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[Rekkampum]

Wynne? I listened to Wynne go on and on about the Circle this, the Circle that. She tries to get the Warden mage to go back to the Circle even though she doesn't do so herself. She and Vivienne have that hypocrite thing down perfectly, Vivienne is just more acidic about it.

Vivienne is an Orlesian politician. That's about all that needs to be said. The only thing I'm perplexed about is that some people actually think she didn't kill Bastien and likely his wife as well. That's just... I guess she's just that good.

Gradual as in "never." She thinks she can put Humpty Dumpty together again and keep the templars under control by dint of her icy glare, but what happens in the next generation? If I had lived under that system, there's no way I'd go back under a templar yoke. So I don't think much of Vivienne using her hard-won influence to put other mages back in that system.

 

You can find a codex entry about age regression potions nearby her after you take the quest, so it's highly plausible that she was attempting to save his life rather than the converse. Mistresses aren't looked down upon in Orlesian culture so I don't think she'd stand to have much reason to kill off his wife. That definitely didn't stop her from using his death to galvanize support for the Inquisition though. Her ambition is frightening.

 

Also note that Circles are each varied and different in approach. Not all of them are oppressive like the one we saw in DAO. So it's safe to say the system isn't broken entirely although it is in need of reform; something she acknowledges.

Spoiler

If you support her as Divine she actually does a great job at that as well

[Akkos]

In the post-battle scene she urges you to go back to the Circle, then she can say "Irving wanted me to be First Enchanter but nopenopenope."

Oh, but her telling Aneirin who was almost killed by templars to go back to the Circle- that was pretty amazing, too.

 

-Sighs- It always turn into a Mage vs Templar debate.   He ran away from the circle, so the templars followed him. And coming from an elven alienage where he was remorseful of humans. And also because Wynne was being strict with him at a young age.

 

Anyway, the circle did nothing to you as the player. Like you didn't see templar pursuing you, nor beating you.....My goodness Why such hatred... I still don't get it.

 

There were almost no mages in the circle, there were more apprentices, enchanters and mages studying. What about the countless mages you haved killed throughout the game?

[Addai]

You can find a codex entry about age regression potions nearby her after you take the quest, so it's highly plausible that she was attempting to save his life rather than the converse. Mistresses aren't looked down upon in Orlesian culture so I don't think she'd stand to have much reason to kill off his wife. That definitely didn't stop her from using his death to galvanize support for the Inquisition though. Her ambition is frightening.

I think she was waiting until the time was right. Her saying that his death secured her inheritance of his influence and that little simpering "I couldn't have done it without you, Inquisitor"... I suppose you can read that as an inside wink if you deliberately helped her in the Game. Otherwise she might as well have added "chump."
 

Also note that Circles are each varied and different in approach. Not all of them are oppressive like the one we saw in DAO. So it's safe to say the system isn't broken entirely although it is in need of reform; something she acknowledges.

Spoiler

If you support her as Divine she actually does a great job at that as well

Ferelden's Circle was said to be one of the most liberal. Meanwhile we have plenty of evidence what the Spire is like thanks to Cole. Let's say nothing about Kirkwall. The Ostwick Circle broke apart fairly peacefully but some of the apprentices murder their tutor on the way out. I don't think we want to divert the thread into a mage-templar bottomless pit, but I think of it this way- there are examples of people who've been abducted as children and held in captivity, who eventually return to freedom. Some of them adjust better than others, but telling mages to go back under templar control is like telling those people to go back and live in the house where they were held captive. Even if you had more freedom than you had before, who would do that? And how long before the jail doors slam shut again? The only way to make sure it never happens again is to render the templar order gutted and toothless. Vivienne thinks she can do that, but all she's doing is propping them up to take power again.

-Sighs- It always turn into a Mage vs Templar debate. He ran away from the circle, so the templars followed him. And coming from an elven alienage where he was remorseful of humans. And also because Wynne was being strict with him at a young age.

Anyway, the circle did nothing to you as the player. Like you didn't see templar pursuing you, nor beating you.....My goodness Why such hatred... I still don't get it.

Nothing except imprison you and put you under 24-7 surveillance?

As for why the hatred, I'll leave these bits from Cole/Cassandra banter: "There were beatings, worse than beatings. 'If you tell anyone, I'll say you used blood magic.'... Yes. Beatings, worse. 'Do you remember telling me no? You can't do that now. The Tranquil don't say no to anything.'" Cassandra tries to deflect by saying that they weren't all like that and things will be different now, too, but how can she say that? And who would ask mages to go back to that, even in altered forms?

[Rekkampum]

I think she was waiting until the time was right. Her saying that his death secured her inheritance of his influence and that little simpering "I couldn't have done it without you, Inquisitor"... I suppose you can read that as an inside wink if you deliberately helped her in the Game. Otherwise she might as well have added "chump."
 
Ferelden's Circle was said to be one of the most liberal. Meanwhile we have plenty of evidence what the Spire is like thanks to Cole. Let's say nothing about Kirkwall. The Ostwick Circle broke apart fairly peacefully but some of the apprentices murder their tutor on the way out. I don't think we want to divert the thread into a mage-templar bottomless pit, but I think of it this way- there are examples of people who've been abducted as children and held in captivity, who eventually return to freedom. Some of them adjust better than others, but telling mages to go back under templar control is like telling those people to go back and live in the house where they were held captive. Even if you had more freedom than you had before, who would do that? And how long before the jail doors slam shut again? The only way to make sure it never happens again is to render the templar order gutted and toothless. Vivienne thinks she can do that, but all she's doing is propping them up to take power again.

 

Well, to your first point, I think it's left to the imagination for that very reason. I saw it as a person who isn't going to let her personal feelings compromise her stake in the Game and always act to her benefit rather than detriment.

 

Vivienne actually does reform the Circles. It's not a matter of her thinking it's possible; she makes it happen if she becomes Divine. While I'm pro-mage I think it's only sensible that there need to be in some cases, checks and balances to ensure things don't get out of hand. That's how any successful system works, and she clearly wants to deal with the things that cause instability in them to improve Circle life. Practically everyone agrees that the system the Chantry has been using is in dire need of reform, so I find it highly unlikely that things would be business as usual in any outcome. Especially considering what happened with some defecting to Red Templars.

[Silcron]

My biggest problem with Viv is that the writers seemed biased against us to show her "political and conversation prowess." We're not allowed to have a discussion, or respond in a way that seems equal. The only instances in which this happens it's Solas replying to her, but the inquisitor? It's specially painfull if you get the scene in which she decides to move your stuff around. You can't do anything to get ahead of this fight. A Inquisitor that was aggresive could have just kicked her out of the Inquisition, get her investigated by Templars. But no, instead it seems that since her character has to be that good in conversations she just need to have conversations in which she is always dropping the metaphorical microphone, and each time she does that it seems she has to gloat by calling someone darling, and we know how much she uses that word.

I like her. I like her best whenever she's not sassing because it's just overdone. On the other side, conceptually I love Sera, and how it was realized. Personally I can't stand her but I have to applaud the work done there.

[daveliam]

Well, to your first point, I think it's left to the imagination for that very reason. I saw it as a person who isn't going to let her personal feelings compromise her stake in the Game and always act to her benefit rather than detriment.

 

That is absolutely how I saw it as well.  I have zero doubt that she was trying to save Bastien.  She loved Bastien and tells you all about how much she adored him and how they fell in love at first site across the ballroom floor at a soiree she attended as a young apprentice.  Do I think that part of the reason why she loved him was because of his position of power and how that secured her a comfortable lifestyle?  Yes.  I do.  But I don't think that this means that she didn't actually love him and care for him deeply.  I've only ever given her the white wyvern heart and I've never asked her to explain her reasoning.  To me, it's clear in that scene that she was trying to help him and was heartbroken when he died.  You see her carefully sculpted mask slip for a moment in that scene.  It makes zero sense to me that she killed him or his wife (Seriously?  There's literally zero evidence to support this theory.).

 

That being said, she's an incredibly practical and efficient woman.  Bastien is dead.  His influence can't help her anymore.  So, as a player of The Game, she immediately begins maneuvering to secure her position following his death.  That's the "this has worked out well" line.  Not Bastien's death; the scramble afterwards to make sure that she didn't lose prestige because of his death.  She was fortunate to woo over his sister and son, so her position remains secure.  I see it as taking advantage of a terrible situation so it doesn't become worse.  I don't think for one second that she killed Bastien; but I do think that she took advantage of his death to better her position.

[Ryriena]

So I am someone that finds her views abhorrent and fundamentally wrong on so many levels it's not even funny anymore. To the point, I love it when Sloas smacks her down a peg or two, since I don't get that chance

[Akkos]

So I am someone that finds her views abhorrent and fundamentally wrong on so many levels it's not even funny anymore. To the point, I love it when Sloas smacks her down a peg or two, since I don't get that chance

 

Unfortunately you are not the only one. So stay in line to tell us more.

[Addai]

My biggest problem with Viv is that the writers seemed biased against us to show her "political and conversation prowess." We're not allowed to have a discussion, or respond in a way that seems equal. The only instances in which this happens it's Solas replying to her, but the inquisitor?

Yes, conversations with Wynne were like that, too.  It is indeed annoying.
 

That is absolutely how I saw it as well. I have zero doubt that she was trying to save Bastien. She loved Bastien and tells you all about how much she adored him and how they fell in love at first site across the ballroom floor at a soiree she attended as a young apprentice.

Well okay, but... she's an Orlesian politician, like I said up above. That's what they do. I imagine they think they're feeling something for their marks, just like Celene thought she was in love with Briala, even after she murdered her parents to get ahead. "It's not personal, darling, it's just the Game," blah blah. Granted that the developers leave this ambiguous in Vivienne's case, no doubt on purpose, but come on.

[Silcron]

That is absolutely how I saw it as well.  I have zero doubt that she was trying to save Bastien.  She loved Bastien and tells you all about how much she adored him and how they fell in love at first site across the ballroom floor at a soiree she attended as a young apprentice.  Do I think that part of the reason why she loved him was because of his position of power and how that secured her a comfortable lifestyle?  Yes.  I do.  But I don't think that this means that she didn't actually love him and care for him deeply.  I've only ever given her the white wyvern heart and I've never asked her to explain her reasoning.  To me, it's clear in that scene that she was trying to help him and was heartbroken when he died.  You see her carefully sculpted mask slip for a moment in that scene.  It makes zero sense to me that she killed him or his wife (Seriously?  There's literally zero evidence to support this theory.).
 
That being said, she's an incredibly practical and efficient woman.  Bastien is dead.  His influence can't help her anymore.  So, as a player of The Game, she immediately begins maneuvering to secure her position following his death.  That's the "this has worked out well" line.  Not Bastien's death; the scramble afterwards to make sure that she didn't lose prestige because of his death.  She was fortunate to woo over his sister and son, so her position remains secure.  I see it as taking advantage of a terrible situation so it doesn't become worse.  I don't think for one second that she killed Bastien; but I do think that she took advantage of his death to better her position.

I also see it as kind of denial. There's all the stuff Cory is making, the problems with the Empire, and now this. I feel like instead of dealing with his death she inmediatly went over what she was used to doing the most: political maneuvering. I felt like after that she was pushing the whole Bastien stuff to the back of her mind and that once everything has calmed down, and she knows she's alone, she would probably crack down and cry. You know, as long as nobody knows or can use it against her, she can truly express herself, that is why we never truly see her in a moment of weakness, or dealing with his death. She won't allow us to witness it.

[Wulfram]

I feel like Vivienne's potential was rather wasted. She's presented as this powerful, cunning, politically connected figure. But as it is, she just seems to follow the protagonist around and maybe go "Oh, BTW, I'm the divine now" at the end game party.

At the least she should have been involved in the Orlesian court plot, and had more to contribute to the mage/Templar stuff than being snarky at Fiona.

[RobRam10]

Boring and too Orlesian for my taste.

[daveliam]

 
Well okay, but... she's an Orlesian politician, like I said up above. That's what they do. I imagine they think they're feeling something for their marks, just like Celene thought she was in love with Briala, even after she murdered her parents to get ahead. "It's not personal, darling, it's just the Game," blah blah. Granted that the developers leave this ambiguous in Vivienne's case, no doubt on purpose, but come on.

 

Who's to say that she didn't love Bastien.  She has little to gain by speaking privately to the Inquisitor about how much she loved him after his death, but she does anyway.  If it was all an act, she could have dropped it right after he died.  It just seems to me that Vivienne haters go out of their way to paint her as a monster.  I can understand that people disagree with her stance on the Mage-Templar wars.  I can understand that people find her callous and cruel in her comments.  I can understand that people find her condescending.  But then the Vivienne hate goes off rails and starts grasping at straws to paint her every action and word as reprehensible.  When has Bioware ever created such a one-dimensional character and why would they start with Vivienne? 

 

I feel like Vivienne's potential was rather wasted. She's presented as this powerful, cunning, politically connected figure. But as it is, she just seems to follow the protagonist around and maybe go "Oh, BTW, I'm the divine now" at the end game party.

At the least she should have been involved in the Orlesian court plot, and had more to contribute to the mage/Templar stuff than being snarky at Fiona.

 

I was incredibly disappointed that she didn't play a bigger role in the Winter Palace quest.  I think that the writers really dropped the ball there.  I kept checking back with her hoping to get some insights from her on The Game and she never really had anything meaningful to contribute.  It seemed really out of character for her, given that she'd hitched her wagon to the Inquisition by then and would be personally motivated to see you succeed in saving Celene. 

[Addai]

Who's to say that she didn't love Bastien.  She has little to gain by speaking privately to the Inquisitor about how much she loved him after his death, but she does anyway.  If it was all an act, she could have dropped it right after he died.  It just seems to me that Vivienne haters go out of their way to paint her as a monster.  I can understand that people disagree with her stance on the Mage-Templar wars.  I can understand that people find her callous and cruel in her comments.  I can understand that people find her condescending.  But then the Vivienne hate goes off rails and starts grasping at straws to paint her every action and word as reprehensible.  When has Bioware ever created such a one-dimensional character and why would they start with Vivienne?

They didn't start with her- it's how the Orlesian court operates. As I said, I can imagine they do feel something for those who are helping them get ahead. Let me shed a moist little tear that you're so useful to me, that kind of thing. If you imagine Vivienne has genuine regard for your Inquisitor, for instance, just imagine what happens the minute you cease to be a poltiical advantage.

[daveliam]

They didn't start with her- it's how the Orlesian court operates. As I said, I can imagine they do feel something for those who are helping them get ahead. Let me shed a moist little tear that you're so useful to me, that kind of thing. If you imagine Vivienne has genuine regard for your Inquisitor, for instance, just imagine what happens the minute you cease to be a poltiical advantage.

 

I think that at the end of my 'canon' playthrough, Vivienne genuinely sees my Inquisitor as her ally, friend, and confidant.  Even though he allied with the mages, accepted Cole in the Inquisition, and endorsed Cassandra for the Sunburst Throne, he supported Vivienne through the ordeal with Bastien and secured Celene's position on the Orlesian throne.  She has high approval with him and greets him warmly everytime they speak.

 

That being said, if the Inquisition were to take a position against Vivienne's best interests, I have no doubt that her view on my Inquisitor would sour.  But, isn't that true on all accounts?  Not just Vivienne.  Every single companion can have a sour relationship with the Inquisitor if s/he directly opposes their views and best interests. 

 

I guess my question for you is:  Have you ever given her the white wyvern heart without questioning her motivation during that quest?  To me, that seems to be a huge difference in how people read the character. 

[Jaison1986]

They didn't start with her- it's how the Orlesian court operates. As I said, I can imagine they do feel something for those who are helping them get ahead. Let me shed a moist little tear that you're so useful to me, that kind of thing. If you imagine Vivienne has genuine regard for your Inquisitor, for instance, just imagine what happens the minute you cease to be a poltiical advantage.

 

She uses the Inquisitor from the very start. There is an banter with her and Cole that reveals that is was actually her that turned the Marquis against you during her party. She sent him an letter that gave him an poor opinion of the Inquisition, she wanted him to turn against you so he could either be killed or humiliated. All because he insulted her for being Bastien mistress. Rather then confronting him she involves you in her personal matter.

 

She is the kind of person that can't be trusted for an single second. She is at the same level as people such as Celene, Briala and Gaspard. No true loyalty. Only self advancement.

[Ryriena]

Unfortunately you are not the only one. So stay in line to tell us more.

 

Your going to wish that you had not gave a green light to post my views lol

[Ryriena]

She is basically a black character that advocate the right to opress another group of people so she can keep her own political power kind of like some of our own so called black congressmen who advocate laws that aren't in favor of the minority's or other groups. And the fact my character has to become polticaly stupid around her is a huge let down for me around her character. In fact I had brought her with Cole to understand her better but began to dislike her even more after that play though, since it revels she knew about the abuses committed by the Templars but ignored them and did little to stop it while she was in control of the her circle.

[LOLandStuff]

I just wanted the Circle Throne.

[Ryriena]

Lol

[Digger1967]

 What about the countless mages you haved killed throughout the game?

 

Hey now, those guys were all evil.  I could tell because when I got close enough to them a hit point bar would appear above their heads.  Wow.. if only real life were that straightforward.

 

Lol

[Ryriena]

Those Mages were defending their rights not to be abused by the system she wants back in to place. Anyone that calls Mages mass murders for wanting the same rights as everyone else are stupid and missing the points about the Mages viewpoints of the conflict.

[Akkos]

Those Mages were defending their rights not to be abused by the system she wants back in to place. Anyone that calls Mages mass murders for wanting the same rights as everyone else are stupid and missing the points about the Mages viewpoints of the conflict.

 

Magic is very dangerous. LOL.  Mages can be consumed by unwanted emotions and go killing spree on everyone. Demons will interfere and for another mage to stop that, they have to leave their earthly body  and enter the fade to destroy the demon, risking him/herself plus those defending the body to get possessed themselves.

 

Obviously we want mages to be farmers, merchants, whatever the case....   They need to be trained in a protected place first. If they are not worthy to control their magic.. I prefered them locked or turn into tranquil.  Period. Take it or not, Magic is beautiful to see as a player, but while roleplaying it's different from what you might think.

[Ryriena]

Blah blah Mages are dangerous like that has not been said to death from pro circle Mages and the chantry, which I find it repulsive that they demonize a group of people over something that they might do. Although, that good old saying innocent until proven guilty in the court of law is also a little hypocritical, since people judge people all the time without proof that they had done the crime. I said it before and I will say it again the Mages don't need the circle to learn magic look at the Dalish or Morgain for that matter to get what I mean on that.

[Xilizhra]

Is there any way to prevent Vivienne gaining more influence through Bastien's death?

 

I'm tempted to avoid recruiting her altogether, to be honest, but it didn't seem like it was in-character.