiplayer (which would, in my suggested vision, be functionally the same as the critically and overwhelmingly successful multiplayer from ME3) banks on simplicity. Replayable matches whose context you fill in, and which generate narratives of their own, no two ever alike, allowing for easy access and easy play for years, allowing for customization, player choice, and options.

Everybody thought multiplayer in Mass Effect was going to be a bad idea -- and it would have been, if you tried to turn the single player into a multiplayer experience. But by integrating an alternate co-op mode, the game effectively let the single player experience do what it did best, and let the multiplayer do what it did best. The game as a whole is better for it.

Adding co-op functionality to the single player portion is what would really feel tacked on. I vote for a substantive, but separate, co-op mode very akin to ME3's. No "content" is locked out, because it can be played by oneself. No content was diverted, because it'd be developed by a different team. Nobody loses anything, but in fact everybody gets a little bit more, even those players who never touch one or the other modes.



#11
StealthGamer92

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I categorically disagree. ME's narrative would suffer, not to mention the narrative you've built with your squadmates. There's no additional, alternate value besides playing at the same time as your friends -- who cannot influence the game in any way, who must be limited to playing as your squadmate rather than their main character, and the interest lasts only the first time you play -- after that, how often will you replay that folks will want to join? Does it really sound appealing to go on a mundane fetch quest with a friend? Players skip dialogue after they've seen it -- some even before, by reading the subtitles. And you'd be gated out of the game's funnest points depending on where you were in the story.

Such an idea sounds restrictive, limited, and distracting -- it's never good to limit player choice.

On the other hand, a multiplayer (which would, in my suggested vision, be functionally the same as the critically and overwhelmingly successful multiplayer from ME3) banks on simplicity. Replayable matches whose context you fill in, and which generate narratives of their own, no two ever alike, allowing for easy access and easy play for years, allowing for customization, player choice, and options.

Everybody thought multiplayer in Mass Effect was going to be a bad idea -- and it would have been, if you tried to turn the single player into a multiplayer experience. But by integrating an alternate co-op mode, the game effectively let the single player experience do what it did best, and let the multiplayer do what it did best. The game as a whole is better for it.

Adding co-op functionality to the single player portion is what would really feel tacked on. I vote for a substantive, but separate, co-op mode very akin to ME3's. No "content" is locked out, because it can be played by oneself. No content was diverted, because it'd be developed by a different team. Nobody loses anything, but in fact everybody gets a little bit more, even those players who never touch one or the other modes.

 

ME3 MP wan't co-op it was PvP but the second P happened to be AI. There is totaly different feel to co-op than what ME3 gave.



#12
Treacherous J Slither

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I really like your mp ideas Rabbit. Sounds like it would be very addictive.

#13
Malanek

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ME3 MP wan't co-op it was PvP but the second P happened to be AI. There is totaly different feel to co-op than what ME3 gave.

Would you care to explain that. Would you agree that co-op multiplayer is simply being able to work with one or more other players against the AI? If so why do you think it doesn't fit that description?



#14
goishen

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I was confused by that as well.   With the big e-sports companies out there now, I thought this was clearly defined by them.  But I decided not to post anything.  



#15
StealthGamer92

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Would you care to explain that. Would you agree that co-op multiplayer is simply being able to work with one or more other players against the AI? If so why do you think it doesn't fit that description?

2 reasons. 1st small maps with no incentive to explore together or even play with another person. 2nd horde/wave setup. It is like Halo 4's Spartan Ops(which I liked) but it doesn't have the good level design or story that made me keep playing. It was also too chaotic, I know there is always chaos in these kind of games but there is a line for me where it stops being fun and becomes boring like a job.



#16
StealthGamer92

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I was confused by that as well.   With the big e-sports companies out there now, I thought this was clearly defined by them.  But I decided not to post anything.  

I don't keep up with that, so this is all based on my previous game experiences and the feeling certain game modes and setup's give off to me.



#17
Malanek

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2 reasons. 1st small maps with no incentive to explore together or even play with another person. 2nd horde/wave setup. It is like Halo 4's Spartan Ops(which I liked) but it doesn't have the good level design or story that made me keep playing. It was also too chaotic, I know there is always chaos in these kind of games but there is a line for me where it stops being fun and becomes boring like a job.

 

On your first point, the size of the map and whether it requires exploration, while it is fine to express your opinion wanting that, is completely irrelevant whether it is co-op or not. There is an argument to be had about just how vital it is to stick together. But saying there is no incentive in ME3 is just wrong, the game is clearly easier when you work together. But at the same time it is not too difficult for experienced players to solo the highest difficulty level.

 

There is quite a big design decision over how important teamwork should be. Useful vs essential. I am a bit torn on it. I love the fact you can solo it for additional challenge but would also like to see a few more mechanics built in to encourage more teamwork. Obviously ME4 will be different but to use ME3 as an example, sync kills could have been more frequent but also more easily disrupted by a teammate. I don't really want to see teamwork made completely essential, but would like the level of usefulness dialed up.

 

On your second point, how good the level design is (which is subjective, I thought this was fine in ME3) doesn't have anything to do with whether it is co-op. Adding story actually makes it more problematic for co-op, especially when it comes to replay-ability. Once you have seen the story once, twice or hundreds of times, it is more something that bogs things down and gets in the way while another teammate who wants to see it will be pressured to skip. I would like to see story, but only if there is an editor so people can make their own missions. It is something that would need to be constantly updated to keep things fresh and there is now way Bioware can produce enough content to do so. An editor is the only way that can work to a high degree imo.

 

I'm not really sure what you point about chaos is. I can understand the game might seem chaotic if the difficulty is too high or your teammates are much better and faster than you. But I'm not sure why it would seem like a job?



#18
StealthGamer92

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On your first point, the size of the map and whether it requires exploration, while it is fine to express your opinion wanting that, is completely irrelevant whether it is co-op or not. There is an argument to be had about just how vital it is to stick together. But saying there is no incentive in ME3 is just wrong, the game is clearly easier when you work together. But at the same time it is not too difficult for experienced players to solo the highest difficulty level.

 

There is quite a big design decision over how important teamwork should be. Useful vs essential. I am a bit torn on it. I love the fact you can solo it for additional challenge but would also like to see a few more mechanics built in to encourage more teamwork. Obviously ME4 will be different but to use ME3 as an example, sync kills could have been more frequent but also more easily disrupted by a teammate. I don't really want to see teamwork made completely essential, but would like the level of usefulness dialed up.

 

On your second point, how good the level design is (which is subjective, I thought this was fine in ME3) doesn't have anything to do with whether it is co-op. Adding story actually makes it more problematic for co-op, especially when it comes to replay-ability. Once you have seen the story once, twice or hundreds of times, it is more something that bogs things down and gets in the way while another teammate who wants to see it will be pressured to skip. I would like to see story, but only if there is an editor so people can make their own missions. It is something that would need to be constantly updated to keep things fresh and there is now way Bioware can produce enough content to do so. An editor is the only way that can work to a high degree imo.

 

I'm not really sure what you point about chaos is. I can understand the game might seem chaotic if the difficulty is too high or your teammates are much better and faster than you. But I'm not sure why it would seem like a job?

 

I am aware my problems arize from my perception of what co-op is. When I hear co-op I am thinking like Splinter Cell Blacklist or Halo where my playstyle can assist my partners. ME3 maps though made my playstyle useless. I am a sniper in any game that allows it which means I stay back where I'm relatively safe and assist my team from afar. When I saw that wouldn't work in ME I tried other characters but never fit because I would always start off decent then get bored for the following reason.

 

I gave up on semi-auto and burst fire because full auto worked best I used powers like crazy because I had to. That is when I started being able to keep up, BUT it wasn't me it was a character that worked with a stratedgy that worked. Every time I played I was just useing what worked and it wasn't fun it was a chore just for Galactic Readiness.

 

As for chaos I am a tactical marksman type of player and I consider haveing to move alot and enemy AI that move too much(as in running straight at me even though they should be takeing cover or useing some kinda tactic... like Halo PvP is when there are nothing but amaiers with AR's in the match). I want to not be able to predict the AI movement as easy as I can in ME3MP.

 

Boy this post is a mess and I still don't think I got my feeling on the subject across properly :P

 

EDIt: map size is very important if you are going to put sniper rifles and a class supposed to be the " Sniper Class" in you're game.



#19
goishen

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Well, I'm sorry that the game didn't fit into your play style. 

 

Me?  It fit like a glove.  I still play it everyday.



#20
StealthGamer92

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Well, I'm sorry that the game didn't fit into your play style. 

 

Me?  It fit like a glove.  I still play it everyday.

 

I don't think it has to change just for me but it should just get rid of the sniper builds in it unless they plan to support em. And not tie it to anything in SP. I won't lie if it felt optional I coulda really got into it, though I still would not consider it co-op but I could've not been so woried about "I gotta do good to improve SP" to where I could just play it for fun. I'd still have to play the other character but it would be by choice not by necesity.