270 réponses à ce sujet

[Akkos]

Why do you all forget the fact that people don't like her because of her dark skin colour and is trying to be the superior class......thing.

 

 

Enough of these topics really..

[Ieldra]

Interesting topic, OP. Here's my take on Vivienne:

 

I respect her ambition, I have no issues with her elitism but despise her condescending attitude, and I disagree with her political views because I deny the Chantry any legitimacy for regulating magic. I also dislike how her rhetoric about the mage rebellion echoes justifications of the "War on Terror". I agree with her that the timing of the rebellion was unfortunate, but this was an opportunity that had to be used. It was either now or never. 

 

So much for the character herself. On the meta-level, I have a problem with the limited ways our Inquisitors can repond to her assertions. I'm basically not allowed to have a reasonable debate with her beyond making an empty assertion that mages should be free, without having an opportunity to justify this stance with real arguments. And lastly, I dislike that lore consistency was damaged for inclusiveness with her ethnicity, because I value the former higher than the latter in fiction (as opposed to reality, where I value inclusiveness higher than cultural identity).

[Rekkampum]

I think she isn't complex enough to carry her persona, personally. :/ She does not get enough time to show off herself other than in witty banter, so I never quite believe she has that social prowess everybody touts based on the ingame evidence; especially when the dialogues my character has with her does not allow the character to make any rebuttals or comments to her remarks at any length, even if that would lead to more verbal thrashing. Also, I find her condescension -too obvious- for her implied status - I would have liked more subtlety.

 

Actually, you can disagree with her on several occasions.

[Ynqve]

I loath Vivienne's opinions but love her as a character. I had fun disagreeing with her.

[Rekkampum]

I find it weird and modestly disturbing that her being dark-skinned somehow invalidates the lore consistency re: her position in the Circle, despite being born in the Free Marches of all places. The lore clearly establishes that Circles of varying kinds exist all throughout Thedas, even as far as Tevinter. Nothing lore-breaking about her being in the position she's in. Not to mention she used a position normally used purely for entertainment to gain respect and demonstrate its relevance in the social structure.

In light of one of the comments quoted in the OP, I find the comment about her views re: Mages somehow being problematic a perfect example of the unrealistic expectations people of color are expected to fulfill just by virtue of them being "minorities" and in positions of influence. People expect us to act a certain way just because of our heritage and that in turn only turns us into monoliths catering to the imagination of those with privilege. We're individuals with varying backgrounds and political and social views.

 

That being said - because that comment REALLY irked me - she's ambitious and definitely polarizing. I can get the dislike or even hatred of her given how uncompromising and ambitious she is. She damn near had me have a doubletake after

Spoiler

she'd managed to take even the death of her lover and use it to gain more influence for the Inquisition, something I'm certain she'd already planned.

What I can't stand are the all too common claims that she's a token character, when she clearly has a personality and sense of agency all her own and -SHOCK- isn't defined by her heritage, which any person of color gets tired of seeing. But of course, in a fantasy world where people literally speak in French and use the traditional tropes of elves and dwarves and dragons, it's somehow impossible for characters like her to exist.

[Ieldra]

I find it weird and modestly disturbing that her being dark-skinned somehow invalidates the lore consistency re: her position in the Circle, despite being born in the Free Marches of all places. The lore clearly establishes that Circles of varying kinds exist all throughout Thedas, even as far as Tevinter. Nothing lore-breaking about her being in the position she's in. Not to mention she used a position normally used purely for entertainment to gain respect and demonstrate its relevance in the social structure.

In light of one of the comments quoted in the OP, I find the comment about her views re: Mages somehow being problematic a perfect example of the unrealistic expectations people of color are expected to fulfill just by virtue of them being "minorities" and in positions of influence. People expect us to act a certain way just because of our heritage and that in turn only turns us into monoliths catering to the imagination of those with privilege. We're individuals with varying backgrounds and political and social views.

 

That being said - because that comment REALLY irked me - she's ambitious and definitely polarizing. I can get the dislike or even hatred of her given how uncompromising and ambitious she is. She damn near had me have a doubletake after

Spoiler

she'd managed to take even the death of her lover and use it to gain more influence for the Inquisition, something I'm certain she'd already planned.

What I can't stand are the all too common claims that she's a token character, when she clearly has a personality and sense of agency all her own and -SHOCK- isn't defined by her heritage, which any person of color gets tired of seeing. But of course, in a fantasy world where people literally speak in French and use the traditional tropes of elves and dwarves and dragons, it's somehow impossible for characters like her to exist.

That's not what I mean with lore inconsistency. The problem is that her ethnicity doesn't have a home on Thedas, and nothing was added to the lore in DAI to give it one. We basically knew the prevailing appearance of people of all places of Thedas which had been presented in the games and stories, so where does she come from with hat skin color and those specific facial features? I'm not saying she shouldn't have been included. I'm saying that more lore background was needed to make her appear as more than a black character for the sake of including a black character. As it is, Vivienne is an interesting and controversial character whose presence I appreciate regardless of how she looks (in fact, I find her extremely attractive), but her ethnicity comes across as contrived for the sake of being inclusive, at the cost of lore consistency. 

[Rekkampum]

That's not what I mean with lore inconsistency. The problem is that her ethnicity doesn't have a home on Thedas, and nothing was added to the lore in DAI to give it one. We basically knew the prevailing appearance of people of all places of Thedas which had been presented in the games and stories, so where does she come from with hat skin color and those specific facial features? I'm not saying she shouldn't have been included. I'm saying that more lore background was needed to make her appear as more than a black character for the sake of including a black character. As it is, Vivienne is an interesting and controversial character whose presence I appreciate regardless of how she looks (in fact, I find her extremely attractive), but her ethnicity comes across as contrived for the sake of being inclusive, at the cost of lore consistency. 

 

I didnt know Rivain wasn't a part of Thedas, a place with people with skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony. It's quite possible that her family descends from that region and later moved elsewhere. So yeah, it still fits the lore.

 

EDIT: To prevent any further confusion: I'm being sarcastic in my first sentence.

[Akkos]

That's not what I mean with lore inconsistency. The problem is that her ethnicity doesn't have a home on Thedas, and nothing was added to the lore in DAI to give it one. We basically knew the prevailing appearance of people of all places of Thedas which had been presented in the games and stories, so where does she come from with hat skin color and those specific facial features? I'm not saying she shouldn't have been included. I'm saying that more lore background was needed to make her appear as more than a black character for the sake of including a black character. As it is, Vivienne is an interesting and controversial character whose presence I appreciate regardless of how she looks (in fact, I find her extremely attractive), but her ethnicity comes across as contrived for the sake of being inclusive, at the cost of lore consistency. 

 

How very imperious and haughty this game makes you feel, darling.

 

This is not a fight between roman empire, french century or british colony, my dear. And the Lord of the rings is better but there was only one mage doing the job on his own. The fantasy world you are dreaming of is way past your time . Characters like her are included because the lore demands it. I guess the "consistency" you talk of has nothing to do with her being of "rivani heritage" or whatever. Because seriously.... you need to write a letter to Mary Kirby.

[Rekkampum]

How very imperious and haughty this game makes you feel, darling.

 

This is not a fight between roman empire, french century or british colony, my dear. And the Lord of the rings is better but there was only one mage doing the job on his own. The fantasy world you are dreaming of is way past your time . Characters like her are included because the lore demands it. I guess the "consistency" you talk of has nothing to do with her being of "rivani heritage" or whatever. Because seriously.... you need to write a letter to Mary Kirby.

 

Like she's harping about lore inconsistency when I just cited information that should be common knowledge.

[Akkos]

I didnt know Rivain wasn't a part of Thedas, a place with people with skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony. It's quite possible that her family descends from that region and later moved elsewhere. So yeah, it still fits the lore.

 

Wow...Really?.......  Rivain is part of Thedas...

[Rekkampum]

Wow...Really?.......  Rivain is part of Thedas...

 

It's called sarcasm. I'll use an emoticon next time.

[Ieldra]

I didnt know Rivain wasn't a part of Thedas, a place with people with skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony. It's quite possible that her family descends from that region and later moved elsewhere. So yeah, it still fits the lore.

 

EDIT: To prevent any further confusion: I'm being sarcastic in my first sentence.

it's more about the facial features than the skin color as such - which is why I mentioned them in my post. Neither Isabela nor Duncan - who both come from Rivain - look the least bit like Vivienne. You could make Isabela and Duncan completely ebony-skinned and they still wouldn't look the least bit like Vivienne. 

 

Also, I find it interesting that everyone here immediately jumps on the PC bandwagon to criticize this minor point instead of responding to my other comments about Vivienne as a character. I probably shouldn't have brought this up, but I hate it if criticism of certain aspects is considered "bad" just because inclusiveness is desirable (which I most emphatically do not contest).

[Akkos]

it's more about the facial features than the skin color as such - which is why I mentioned them in my post. Neither Isabela nor Duncan - who both come from Rivain - look the least bit like Vivienne. You could make Isabela and Duncan completely ebony-skinned and they still wouldn't look the least bit like Vivienne. 

 

Also, I find it interesting that everyone here immediately jumps on the PC bandwagon to criticize this minor point instead of responding to my other comments about Vivienne as a character. I probably shouldn't have brought this up, but I hate it if criticism of certain aspects is considered "bad" just because inclusiveness is desirable (which I most emphatically do not contest).

 

Facial features like in bald hair, reduced wide nose?  enlarged lips?    Do we not have that already in DAO or DAII  with a lighter colour character?......

[Ieldra]

^We do? I honestly don't know who you're referring to.

[Incantrix]

it's more about the facial features than the skin color as such - which is why I mentioned them in my post. Neither Isabela nor Duncan - who both come from Rivain - look the least bit like Vivienne. You could make Isabela and Duncan completely ebony-skinned and they still wouldn't look the least bit like Vivienne. 

 

Also, I find it interesting that everyone here immediately jumps on the PC bandwagon to criticize this minor point instead of responding to my other comments about Vivienne as a character. I probably shouldn't have brought this up, but I hate it if criticism of certain aspects is considered "bad" just because inclusiveness is desirable (which I most emphatically do not contest).

You may not know this but...black p eople do, in fact, come in different body shapes,facial features and skin colours. Yes yes, I know it blows the mind but tis true. 

 

Visit Africa and find out for your self. Darling. 

[Akkos]

^We do? I honestly don't know who you're referring to.

 

 

This one i saw in  Denerim market area buying flowers. She is orlesian by the way... French in nature.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Obviously without the glasses, because it wasn't with Frostbite Engine.

[Rekkampum]

Facial features like in bald hair, reduced wide nose?  enlarged lips?    Do we not have that already in DAO or DAII  with a lighter colour character?......

 

Has she not seen Dwarves or even the Chasind?

[Ieldra]

Well...it's obviously not possible to discuss this without being met with condescension. OK, ok. I quit the field.

[Rekkampum]

This one i saw in  Denerim market area buying flowers. She is orlesian by the way... French in nature.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Obviously without the glasses, because it wasn't with Frostbite Engine.

 

 

 

Maker... Not her!

[FiveThreeTen]

it's more about the facial features than the skin color as such - which is why I mentioned them in my post. Neither Isabela nor Duncan - who both come from Rivain - look the least bit like Vivienne. You could make Isabela and Duncan completely ebony-skinned and they still wouldn't look the least bit like Vivienne. 

 

Also, I find it interesting that everyone here immediately jumps on the PC bandwagon to criticize this minor point instead of responding to my other comments about Vivienne as a character. I probably shouldn't have brought this up, but I hate it if criticism of certain aspects is considered "bad" just because inclusiveness is desirable (which I most emphatically do not contest).

I always interpreted Rivain as a fairly diverse land, a bit like Morocco. In Southern Morrocco you have Berebere, people with western african descent (though admittedly, it's a more recent occurence, people with more ancient African descent tend to look more mixed) and of course arabs (though a more accurate term is Maghrebi, but they are culturally arab). So I see no inconsistency in seeing Isabela and Vivienne coming from the same land, even though they do not have the same facial features.

 

(I'm not trying to jump at your throat or anything, just pointing that out)

[Jaison1986]

it's more about the facial features than the skin color as such - which is why I mentioned them in my post. Neither Isabela nor Duncan - who both come from Rivain - look the least bit like Vivienne. You could make Isabela and Duncan completely ebony-skinned and they still wouldn't look the least bit like Vivienne. 

 

Also, I find it interesting that everyone here immediately jumps on the PC bandwagon to criticize this minor point instead of responding to my other comments about Vivienne as a character. I probably shouldn't have brought this up, but I hate it if criticism of certain aspects is considered "bad" just because inclusiveness is desirable (which I most emphatically do not contest).

 

I think this is mostly because the previous engine was limited and didn't allow for an wider variety of facial features.

 

I actually enjoy the fact Vivienne is dark skinned. I'm sure the SJW must be bitting their nails because they hate her for her elitism but can't hate her because she is black. For once, inclusivity backfired on them. Of course, on an ingame perspective, I still dislike Vivienne, regardless of her appearance.

[Addai]

I love Vivienne as a character because she gives us a pro-circle point of view as a mage. We really haven't had a companion like this and she gives a logical, rational argument that supports the circle system (I suppose you could consider Wynne but she wasn't that vocal in the support of the circle). Another reason I love the character is that she is resolute in her beliefs and is not influenced by the inquisitor.

Wynne? I listened to Wynne go on and on about the Circle this, the Circle that. She tries to get the Warden mage to go back to the Circle even though she doesn't do so herself. She and Vivienne have that hypocrite thing down perfectly, Vivienne is just more acidic about it.

Vivienne is an Orlesian politician. That's about all that needs to be said. The only thing I'm perplexed about is that some people actually think she didn't kill Bastien and likely his wife as well. That's just... I guess she's just that good.

I don't understand the argument that Vivienne wants to keep the mages suppressed. Vivienne acknowledges that there are abuses of power with the current system but it is better to fix the current system rather than create new problems with a new system. Vivienne is also a character that supports both mages and Templars and see the worth of both sides (which is rare for a companion). I don't think Vivienne is totally against mage freedom but it should be a gradual change rather than instantaneous.

Gradual as in "never." She thinks she can put Humpty Dumpty together again and keep the templars under control by dint of her icy glare, but what happens in the next generation? If I had lived under that system, there's no way I'd go back under a templar yoke. So I don't think much of Vivienne using her hard-won influence to put other mages back in that system.

[Akkos]

I think this is mostly because the previous engine was limited and didn't allow for an wider variety of facial features.

 

I actually enjoy the fact Vivienne is dark skinned. I'm sure the SJW must be bitting their nails because they hate her for her elitism but can't hate her because she is black. For once, inclusivity backfired on them. Of course, on an ingame perspective, I still dislike Vivienne, regardless of her appearance.

 

Trust me, some folks don't like her because of her appearance and they are those who questions it based on lore.

[Akkos]

Wynne? I listened to Wynne go on and on about the Circle this, the Circle that. She tries to get the Warden mage to go back to the Circle even though she doesn't do so herself. She and Vivienne have that hypocrite thing down perfectly, Vivienne is just more acidic about it.
 

 

Not precisely, but she wanted the warden mage from the circle to be an example to the rest.  In the conversation with Aneirin that's what was briefly discussed, I can't remember it clearly but it was stated..     Mages having more "politcal power". Is that not what your warden mage did through out DAO,  apart from saving the world?

[Addai]

Not precisely, but she wanted the warden mage from the circle to be an example to the rest.  In the conversation with Aneirin that's what was briefly discussed, I can't remember it clearly but it was stated..     Mages having more "politcal power". Is that not what your warden mage did through out DAO,  apart from saving the world?

In the post-battle scene she urges you to go back to the Circle, then she can say "Irving wanted me to be First Enchanter but nopenopenope."

Oh, but her telling Aneirin who was almost killed by templars to go back to the Circle- that was pretty amazing, too.