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Vivienne: Complex Characters are so Thrilling, My Dear


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#26
MrGDL87

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I love Vivienne as a character because she gives us a pro-circle point of view as a mage. We really haven't had a companion like this and she gives a logical, rational argument that supports the circle system (I suppose you could consider Wynne but she wasn't that vocal in the support of the circle). Another reason I love the character is that she is resolute in her beliefs and is not influenced by the inquisitor.

 

I don't understand the argument that Vivienne wants to keep the mages suppressed. Vivienne acknowledges that there are abuses of power with the current system but it is better to fix the current system rather than create new problems with a new system. Vivienne is also a character that supports both mages and Templars and see the worth of both sides (which is rare for a companion). I don't think Vivienne is totally against mage freedom but it should be a gradual change rather than instantaneous.

Spoiler

 

Some people don't like her personality and that's fine as everyone has their own preferences. Vivienne also wasn't handed power on a plate as she would need to play the game extra hard just through being an outsider (non-orlesian).

 

However, there were times when I thought her character could have been examined in more detail and I think she could have played a larger role in the Winter Palace quest. I think she is a complex character because of her individual personality, her background/class and her role post inquisition. Personally, she is my favourite character of the series :)


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#27
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

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Specifically because of the templar crackdown in response. Did she miss that cause somehow?


Why would that be surprising? 1 mage recently murdered a grand cleric & another tried to kill the Divine, & the mages were upset over the Templars investigating the crime rather then a mage committing it
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#28
SgtSteel91

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Specifically because of the templar crackdown in response. Did she miss that cause somehow?

 

No, but she basically says that the Mages should have just bared with it until things blew over.



#29
AresKeith

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Why would that be surprising? 1 mage recently murdered a grand cleric & another tried to kill the Divine, & the mages were upset over the Templars investigating the crime rather then a mage committing it

 

Maker forbid Templars acting logical after two bad events happening 


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#30
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

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Maker forbid Templars acting logical after two bad events happening


Is dumb, "1 of our fellow mages just tried to murder the Divine, lets not condemn the attempt, lets protest against the Templars for investigating it instead" :huh:
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#31
CuriousArtemis

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I really love Vivienne. Great voice acting, strong and beautiful character, great to have yet another strong female character, complex, also great to have a complex and interesting person of color as a main character, etc.

 

With Vivienne I think they tried to show a reasonable side to the Circle and pro-templar support. It still doesn't compute, for me personally, coming from a mage. Vivienne seems so intelligent (and I suspect she is); she would surely advocate for more of a college than a prison. But then again, the epilogue is sufficiently vague that for all we know it could be more college- than circle-like. And the templars are "leashed" to her hand. 

 

Ah well, like so many things with DAI, just not enough detail given.



#32
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I love Vivienne as a character, unlike most of the world apparently, however, her opinion of mages and the Circle system essentially boils down to "I was incredibly fortunate to get everything I want out of life and now everyone else can go **** themselves."

 

Basically a magical capitalist, not cool.


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#33
AresKeith

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Is dumb, "1 of our fellow mages just tried to murder the Divine, lets not condemn the attempt, lets protest against the Templars for investigating it instead" :huh:

 

Right, or try to help the Templars investigate 



#34
Qun00

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The thing that people often seem to take as condescension to me seems like class. She's a classy woman who speaks her mind without apology.


That's an understatement.



With other characters, low approval results into a simple complaint. Vivienne is the only one who goes out of her way to mock you over diverging opinions.
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#35
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

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Right, or try to help the Templars investigate


The mages seemingly caught a bad case of the stupid, maybe a apprentice got too close to a Dalish clan :lol:


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#36
Qun00

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If she is Divine, she grants more freedoms to the mages (but we currently don't know how far this freedom extends) so she does care about her fellow mages. If she didn't then she could have just sat on the throne and done nothing.


Which is immediately negated by what she actually does.

"In the end, they refuse Vivienne's invitation to rejoin the Circle of Magi and instead reform the College of Enchanters as a new order.

The reaction from the new Divine is instantaneous: a war to dissolve the College before it begins.
Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant."

There is reforming the Circles, and then there is that. Free choice? That's just unthinkable, my dear.

It's also note worthing that after discussing the current Circles with you at Haven, she adds "The Circles are quite permissive. Too permissive, in retrospect".

#37
Cecilia

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I'm replaying the game now, so I'll be able to check that dialogue soon, but I think that Vivienne mentioned standing with the templars.

 

And given that the Circle is where elves of all people can reach any position that a human could--up to the point that an elf leads the entirety of the Circle--I find it incredibly unlikely that Vivienne being Rivaini would have barred her from advancement all that much. Especially since a mage Trevelyan can also be black.

 

I did some double checking and she does rally the Loyalist mages who take up arms against the rebellion, but I'm certain they did not fight on the side of the rebelling templars either. If we look at the rebellion it was more akin to a three-sided conflict with the Chantry, rebel mages, and templars. I did some research:

 

 

While the vote passed, it did so by a very slim margin. The other half of the mages who voted against secession were soon forced to fight the rebel mages, and united under First Enchanter Vivienne de Fer of the Montsimmard Circle. They identified themselves as "Loyalist" mages, wishing to reinstate the Circles and end the war. Meanwhile, the "Isolationist" mages, true to their name, chose to go into hiding rather than fight.

 

The implication here, which is held out by many of Vivienne's comments about the humanitarian cost of the rebellion (esp in the Hinterlands), is that they did not explicitly want to fight the other mages, the Loyalists simply sought an end to the conflict and a peaceful resolution (remember Viv proactively supports Cassandra's platform as Divine and her dialogue implies that she had the deepest respect for Justinia), but were forced into open conflict with the rebel mages because of their refusal to support the decision of the CoE (I can't find them off hand but I know there are codex entries about how some of the rebels turned on mages who had no wish to participate in the rebellion)

 

 

In 9:40 Dragon, in response to Justinia V's interference at the White Spire, Lord Seeker Lambert declared the Nevarran Accord, which had led to the Seekers and the Templars submitting to the Divine and establishing the Circle of Magi, to be null and void. 

 

 

Cassandra: You would prefer to have the templars return to guarding the circles, Vivienne?

Vivienne: Of course, my dear. They need better oversight, clearly, but one does not throw away a tool because it was misused.
Cassandra: Few mages would ask for templars in the circle.
Vivienne: Speak to Ferelden's first enchanter. You might be surprised. When abominations ravaged your tower, suddenly the world holds far too few templars.

 

 

Vivienne as Divine:

 

To the surprise of many, she reinstates the Circle of Magi and creates a Templar Order firmly leashed to her hand.

 
Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her.

 

Using these as context clues, it would be extremely difficult to see Viv supporting the rebelling templars any more than she supports the rebelling mages. Viv isn't pro-templar she's pro-templar-usage and views them as a tool that is to be used for the benefit of mages and non-mages, not something that should go gallivanting off on its own making its own decisions. The fact that none of the Loyalist mages are ever seen/mentioned/implied to be chasing after the rebels in the Hinterlands/Redcliffe also helps support the idea that it wasn't a proactive fight against the rebel mages, at least not after the actions of the LS Lambert. 

 

As to your second point - I don't think Viv ever cared to rise to power within the confines of the limited power mages hold in the Circles. I honestly think Viv wanted freedom as much as Anders, just not necessarily in the same context or through the same methods. She wanted genuine political power and the ability to have a real impact on the world/society around her (for better/worse Viv thought she was the lady for every job and all the jobs). She played the Game as a means through which she could free herself from the limitations of the Circles and, if we look at her Divine ending, she will use her power to recreate that possibility for all mages. Viv may want templars to be part of the Circle, but she (ironically) uses her templars almost the same way the Tevinter Imperium uses theirs - as a tool for the mages rather than a power over over them. I don't like her as Divine because I don't think a system should rely upon the force of character of one person alone (Viv may be doing a good job in the positive epilogue, but what happens when she dies? too much of her system depends on her micromanaging everything) and Cass (even Lel) offer more sustainable systems due to their focus on rebuilding institutions rather than simply changing the leadership.

 

This is also why Viv is very "meh" about mages like Anders who think the only way to change the system is for them to blow up Chantries - I admit, I think she is blinkered here because she never lived in any of the harsher Circles and while she has heard about them second hand and does say "protest against the abuses of the templars" that's not a replacement for first hand experience - but within the context of her experience, it is a little "oh come on are you really saying we couldn't have done this differently? I was doing this differently and then all of you went and ruined the whole sodding show." I don't agree that Viv's methods are the best ones - I think systemic change is sometimes necessary to varying extents (go Cass!) - but there's nothing inherently wrong with being a top-down reformist the way she is, it's a valid perspective and works in some contexts and doesn't work in others.

 

Also in terms of skin color, I think the game sort of ignores all of your choices outside of species/gender/class because you have protag!armor for everything else (it's like Cullen in DAII being oblivious to Hawke's staff), but we definitely have Viv facing discrimination for her skin color:

 

 

Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.

Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."

 

/side note I miss book analysis so much rn because then I can just ctrl/f my ebooks to find quotes and lore rather than all this blighted wiki googling and youtube surfing for quotes


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#38
Guest_Imanol de Tafalla_*

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Personally, I think Vivienne's ethnicity made her even more cringeworthy than her personality already makes her. Having the one black companion in the series being the main advocate for keeping oppressed minorities down strikes me as... problematic.

:lol:

 

Anyway, I like Vivienne.  She understands the faults in the system and knows what needs to be fixed.  

 

It also helps that she has her head intact unlike certain other Libertarians who claim to champion the "cause" of the mages while inadvertently killing or painting a target on many of their own in the process.

 

#VivienneforDivine3:41Dragon



#39
Cecilia

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Most of the world?

Vivienne fans fancy themselves the swimming against the flow minority, but in every single discussion I've ever seen you only spot like two people who despise her character.

 

Can we not turn this into a "oh Viv fans are so oppressed" vs "Viv is overglorified and has too many fans" type of debate please. I want to talk about her character with people who like and dislike her and debate over our differing views.

 

I'm open to having my mind changed about certain aspects of her character/her opinions as long as it's supported by quotes/facts from the game, and I'm trying my best to do research so I can present evidence to support my claims as well (and correcting myself if anything I previously stated turned out to be headcanon rather than canon). I think it's perfectly valid to criticize Vivienne on a number of points (she is terrible and I can't stress it enough to Blackwall for no real reason at all and it's not like Solas/Sera/Dorian where it's more ... give and take, it's just brutal to listen to) (Viv and Sera are actually sort of ... cute? I love when Viv hands Red Jenny a lead and Sera is just "ugh no helping you but sticking it ugh" and there's a kind of grudging respect there I think~ since Sera is like "Viv is a ******, but she knows it") and I genuinely believe that even people who dislike her can come around to the idea that she's not just a power-hungry ****** out for herself and just herself - that she has a genuine sense of social responsibility (even if it doesn't come first on her list of priorities) and does care about doing right by the world and other people.


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#40
The Baconer

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She's the ideal magistuh at heart. I like that.



#41
Qun00

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And I've been doing so in the whole discussion. It's strange that you chose the one sentence where I didn't to reply to.

#42
Xilizhra

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Can we not turn this into a "oh Viv fans are so oppressed" vs "Viv is overglorified and has too many fans" type of debate please. I want to talk about her character with people who like and dislike her and debate over our differing views.

 

I'm open to having my mind changed about certain aspects of her character/her opinions as long as it's supported by quotes/facts from the game, and I'm trying my best to do research so I can present evidence to support my claims as well (and correcting myself if anything I previously stated turned out to be headcanon rather than canon). I think it's perfectly valid to criticize Vivienne on a number of points (she is terrible and I can't stress it enough to Blackwall for no real reason at all and it's not like Solas/Sera/Dorian where it's more ... give and take, it's just brutal to listen to) (Viv and Sera are actually sort of ... cute? I love when Viv hands Red Jenny a lead and Sera is just "ugh no helping you but sticking it ugh" and there's a kind of grudging respect there I think~ since Sera is like "Viv is a ******, but she knows it") and I genuinely believe that even people who dislike her can come around to the idea that she's not just a power-hungry ****** out for herself and just herself - that she has a genuine sense of social responsibility (even if it doesn't come first on her list of priorities) and does care about doing right by the world and other people.

She's not just that, it's true.

 

I admit that we both had the same idea about putting mages in the Chantry.



#43
Cecilia

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She's not just that, it's true.

 

I admit that we both had the same idea about putting mages in the Chantry.

 

Hurray for commonality. 

 

Honestly I am the first person to agree that Viv is arrogant and doesn't know everything she thinks she does (she knows a lot but it's a fairly strong case of depth without breadth) and definitely puts herself first, but I don't think that makes her a bad person - I think it makes her realistic and flawed. She's a normal person with moral convictions who does the right thing (more/less) for selfish and altruistic reasons. I wouldn't love her if she weren't so fallible. If there is an expansion it would be nice to see if some of our companions further develop from their starting points (I know Viv is unbending wrt Cole I just know it!@ And it would be the cutest thing ever once she fully unbends - it'd be more Viv/IB which is my all time favorite dynamic)


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#44
AWTEW

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I really love Vivienne. Great voice acting, strong and beautiful character, great to have yet another strong female character, complex, also great to have a complex and interesting person of color as a main character, etc.

 

With Vivienne I think they tried to show a reasonable side to the Circle and pro-templar support. It still doesn't compute, for me personally, coming from a mage. Vivienne seems so intelligent (and I suspect she is); she would surely advocate for more of a college than a prison. But then again, the epilogue is sufficiently vague that for all we know it could be more college- than circle-like. And the templars are "leashed" to her hand. 

 

Ah well, like so many things with DAI, just not enough detail given.

 

Unless it's a map. :lol:


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#45
Cecilia

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And I've been doing so in the whole discussion. It's strange that you chose the one sentence where I didn't to reply to.

 

That was directed as much to your response as the post you quoted and really intended as more of a general "NO"~ sorry if that was confusing



#46
MrGDL87

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Which is immediately negated by what she actually does.

"In the end, they refuse Vivienne's invitation to rejoin the Circle of Magi and instead reform the College of Enchanters as a new order.

The reaction from the new Divine is instantaneous: a war to dissolve the College before it begins.
Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant."

There is reforming the Circles, and then there is that. Free choice? That's just unthinkable, my dear.

It's also note worthing that after discussing the current Circles with you at Haven, she adds "The Circles are quite permissive. Too permissive, in retrospect".

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

   
 



#47
CuriousArtemis

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Unless it's a map. :lol:

 

Oh yeah, credit where credit is due, dem maps got it all :lol: + handy-dandy blue pillar of shame (thus called because you're too lazy to just follow the path laid out for you on the map) xD


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#48
Jaison1986

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The deal with Vivienne is that she dismiss other people suffering simply because it's inconvenient. I'm more then sure that if an templar ever beaten her or had her raped, she would certanly not say the things she does in the game. I would understand if she choose to stay neutral on the mage templar war, but she goes out of her way to condemn mages for protesting against injustices done against them. When she says that free mages is bound to disaster? Lies. The truth is that if mages are freed from the Chantry, she loses her position, and that is more important to her then anything else. She would gleefully doom an entire group just to keep herself on her confortable position, and I can't even begin to tell how much this appalls me.

 

I recruited Vivienne in my first run of the game, but never again. For me, she is unworthy of joining the Inquisition. I take some solace into knowing that she is denied into the organization and can do nothing but to watch as they save the world without her.


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#49
Sports72Xtrm

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I think Vivienne's social responsibility is nothing but political theater used to get in the good graces of the templars and muggles. I'm not very confident her way of "improving" mage relations with the muggles will have long standing effects. It fosters the co-dependency relationship between mages and their templars. Vivienne is as Anders says accusingly, someone who "stands by and watches as mages are treated like criminals" and "bows to their templar jailors". She's a self serving tyrant, and would her actions improve relations and mage dignity? would it remove the "us or them" dichotomy fostered between mages and muggles once her reign ends and a power vacuum resumes? And muggles will take her reign with either resentment and lash out on the mages or use Vivieene as an example to reinforce the "divine right" of muggles to dominate mages for the safety of the world as vindication, just like a Hawke who sided with the templars in Kirkwall.

 

But for some, social change doesn't matter. For Vivieene, I suspect just wearing the crown is enough of an accomplishment for her. Which is why I don't think her character deserves my admiration.



#50
FiveThreeTen

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Well I like her. At least she is not boring.