270 réponses à ce sujet

[LOLandStuff]

My reply was about how Vivienne earned her place and pointing out that only by sheer she luck did manage to get where she is. Her lover was the head of the heralds, I highly doubt he had nothing to do with it.

What put me off the most was her comment after his death. The guy was flawed, but it's ok, he had rank and power to make up for it. That makes it sound like she was in an abusive relation but endured it because maybe one day it'll pay off.

Vivienne is good only on her own turf among orlesians, the outside just isn't for her. And doesn't really care about it unless it affects her.

[daveliam]

My reply was about how Vivienne earned her place and pointing out that only by sheer she luck did manage to get where she is. Her lover was the head of the heralds, I highly doubt he had nothing to do with it.

What put me off the most was her comment after his death. The guy was flawed, but it's ok, he had rank and power to make up for it. That makes it sound like she was in an abusive relation but endured it because maybe one day it'll pay off.

Vivienne is good only on her own turf among orlesians, the outside just isn't for her. And doesn't really care about it unless it affects her.

 

He absolutely had something to do with it.  She's up front about that.  She talks about how her relationship with him opened many doors for her.  So what?  That doesn't mean that it was 'sheer luck'.  She is still a powerful mage, academic, and skilled in politics.  Has there ever been any indication that she was unworthy of her position?  A few snarky lines about how her Bastien helped her get there, but does anyone say that she's not capable?  

 

Re: her comment after his death, I've never interpreted her statements in that way at all and, frankly, never seen anyone else interpret it that way either.  I have always read it as her loving Bastien deeply, mourning him, but also seizing an opportunity to secure a place for herself now that he's gone.  He was a strong patron of hers, after all, so with his death, her position becomes more tenuous.  The dialogue suggests that she's always had a warm relationship with his family, so I see that conversation with his sister and son as her taking the opportunity to see them and also making sure that she can give them something so that she can have a favor coming in to her in the future.

 

Also, she speaks warmly of the Montsimmard Circle.  She has good things to say about it and thinks fondly of her time there and the friends she made there (which also suggests that she was there for a while).  I think she does well in numerous settings.  She's best in the Orlesian Court and an academic setting like the Montsimmard Circle.  She also does just fine in the Inquisition.  In fact, people (Blackwall, Sera) try to insult her by insinuating that she's too prim and spoiled to be comfortable there and she just laughs it off dismissively.  Would she do well in other settings?  Not sure.  Depends on the setting, I guess.

[thesuperdarkone2]

How stuck up do you have to be to have your greatest fear be becoming irrelevant.

[Lady Artifice]

Discussions about Vivienne really seem to turn to the color of her skin more often than is warranted. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

How stuck up do you have to be to have your greatest fear be becoming irrelevant.

 

Participating in the Imperial Court twists a person's mind and proprieties more then Fade ever could. 

 

The place is just toxic to the soul and desperately needs someone to throw a bee bomb to empty it. 

[In Exile]

Except for the fact that every circle is differnet, other mages are also won there freedom, and her arguments against the rebellions is "when" they did it no why.

That Circles are different just means that someone from a different circle has no place commenting on another circle. Vivienne - who is outside the Circles almost entirely - has no business commenting on what any of them did.

And the "when" is very much tied up with the "why". She's saying endure a few more months/years of human rights abuse so that Vivienne is adequately satisfied a vote wouldn't appear to endorse Kirkwall and/or an attempt on the Divine. She chastises the mages for not thinking about how worried the masses are, but that's akin to saying the minority isn't thinking about the majority's feelings.

Her entire view amounts to suck it up and pick a better time, which devalues the abuse entirely despite the fact that she was never even exposed to it.

[Cecilia]

Well crud I'm terrible at that my attention span hardly allows that. ^^;

 

What you can do with dragon fights is just play Viv as your controlled character the whole way through - I forgot to pick up the specializations WT quest right after I reached Skyhold on my first playthrough and wandered into RQR in the Hinterlands, so my party had a lot of trouble with the dragon. I remembered reading about Viv's specialization being op somewhere and since companions get theirs automatically, I just switched to her and ignored all of the other characters and it worked out perfectly well~ we were a little underleveled and undergeared for a dragon fight and everyone else died twice, but just spam that SB, hoard focus, and use the times when the dragon is flying to use Viv's focus skill/normal revive and get people back up off the ground.

[ComedicSociopathy]

That Circles are different just means that someone from a different circle has no place commenting on another circle. Vivienne - who is outside the Circles almost entirely - has no business commenting on what any of them did.

And the "when" is very much tied up with the "why". She's saying endure a few more months/years of human rights abuse so that Vivienne is adequately satisfied a vote wouldn't appear to endorse Kirkwall and/or an attempt on the Divine. She chastises the mages for not thinking about how worried the masses are, but that's akin to saying the minority isn't thinking about the majority's feelings.

Her entire view amounts to suck it up and pick a better time, which devalues the abuse entirely despite the fact that she was never even exposed to it.

 

True, her ability to sympathize with the 'malcontents' is rather lacking and she refuses to see things in their point of view or even acknowledge that the rebel mages were essentially forced to rebel at an inopportune time because of the Templars harsh restrictions. Add that to fact that she immediately uses military might to force the mages back in the Circle, without even bothering to try and negotiate peacefully, we that Vivienne doesn't give much of a care for any mage that doesn't share her opinion.

 

That said, she does still give them more freedom under the Circle, even if that new freedom is dependent solely on her good graces. 

[daveliam]

Just found this blog post that lists all of the character descriptions from the game files.  Here's what it says about Bastien:

 

<CharacterName> Duke Bastien
  <CharacterDescription> Duke Bastien de Ghyslain is in his 80s and on his deathbed. He suffered a stroke and has been drifting in and out of consciousness for some time. His mistress, Odette, is a very powerful mage, however, and she concocts a potion that will restore his youth, hoping this will save his life. She is partially successful. He becomes younger, but it is not enough to save him in the end.

 

It calls his mistress "Odette" instead of Vivienne (perhaps that was her original character name?), but it makes her intentions pretty clear.  She's not trying to poison or kill him.  She's trying to restore his youth in hopes that it will save his life.

[Addai]

Well that's pretty convincing, I agree. It doesn't improve the character for me any, but it does make her less conniving than she had seemed.

[daveliam]

Well that's pretty convincing, I agree. It doesn't improve the character for me any, but it does make her less conniving than she had seemed.

 

Yeah, that's probably the right decision.  Here's her character description and, frankly, it definitely doesn't do much favor for her reputation! 

 

<CharacterName> Vivienne
  <CharacterDescription> She is refinement. A commoner, born in the Free Marches, who has risen through the Orlesian Imperial Court, mistress of a powerful noble on the Council of Heralds, official Enchanter of the Imperial Court (a position now threatened by Morrigan) and leader of the last remnant of the Circle. She is connected. She knows anyone, can befriend anyone, and if she can’t… well, she can manipulate them instead. She is ruthless and will do anything to accomplish her goals. Vivenne is somewhere between Mrs. Coulter and the Wicked Queen from Snow White. Elegant and charming with a heart of solid ice and an obsessive need for order. She is never direct. She will not antagonize an Inquisitor for disagreeing with her. She will try to charm her adversaries first, and if that fails, resort to guile and manipulation. When she does criticize, it is through catty, biting comments. Her temper, though rarely seen, is utterly terrifying.
  <SpeechPattern> Educated, superior, extremely polished.

[AresKeith]

I like her even more after that

[Riot Inducer]

You know, I think the one thing I really don't like involving Vivienne is the fact that you can't kick her out of the inquisition if she gets on your bad side. I mean you can tell Sera to hit the road at any point but Vivienne who can be equally as abrasive of a character, nope stuck with that buyers remorse for life. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

You know, I think the one thing I really don't like involving Vivienne is the fact that you can't kick her out of the inquisition if she gets on your bad side. I mean you can tell Sera to hit the road at any point but Vivienne who can be equally as abrasive of a character, nope stuck with that buyers remorse for life. 

 

Agreed. It's ridiculous how we can't kick any other of the non-plot critical companions out whenever we want or even have the opportunity to so during their designated disapproval rant. 

[Ryriena]

Agreed. I hate that I can't smack her down a peg or two and tell her to leave since she is a petty woman with no sense of morals. I have wacth as my Inquisitor iq drops while speaking to her to make look like she awsome at her conversations.

[daveliam]

Slightly OT (but on topic for the current few posts):

 

Has anyone ever seen a list compiled of all of the ways in which companions can leave?  I know that most of them can leave after being recruited, but I'm not sure which ones and what conditions.  Are Vivienne and Cassandra the only ones that you can't get to leave? 

 

I know that you can definitely get Sera, Blackwall, Solas, and Dorian to leave.  And I've heard that you can get Varrc and Cole to leave too.  What about Bull?

[In Exile]

Agreed. It's ridiculous how we can't kick any other of the non-plot critical companions out whenever we want or even have the opportunity to so during their designated disapproval rant.

I wonder if the reason ties in with the divine election. Maybe the system gets borked if you kick her out?

[Addai]

She is never direct. She will not antagonize an Inquisitor for disagreeing with her.

Wow. I think that must have gone through heavy revision in the final version.
 

Agreed. I hate that I can't smack her down a peg or two and tell her to leave since she is a petty woman with no sense of morals. I have wacth as my Inquisitor iq drops while speaking to her to make look like she awsome at her conversations.

The only time I can recall where you get a good comeback is if you ally with the mages and she rants about how many abominations are going to be running wild. You can ask her if you should be concerned about her and post guards outside her door. Lol, I loved that.

[Ryriena]

Yeah I love that comeback but mostly that was the only time I felt any good with my arrugments against her.

[Korva]

I rather like and respect Vivienne as a character but not as a person. Meaning, she makes sense to me, she certainly knows what she wants and is quite good at making sure she gets it. Still, I find her mannerisms intolerable. There isn't much I loathe more than disruptive, arrogant ******* characters who always get away with vomiting contempt all over everyone else (be it protagonist, fellow party members, or any outsider I happen to be talking to). If I'm supposed to put up with a companion, I expect one thing first and foremost: for them at at least try to fit in and get along, to be a team player, not a snotty little brat who thinks they're "2 k3wl 4 u lololololol". No matter how cultured, eloquent and intelligent Vivienne is, no matter what fancy manners and faux-friendliness she dresses it up in, that's what it boils down to in my book.

 

She's not as utterly without any redeeming features as, say, Morrigan, but I just see absolutely no reason for her to be an active companion instead of some fancy-pants agent on Josephine's roster ... and closely watched by the people on Leliana's roster because there's no way a career politician like her doesn't have an ulterior motive for offering to help us. Or even just an outside ally (or "ally") who may or may not turn on us at some point. Stick her in a role where she actually belongs and at which she is good at and useful, and the character would make a lot more sense, while also reducing the constant in-your-face annoyance of her attitude problem. As it is, she doesn't actually do anything beside jockey for favor as the surprise-Divine behind our backs. And that is kind of a shame, because her potential as a character -- which is undeniably has! -- is kind of wasted as being the poncy pain-in-the-ass who sticks out like a sore thumb instead of the masterful politician she should be if we were allowed to see her in her element.

 

Long story short: definitely an example of a character who should never have been a party member, but a player in her own right during the plot. It would do her a lot more justice and tick me off a lot less (at least if I can counter and foil her if needed).

Modifié par Korva, 20 février 2015 - 06:58 .

[mireisen]

I absolutely love Vivienne. 

 

Type A's get a lot of hate. I get this and as a fellow Type A, I strongly resonate with Vivienne. I've been called aggressive, which I think is just pure initiative. I've been accused of speaking down to people when I'm just eloquently spoken (usually those lacking confidence would attack me). Viv just oozes confidence. Even when she has her moment of weakness (losing her Duke) she's still poised and graceful. 

 

Viv speaks truth. Even Cassandra recognizes that people should "heed her words carefully". Someone like Viv probably has gone through a hellish start, that is how people of her caliber are forged. You can't have strong steel without dousing it in fire first. She doesn't need to pretend because she just is. She takes suffering and sacrifice as a necessity for greatness. It shows in her attitude and her decisions in life. And this is, to me, very true.

 

I'd also rather have a blunt, objective companion than someone who'd soothe your ego at every turn. To me, that's just lying. Vivienne might seem like a bully to the likes of others, but she doesn't tell you her opinions unless prompted. So if you pet the tiger, don't be surprised if it bites your hand off. The only way to tame a predator or to understand one is becoming one yourself, and that's really thrilling.

 

That's why I love Vivienne. She's such a great character. And you haters can keep hating, because...

 

[Incantrix]

I absolutely love Vivienne. 

 

Type A's get a lot of hate. I get this and as a fellow Type A, I strongly resonate with Vivienne. I've been called aggressive, which I think is just pure initiative. I've been accused of speaking down to people when I'm just eloquently spoken (usually those lacking confidence would attack me). Viv just oozes confidence. Even when she has her moment of weakness (losing her Duke) she's still poised and graceful. 

 

Viv speaks truth. Even Cassandra recognizes that people should "heed her words carefully". Someone like Viv probably has gone through a hellish start, that is how people of her caliber are forged. You can't have strong steel without dousing it in fire first. She doesn't need to pretend because she just is. She takes suffering and sacrifice as a necessity for greatness. It shows in her attitude and her decisions in life. And this is, to me, very true.

 

I'd also rather have a blunt, objective companion than someone who'd soothe your ego at every turn. To me, that's just lying. Vivienne might seem like a bully to the likes of others, but she doesn't tell you her opinions unless prompted. So if you pet the tiger, don't be surprised if it bites your hand off. The only way to tame a predator or to understand one is becoming one yourself, and that's really thrilling.

 

That's why I love Vivienne. She's such a great character. And you haters can keep hating, because...

 

You're probably right. 

 

Only the most assertive people get ahead in life. Nice people finish last. I'm sure Vivienne follows that saying closely.

[Addai]

Type A's get a lot of hate.

Not really my problem with her. I'd more ask you- what is it that she gets done, exactly? Other than advance her own position. And frankly, she's kind of slipping there, too, since Celene doesn't seem to mind her being gone, she's writing notes to "Lady M" and appoints Morrigan to the Inquisition whereas Vivienne appoints herself. I guess you could see that as assertiveness, but how indispensable is she in the court if she can just do that? And there's the fact that she neither appears in the events of the rebellion, the earlier assassination attempts on Celene, or in the events of The Masked Empire regarding the Orlesian civil war. Granted that Bioware obviously hadn't created her yet since she's not named in The Masked Empire (just referred to her by her moniker) and the dev notes call her Odette. But it's apparent why her Fade fear is irrelevance.

I suppose you could say she is pulling strings behind the scenes. I ignore the war table quests that have to do with squabbling Orlesian nobility, so I'm honestly not sure what those produce in the end.
 

Viv speaks truth. Even Cassandra recognizes that people should "heed her words carefully".

Could this not be because she and Cassandra both have basically the same stance on most issues?
 

I'd also rather have a blunt, objective companion than someone who'd soothe your ego at every turn.

Generally I like this, too. I love Morrigan, for instance. BFFs. I also expected to like Vivienne somewhat, and was amused by her bitchiness at first, plus Indira Varma's voice work is outstanding and I've always liked that actress since HBO's Rome days. However, I find both Sera and Vivienne to be just plain unpleasant after a while. Sera at least has some innocence to her. Vivienne's commentary on locations and quest is just so acerbic that it becomes stale and flat rather quickly, for me. The best was the fireworks between her and Solas but that grew old quickly, too. *Edit: I think, for me, this is like having Anders and Fenris in the same party, only Vivienne is that way to every single companion and NPC. At least the ones I had along.

I'm sure it's a matter of taste, but I couldn't let your dismissal of haters as being intimidated by strong personalities go by without comment.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I rather like and respect Vivienne as a character but not as a person. Meaning, she makes sense to me, she certainly knows what she wants and is quite good at making sure she gets it. Still, I find her mannerisms intolerable. There isn't much I loathe more than disruptive, arrogant ******* characters who always get away with vomiting contempt all over everyone else (be it protagonist, fellow party members, or any outsider I happen to be talking to). If I'm supposed to put up with a companion, I expect one thing first and foremost: for them at at least try to fit in and get along, to be a team player, not a snotty little brat who thinks they're "2 k3wl 4 u lololololol". No matter how cultured, eloquent and intelligent Vivienne is, no matter what fancy manners and faux-friendliness she dresses it up in, that's what it boils down to in my book.

 

She's not as utterly without any redeeming features as, say, Morrigan, but I just see absolutely no reason for her to be an active companion instead of some fancy-pants agent on Josephine's roster ... and closely watched by the people on Leliana's roster because there's no way a career politician like her doesn't have an ulterior motive for offering to help us. Or even just an outside ally (or "ally") who may or may not turn on us at some point. Stick her in a role where she actually belongs and at which she is good at and useful, and the character would make a lot more sense, while also reducing the constant in-your-face annoyance of her attitude problem. As it is, she doesn't actually do anything beside jockey for favor as the surprise-Divine behind our backs. And that is kind of a shame, because her potential as a character -- which is undeniably has! -- is kind of wasted as being the poncy pain-in-the-ass who sticks out like a sore thumb instead of the masterful politician she should be if we were allowed to see her in her element.

 

Long story short: definitely an example of a character who should never have been a party member, but a player in her own right during the plot. It would do her a lot more justice and tick me off a lot less (at least if I can counter and foil her if needed).

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but saying she shouldn't have been a party member is probably a little too much. I think she provides a fascinating perspective as a party member, something that balances out and complements the team's intellect in various ways.

[Xilizhra]

I'd also rather have a blunt, objective companion than someone who'd soothe your ego at every turn. To me, that's just lying. Vivienne might seem like a bully to the likes of others, but she doesn't tell you her opinions unless prompted. So if you pet the tiger, don't be surprised if it bites your hand off. The only way to tame a predator or to understand one is becoming one yourself, and that's really thrilling.

No, it's not. You can tame Vivienne just fine by speaking fairly blandly, running a couple of errands, and then opposing all of her policy decisions anyway.