270 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

I rather like and respect Vivienne as a character but not as a person. Meaning, she makes sense to me, she certainly knows what she wants and is quite good at making sure she gets it. Still, I find her mannerisms intolerable. There isn't much I loathe more than disruptive, arrogant ******* characters who always get away with vomiting contempt all over everyone else (be it protagonist, fellow party members, or any outsider I happen to be talking to). If I'm supposed to put up with a companion, I expect one thing first and foremost: for them at at least try to fit in and get along, to be a team player, not a snotty little brat who thinks they're "2 k3wl 4 u lololololol". No matter how cultured, eloquent and intelligent Vivienne is, no matter what fancy manners and faux-friendliness she dresses it up in, that's what it boils down to in my book.

 

She's not as utterly without any redeeming features as, say, Morrigan, but I just see absolutely no reason for her to be an active companion instead of some fancy-pants agent on Josephine's roster ... and closely watched by the people on Leliana's roster because there's no way a career politician like her doesn't have an ulterior motive for offering to help us. Or even just an outside ally (or "ally") who may or may not turn on us at some point. Stick her in a role where she actually belongs and at which she is good at and useful, and the character would make a lot more sense, while also reducing the constant in-your-face annoyance of her attitude problem. As it is, she doesn't actually do anything beside jockey for favor as the surprise-Divine behind our backs. And that is kind of a shame, because her potential as a character -- which is undeniably has! -- is kind of wasted as being the poncy pain-in-the-ass who sticks out like a sore thumb instead of the masterful politician she should be if we were allowed to see her in her element.

 

Long story short: definitely an example of a character who should never have been a party member, but a player in her own right during the plot. It would do her a lot more justice and tick me off a lot less (at least if I can counter and foil her if needed).

 

Vivienne doesn't even try to campaign for becoming Divine unless the player themselves suggests it. Otherwise, she reccommends that the Inquisitor support Cassandra, whom she has a lot of respect for.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I think one of the reason why I find Vivienne to be not much of an engaging character is because how quickly you can exhaust dialogue options. Her word budget seems to the smallest with only Varric beating her out for how little there is out it.  

[In Exile]

Vivienne doesn't even try to campaign for becoming Divine unless the player themselves suggests it. Otherwise, she reccommends that the Inquisitor support Cassandra, whom she has a lot of respect for.

She is not recommending Cassandra at all. She's damming her with faint praise. It's akin to saying "Well, if you're going to be beaten in an alley, at least if they use a sack of flour you won't visibly bruise."

She is fishing for you to consider someone else by pointing out Cassandra's flaws in an indirect way.

[Rekkampum]

She is not recommending Cassandra at all. She's damming her with faint praise. It's akin to saying "Well, if you're going to be beaten in an alley, at least if they use a sack of flour you won't visibly bruise."

She is fishing for you to consider someone else by pointing out Cassandra's flaws in an indirect way.

 

No, you're just interpolating what she says and allowing your bias to color her words. She clearly recommends that Cassandra would be a good Divine.

[Wulfram]

Vivienne's list of desirable qualities for a divine - "grace, charm and a will of solid steel" - is pretty clearly intended to describe herself. She is clearly fishing for support.

She's also trying to get the Inquisitor to support Cassandra over Leliana - she really hates the idea of Leliana as Divine - if she can't win the Inquisitor's support, but she's definitely making a play.

[Rekkampum]

Vivienne's list of desirable qualities for a divine - "grace, charm and a will of solid steel" - is pretty clearly intended to describe herself. She is clearly fishing for support.

She's also trying to get the Inquisitor to support Cassandra over Leliana - she really hates the idea of Leliana as Divine - if she can't win the Inquisitor's support, but she's definitely making a play.

 

The option to support her never comes up unless you bring it up explicitly. Prior to that, the focus is purely on Cassandra and Leliana as those two are the ones that the Clerics have nominated. Claiming that she's fishing for support in light of these facts is iffy at best. As the Grand Enchanter she's already going to have a stake in the situation regardless of whether she's supported. Just hearing her speak with Cassandra in banters clearly shows that her respect and support of her is more than a game.

[ComedicSociopathy]

She's also trying to get the Inquisitor to support Cassandra over Leliana - she really hates the idea of Leliana as Divine - if she can't win the Inquisitor's support, but she's definitely making a play.

 

Which is why Leliana always gets to be Divine in my games. 

 

I may not hate Vivi but I do love to annoy her. 

[Addai]

I think one of the reason why I find Vivienne to be not much of an engaging character is because how quickly you can exhaust dialogue options. Her word budget seems to the smallest with only Varric beating her out for how little there is out it.

I think she also suffers from having no rivalry system and a lack of range in how you can respond to her, as we've said before. I was thinking about the comparison to Morrigan, and with Morrigan you can actually call her a b-word to her face, ask her if she'd just had her first feeling (lol), etc. The PC can never spar with Vivienne on equal footing, or even be dick- unless I just haven't tried hard enough, which is possible.
 

By the way I wanted to say that this thread has been a pleasure thanks to the thoughtful discussion on both sides. Good character debate is the best, and I learned stuff about Vivienne. I'm actually glad I was apparently wrong about her and Bastien, because between them and Celene x Briala, that's just depressing.

[Rekkampum]

I think she also suffers from having no rivalry system and a lack of range in how you can respond to her, as we've said before. I was thinking about the comparison to Morrigan, and with Morrigan you can actually call her a b-word to her face, ask her if she'd just had her first feeling (lol), etc. The PC can never spar with Vivienne on equal footing, or even be dick- unless I just haven't tried hard enough, which is possible.
 

By the way I wanted to say that this thread has been a pleasure thanks to the thoughtful discussion on both sides. Good character debate is the best, and I learned stuff about Vivienne. I'm actually glad I was apparently wrong about her and Bastien, because between them and Celene x Briala, that's just depressing.

 

I do wish we could've done more in that dep't as far as debating goes. That way if she did pwn me, I'd know that she earned it. I think the dirtiest thing a player can do is screw her over with the wyvern heart, which is probably worse than going against her advice and choosing Leliana as Divine. I think I enjoyed doing the latter with a hardened Leliana. Listening to Cole totally ruin her with his jedi mind tricks is also fun.

[Cecilia]

I think she also suffers from having no rivalry system and a lack of range in how you can respond to her, as we've said before. I was thinking about the comparison to Morrigan, and with Morrigan you can actually call her a b-word to her face, ask her if she'd just had her first feeling (lol), etc. The PC can never spar with Vivienne on equal footing, or even be dick- unless I just haven't tried hard enough, which is possible.
 

By the way I wanted to say that this thread has been a pleasure thanks to the thoughtful discussion on both sides. Good character debate is the best, and I learned stuff about Vivienne. I'm actually glad I was apparently wrong about her and Bastien, because between them and Celene x Briala, that's just depressing.

 

Yay~ I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion (& that this thread achieved my goal)! The points you brought up did get me thinking more critically about how Viv as a character can be read very differently depending on your context - even if the writers (Word of God) intend for a certain context, that doesn't mean that the Inquisitor as a character is going to take it that way. After all, Varric thought for the longest time that Cass just wanted to lock Hawke up, even though that turned out to not be the case at all. 

 

I do wish we could've done more in that dep't as far as debating goes. That way if she did pwn me, I'd know that she earned it. I think the dirtiest thing a player can do is screw her over with the wyvern heart, which is probably worse than going against her advice and choosing Leliana as Divine. I think I enjoyed doing the latter with a hardened Leliana. Listening to Cole totally ruin her with his jedi mind tricks is also fun.

 

Viv is definitely a character that would have benefited from more complex interactions - through the interactions with Cole, we are told that there are a lot of layers there (also worth noting that the food they compare her to is this fairly ... horrificintermsofprep French fowl dish that implies Viv has at least a mild case of "learned to love her chains") and that, coupled with the tarot cards they chose for her, leads me to wonder if there shouldn't have been a more obvious change in her philosophy and opinions between the start and the finish of the game. She and Sera are the two characters that exhibit the least growth, but are implied through meta-elements to be the characters that should have undergone the most expansion to their world views as a result of the events of Inquisition. (The High Priestess > The World, The Fool > The Hanged Man - both sets are cards are ones that begin with an opportunity to learn, a gateway to deeper understanding/a blank slate of ignorance, and finishing with a card that implies enlightenment or application of knowledge gained) 

 

I think the writers did a wonderful job with both characters, but failed to genuinely follow through - perhaps in a DLC? 

[Rekkampum]

Yay~ I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion (& that this thread achieved my goal)! The points you brought up did get me thinking more critically about how Viv as a character can be read very differently depending on your context - even if the writers (Word of God) intend for a certain context, that doesn't mean that the Inquisitor as a character is going to take it that way. After all, Varric thought for the longest time that Cass just wanted to lock Hawke up, even though that turned out to not be the case at all. 

 

 

Viv is definitely a character that would have benefited from more complex interactions - through the interactions with Cole, we are told that there are a lot of layers there (also worth noting that the food they compare her to is this fairly ... horrificintermsofprep French fowl dish that implies Viv has at least a mild case of "learned to love her chains") and that, coupled with the tarot cards they chose for her, leads me to wonder if there shouldn't have been a more obvious change in her philosophy and opinions between the start and the finish of the game. She and Sera are the two characters that exhibit the least growth, but are implied through meta-elements to be the characters that should have undergone the most expansion to their world views as a result of the events of Inquisition. (The High Priestess > The World, The Fool > The Hanged Man - both sets are cards are ones that begin with an opportunity to learn, a gateway to deeper understanding/a blank slate of ignorance, and finishing with a card that implies enlightenment or application of knowledge gained) 

 

I think the writers did a wonderful job with both characters, but failed to genuinely follow through - perhaps in a DLC? 

 

A romanced Sera has a lot of characterization to her in comparison to what a non-romanced one has.

 

And yes, I know what you're referring to as far as that dish is called. That one where they

Spoiler

starve a fowl and then drown it in brandy.

It's a french delicacy from what I remember, although conservationists have been calling attention to it.

[SgtSteel91]

Vivienne doesn't even try to campaign for becoming Divine unless the player themselves suggests it. Otherwise, she reccommends that the Inquisitor support Cassandra, whom she has a lot of respect for.

 

Does this include expressing a desire to see Mages in the Chantry when talking to her after In Hushed Whispers/Champion of the Just?

[Rekkampum]

Does this include expressing a desire to see Mages in the Chantry when talking to her after In Hushed Whispers/Champion of the Just?

 

You'd have to reword this in order for me to better understand what you're asking.

[Hazegurl]

She is not recommending Cassandra at all. She's damming her with faint praise. It's akin to saying "Well, if you're going to be beaten in an alley, at least if they use a sack of flour you won't visibly bruise."

She is fishing for you to consider someone else by pointing out Cassandra's flaws in an indirect way.

I like Viv and even I agree with this. Viv is playing the game here, she doesn't for a single second see Cass as graceful.  I see it more like she's listing her own qualities. She doesn't want to outright make her claim but she wants the thought to sink in. All one has to do is think of her question back in Haven where one of the answers is "I think Mages should be in the Chantry." to which she gives a good approval boost.

[daveliam]

I like Viv and even I agree with this. Viv is playing the game here, she doesn't for a single second see Cass as graceful.  I see it more like she's listing her own qualities. She doesn't want to outright make her claim but she wants the thought to sink in. All one has to do is think of her question back in Haven where one of the answers is "I think Mages should be in the Chantry." to which she gives a good approval boost.

 

Yeah, I agree with this as well.  She's clearly testing the waters out here.  Especially since the "Mages should be in the Chantry" option from the earlier dialogue not only gives her "Greatly Approves", but also gives her 5 "Divine point".  She's feeling out whether you might support her.  She's framing it by highlighting the aspects of the job that she would excel at, specifically focusing on Cassandra, who lacks many of those.  And, I also don't think that her support of Cassandra is fully due to her (Cass) reform platform.  It's because she (Vivienne) is much more threatened by Leliana, who is not only looking to make reform changes that could jeopardize Vivienne's status, but also is a skilled player of The Game in her own right.  Vivienne has much more to lose if Leliana gets the Sunburst Throne, so she's setting that conversation up with two purposes:  1.) Feel out how receptive the Inquisitor would be to her bid for the Divine position; and 2.) if that doesn't bear fruit, setting up Cassandra as the "better" option, so that Leliana is not as much of a threat.

[Boost32]

Yeah, I agree with this as well.  She's clearly testing the waters out here.  Especially since the "Mages should be in the Chantry" option from the earlier dialogue not only gives her "Greatly Approves", but also gives her 5 "Divine point".  She's feeling out whether you might support her.  She's framing it by highlighting the aspects of the job that she would excel at, specifically focusing on Cassandra, who lacks many of those.  And, I also don't think that her support of Cassandra is fully due to her (Cass) reform platform.  It's because she (Vivienne) is much more threatened by Leliana, who is not only looking to make reform changes that could jeopardize Vivienne's status, but also is a skilled player of The Game in her own right.  Vivienne has much more to lose if Leliana gets the Sunburst Throne, so she's setting that conversation up with two purposes:  1.) Feel out how receptive the Inquisitor would be to her bid for the Divine position; and 2.) if that doesn't bear fruit, setting up Cassandra as the "better" option, so that Leliana is not as much of a threat.

There are dialogues between Cassandra and Vivienne where she express support to Cassandra becoming Divine. I think Vivienne really think Cassandra would be a good Divine, but she clearly believes she would be a a better one.

Because of this I agree with Wulfran when he/she said she was fishing for the Inquisitor support, but if she cant, she wants to make sure he supports Cassandra.

[In Exile]

There are dialogues between Cassandra and Vivienne where she express support to Cassandra becoming Divine. I think Vivienne really think Cassandra would be a good Divine, but she clearly believes she would be a a better one.
Because of this I agree with Wulfran when he/she said she was fishing for the Inquisitor support, but if she cant, she wants to make sure he supports Cassandra.

She's nice to Cassandra because she's careful about allies who have status. The most relevant of which is Cass, but she's nice to the Inquisitor for the same reason at first.

[daveliam]

She's nice to Cassandra because she's careful about allies who have status. The most relevant of which is Cass, but she's nice to the Inquisitor for the same reason at first.

 

Do we ever see Leliana and Vivienne interact? Leliana also has status, so I'd be curious as to their relationship.  I can't remember if either really speak about each other outside of Vivienne talking about Leliana as Divine. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

No, you're just interpolating what she says and allowing your bias to color her words. She clearly recommends that Cassandra would be a good Divine.

If she thinks Cass should be divine, why is obviously trying to get influential members of the grand clerics to vote for Vivienne as Divine? Don't believe me? Get Vivienne's friendship scene and talk to Josephine afterwards. Josephine confirms that the people she brought were influential members of the grand clerics who hold lots of sway over the votes. Josephine not so subtly implies that it's strange that Vivienne is trying to gather their support, heavily implying she's trying to become Divine.

[LOLandStuff]

Do we ever see Leliana and Vivienne interact? Leliana also has status, so I'd be curious as to their relationship.  I can't remember if either really speak about each other outside of Vivienne talking about Leliana as Divine. 

 

They'd be talking about shoes.

[In Exile]

Do we ever see Leliana and Vivienne interact? Leliana also has status, so I'd be curious as to their relationship. I can't remember if either really speak about each other outside of Vivienne talking about Leliana as Divine.

Not really. And that's a shame. It's part of the issue with advisors not having banter.