270 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryriena]

Is there any way to prevent Vivienne gaining more influence through Bastien's death?

 

I'm tempted to avoid recruiting her altogether, to be honest, but it didn't seem like it was in-character.

 

No you have to avoid recruiting her or not do her quest.

[Riot Inducer]

I mostly don't like Vivienne due to the fact that she's a politician first and a mage second. I.e. she always puts her own standing, power and advancement over the interest of those she represents. She also has a remarkably narrow world view even for a circle mage, she refuses to acknowledge less than malevolent spirits, which is rather hypocritical given that she's a knight enchanter and thus carries a spirit around on her belt.

 

Also she can be pointlessly rude for no reason than her own spite, seriously what's her beef with Blackwall before Adamant? She just shits on him for saying hello.

 

I've played a fair number of BioWare games and the companions are always a driving force but I've never met one that I can't find redeeming qualities in like Viv. 

[daveliam]

Is there any way to prevent Vivienne gaining more influence through Bastien's death?

 

I'm tempted to avoid recruiting her altogether, to be honest, but it didn't seem like it was in-character.

 

I don't think so, but you can effectively cut off her power base by doing:

• Mage allies
• Gaspard in sole power in Orlais
• Hardened Leliana as Divine
• Regular wyvern heart in her personal quest

In this case, the rebel mages are a power in their own right.  Leliana reforms the Chantry and is a swift, merciless opponent who isn't trifled with.  Without Celene or Bastien in Orlais, Vivienne loses both of her patrons and, likely, her spot in the Orlesian Court.  And, for added insult, you humiliate her as you trick her into creating a useless potion and watching her beloved die in front of her.

 

Also she can be pointlessly rude for no reason than her own spite, seriously what's her beef with Blackwall before Adamant? She just shits on him for saying hello.

 

Look, anyone who reads the feedback forum probably knows I'm a huge fan of the "chivalrous knight in shining armor type" that Blackwall is trying to be.  So, for me, I like it that he worries about her in battle.  But, to be fair, it's a little patronizing that their first dialogue together is him saying, "Are you okay?  I saw an enemy hit you in that battle.  If only I were faster and didn't fail you......"  She's an incredibly powerful mage and knight enchanter (the tankiest of the mages).  I can understand why she would eyeroll at that.  And that's what sets their relationship off on the wrong foot.  And, frankly, she's not even that bitchy in her comeback; it's more snarky than anything else.  "Oh, aren't you precious?"  And then, when he doesn't get the hint right away, he starts being super snarky back at her.  He gives as good as he gets in those conversations.  I don't feel bad for him.  Cole?  I feel bad for how she treats him.  But Blackwall?  Nah.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think so, but you can effectively cut off her power base by doing:

• Mage allies
• Gaspard in sole power in Orlais
• Hardened Leliana as Divine
• Regular wyvern heart in her personal quest

In this case, the rebel mages are a power in their own right.  Leliana reforms the Chantry and is a swift, merciless opponent who isn't trifled with.  Without Celene or Bastien in Orlais, Vivienne loses both of her patrons and, likely, her spot in the Orlesian Court.  And, for added insult, you humiliate her as you trick her into creating a useless potion and watching her beloved die in front of her.

Hmmm.

 

Having Gaspard be Briala's puppet emperor is, I admit, tempting, even though I reconciled her with Celene in my main playthrough. However, hardening Leliana both screws over Leliana herself and my Warden, and switching wyvern hearts seems overly evil, so I probably won't be doing that.

[Fiery Phoenix]

There are lots of white women who are sassy,  independent "and need no man".

lies

 

there's no such thing u have to believe me

[daveliam]

Hmmm.

 

Having Gaspard be Briala's puppet emperor is, I admit, tempting, even though I reconciled her with Celene in my main playthrough. However, hardening Leliana both screws over Leliana herself and my Warden, and switching wyvern hearts seems overly evil, so I probably won't be doing that.

 

Yeah, you would have to go out of your way to do all of those things, I think.  But I just wanted to point out to people that there is a possible way to make sure that Vivienne doesn't land on her feet.  That being said, I think it makes sense that she'd be one of the tougher companions to screw  over, given that she eats, breathes, and sleeps political maneuvering. 

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, you would have to go out of your way to do all of those things, I think.  But I just wanted to point out to people that there is a possible way to make sure that Vivienne doesn't land on her feet.  That being said, I think it makes sense that she'd be one of the tougher companions to screw  over, given that she eats, breathes, and sleeps political maneuvering. 

To be honest, I don't even want to screw Vivienne over. I just want to be able to bloody respond properly in an argument.

[Cecilia]

I didnt know Rivain wasn't a part of Thedas, a place with people with skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony. It's quite possible that her family descends from that region and later moved elsewhere. So yeah, it still fits the lore.

 

EDIT: To prevent any further confusion: I'm being sarcastic in my first sentence.

 

That's actually right - she is explicitly stated to be Rivaini, which would make it canonical that Rivain has a fairly diverse range of ethnic groups. The game also goes out of its way to point out the prejudice she faces in the Orlesian court for her skin color and there's a conversation between Viv and Cass about why Viv refuses to adopt an Orlesian accent. 

[Akkos]

Yeah, you would have to go out of your way to do all of those things, I think.  But I just wanted to point out to people that there is a possible way to make sure that Vivienne doesn't land on her feet.  That being said, I think it makes sense that she'd be one of the tougher companions to screw  over, given that she eats, breathes, and sleeps political maneuvering. 

 

Still best not to do her quest. Because even if you gave her the wrong wyvern heart, she still get connections to the Council of Heralds which is what she was aiming for at the first place.

 

 

 

To be honest, I don't even want to screw Vivienne over. I just want to be able to bloody respond properly in an argument.

 

 

Normally, you as the "player" knows more about the situation than her. But while roleplaying in game you can't because you are a nobody who becomes somebody and have no say in the situation. Can't explain that better.

 

Hence we aren't given the option in-game to respond properly to neither her arguments, or anything in general... Not even about Tevinter, Qun, Slaves, the Fade, The Maker.... you know nothing about those things to get a concrete response to the matter.

 

 

Edit: Though you have the power to influence the situation...

[Cecilia]

I don't think so, but you can effectively cut off her power base by doing:

• Mage allies
• Gaspard in sole power in Orlais
• Hardened Leliana as Divine
• Regular wyvern heart in her personal quest

In this case, the rebel mages are a power in their own right.  Leliana reforms the Chantry and is a swift, merciless opponent who isn't trifled with.  Without Celene or Bastien in Orlais, Vivienne loses both of her patrons and, likely, her spot in the Orlesian Court.  And, for added insult, you humiliate her as you trick her into creating a useless potion and watching her beloved die in front of her.

 

 

Look, anyone who reads the feedback forum probably knows I'm a huge fan of the "chivalrous knight in shining armor type" that Blackwall is trying to be.  So, for me, I like it that he worries about her in battle.  But, to be fair, it's a little patronizing that their first dialogue together is him saying, "Are you okay?  I saw an enemy hit you in that battle.  If only I were faster and didn't fail you......"  She's an incredibly powerful mage and knight enchanter (the tankiest of the mages).  I can understand why she would eyeroll at that.  And that's what sets their relationship off on the wrong foot.  And, frankly, she's not even that bitchy in her comeback; it's more snarky than anything else.  "Oh, aren't you precious?"  And then, when he doesn't get the hint right away, he starts being super snarky back at her.  He gives as good as he gets in those conversations.  I don't feel bad for him.  Cole?  I feel bad for how she treats him.  But Blackwall?  Nah.

 

Cole I honestly understand (and there are subtle dialogue hints that she starts to unbend towards him) because she's a Circle trained mage - she honest to goodness thinks Cole is a demon, so I'm pretty sure Viv is terrified of him, but refuses to show it the way Sera does. 

 

Poor Cole though ... 

[Riot Inducer]

To be honest, I don't even want to screw Vivienne over. I just want to be able to bloody respond properly in an argument.

Somewhat related but I find talking with her annoying for this reason, the responses are so limited, even when you're not arguing with her. Maybe it's just the conversation options limiting my RP but I was very annoyed at her asking my dwarf her opinion on what should happen to the mages and not being able to give a neutral response. I mean come on, I'm a freakin' carta dwarf, I don't care what happens to the mages as long as someone still buys lyrium. 

[Cecilia]

Still best not to do her quest. Because even if you gave her the wrong wyvern heart, she still get connections to the Council of Heralds which is what she was aiming for at the first place.

 

No those were already there to begin with - the woman and man she brings were Bastien's sister and son whom Viv is implied to already have a warm relationship with. In fact, it's pretty much stated that Viv is bffs with his whole family including his wife (they used to throw salons together - I think the relationship is modeled after Madame de Pompadour and the Queen)

 

Also did I see someone claiming Viv poisons everyone she cares about? I'm just going to channel Cullen at this point. No. This is ridiculous. 

[daveliam]

Cole I honestly understand (and there are subtle dialogue hints that she starts to unbend towards him) because she's a Circle trained mage - she honest to goodness thinks Cole is a demon, so I'm pretty sure Viv is terrified of him, but refuses to show it the way Sera does. 

 

Poor Cole though ... 

 

Yeah, I have no defense for the way that she treats him.  I understand that she doesn't trust him and that she's trying to protect herself and the Inquisition, but she's cruel and mean and a bully to him and I can't get behind that.  It's really the one thing that I just can't stand about her and the one thing that none of my characters will ever support her on. 

 

Somewhat related but I find talking with her annoying for this reason, the responses are so limited, even when you're not arguing with her. Maybe it's just the conversation options limiting my RP but I was very annoyed at her asking my dwarf her opinion on what should happen to the mages and not being able to give a neutral response. I mean come on, I'm a freakin' carta dwarf, I don't care what happens to the mages as long as someone still buys lyrium. 

 

But is that unique to her?  I don't remember most of the other characters allowing you to be neutral either.  Can you tell Cassandra that  you don't care what happens to the Chantry or Seekers?  Can you tell Varric that you don't care what happens to the Red Templar lyrium leak?  Can you tell Bull that you don't care either way about the Qunari alliance?  The game forces you to take a stance on most of the central stories, no? 

 

No those were already there to begin with - the woman and man she brings were Bastien's sister and son whom Viv is implied to already have a warm relationship with. In fact, it's pretty much stated that Viv is bffs with his whole family including his wife (they used to throw salons together - I think the relationship is modeled after Madame de Pompadour and the Queen)

 

I have two non-fiction books on Royal Mistresses (and other historical royal favourites).  I'm kind of fascinated by these women (and men, in some cases).  Perhaps that's why I'm so interested in Vivienne.  To be a woman from a persecuted group who faces prejudice because of her skin color and to work her way through political machinations to be one of the most powerful women in Orlais?  That's fascinating to me.  Even if I cringe at some of the things that she says, I just find her so interesting and unique of a character.  It's honestly why, even if I don't agree with some of her positions, she's my favorite companion in the game. Even more so than Dorian, who's my favorite romance to date in the series. 

[Riot Inducer]

But is that unique to her?  I don't remember most of the other characters allowing you to be neutral either.  Can you tell Cassandra that  you don't care what happens to the Chantry or Seekers?  Can you tell Varric that you don't care what happens to the Red Templar lyrium leak?  Can you tell Bull that you don't care either way about the Qunari alliance?  The game forces you to take a stance on most of the central stories, no? 

In many of those cases yes. You can leave the fate of the seekers up to Cassandra and can likewise remain undeclared on who to support as divine. Not every situation applies of course, for example red lyrium spreading isn't exactly a political issue that you can take a stance on.

[In Exile]

Vivienne is not absolutely callous; she's not a psychopath. She's just cold, uncaring, and fairly heartless most of the time, but can unbend a bit for people who happen to get close to her. And I say this by her actions and what she approves of, as well as her manner. Also, she was lying outright when she said that her "loyalist" mages had to fight the rebellion; we see plenty of mages who just left it without attacking the rebels. Either she was choosing to side with the templars in their war, or she was lying about fighting the rebellion for some reason.

And it's true that she fit into Orlais... but it's also true that she chose to come to Orlais, as her original Circle was in the Free Marches. She chose to seek power in the company of wicked eyes and wicked hearts, and she willingly joined them. I won't give her a pass for doing what's necessary in the Game when it was what she actively wanted and sought out.

I'm going to point out that she had no loyalist mages. That's just another one of her lies and self-styled titles. The mage at Redcliffe who felt forced into rebelling had no idea her little group even existed.

[In Exile]

Wynne? I listened to Wynne go on and on about the Circle this, the Circle that. She tries to get the Warden mage to go back to the Circle even though she doesn't do so herself. She and Vivienne have that hypocrite thing down perfectly, Vivienne is just more acidic about it.

Vivienne is an Orlesian politician. That's about all that needs to be said. The only thing I'm perplexed about is that some people actually think she didn't kill Bastien and likely his wife as well. That's just... I guess she's just that good.

Gradual as in "never." She thinks she can put Humpty Dumpty together again and keep the templars under control by dint of her icy glare, but what happens in the next generation? If I had lived under that system, there's no way I'd go back under a templar yoke. So I don't think much of Vivienne using her hard-won influence to put other mages back in that system.

People confuse Vivienne's rhetoric for an actual interesting in a functional solution to the Circle dillema. She doesn't care. She needs the Circles because her entire base of power depends on it. She's an Enchanter with standing outside of the Circles via Bastien. She takes great pains to pretend the old order still exists and that she's not an apostate after the rebellion to not lose her position.

The point isn't to make the Circles work. Cassandra wants that part. It's to make Vivienne get ahead.

[AresKeith]

I was incredibly disappointed that she didn't play a bigger role in the Winter Palace quest.  I think that the writers really dropped the ball there.  I kept checking back with her hoping to get some insights from her on The Game and she never really had anything meaningful to contribute.  It seemed really out of character for her, given that she'd hitched her wagon to the Inquisition by then and would be personally motivated to see you succeed in saving Celene. 

 

That was a shame, her and possible Sera could've played a bigger part there. Along with the whole arc being longer than one mission

 

She is basically a black character that advocate the right to opress another group of people so she can keep her own political power kind of like some of our own so called black congressmen who advocate laws that aren't in favor of the minority's or other groups. And the fact my character has to become polticaly stupid around her is a huge let down for me around her character. In fact I had brought her with Cole to understand her better but began to dislike her even more after that play though, since it revels she knew about the abuses committed by the Templars but ignored them and did little to stop it while she was in control of the her circle.

 

Can we please not use that argument 

[Addai]

I think that at the end of my 'canon' playthrough, Vivienne genuinely sees my Inquisitor as her ally, friend, and confidant.  Even though he allied with the mages, accepted Cole in the Inquisition, and endorsed Cassandra for the Sunburst Throne, he supported Vivienne through the ordeal with Bastien and secured Celene's position on the Orlesian throne.  She has high approval with him and greets him warmly everytime they speak.
 
That being said, if the Inquisition were to take a position against Vivienne's best interests, I have no doubt that her view on my Inquisitor would sour.  But, isn't that true on all accounts?  Not just Vivienne.  Every single companion can have a sour relationship with the Inquisitor if s/he directly opposes their views and best interests.

I didn't say go against her- I said cease to be an advantage. That isn't the same thing, and it's not like every companion. Take Varric, who is also political. He doesn't make connections solely for his own gain.
 

I guess my question for you is:  Have you ever given her the white wyvern heart without questioning her motivation during that quest?  To me, that seems to be a huge difference in how people read the character.

No, and I recognize that my perspective is colored by the fact that I mostly play and identify with apostate mages. My canon Warden was pro-Circle, but in DAI the PC controls are so tedious that I can't play a character I don't enjoy. It was after I realized I needed to speed run my Trevelyan mage or give up her game entirely that I watched Vivienne's personal quest on YouTube.

It's just so... obvious, to me. In the context of the Game. I suppose that Vivienne might be the one person in Orlais who retains a shred of humanity in the midst of succeeding in the Game, and I guess that if that's the story you want to tell, it's as good as any, as the Fade spirit says. Maybe Bastien really did come down with a mysterious disease that can't be cured magically. Maybe he did croak just after taking Vivienne's "potion" made from an animal whose tissues can produce powerful poisons, thereby securing her inheritance of his influence in the court. It could all be innocent, even in Orlais.

This is my skeptical face.
 

She uses the Inquisitor from the very start. There is an banter with her and Cole that reveals that is was actually her that turned the Marquis against you during her party. She sent him an letter that gave him an poor opinion of the Inquisition, she wanted him to turn against you so he could either be killed or humiliated. All because he insulted her for being Bastien mistress. Rather then confronting him she involves you in her personal matter.
 
She is the kind of person that can't be trusted for an single second. She is at the same level as people such as Celene, Briala and Gaspard. No true loyalty. Only self advancement.

You can't say that you don't know what she is, right from the introduction, so I guess the joke is on me for recruiting her at all. I might amend that in my canon game. I really don't like NPCs that make the PC into a dolt just by being in the same room with them.
 

The point isn't to make the Circles work. Cassandra wants that part. It's to make Vivienne get ahead.

Agreed. Even if she doesn't become Divine, controlling the mages and templars gives her leverage in a chaotic time. Free mages don't make good minions.

[Jaison1986]

 You can't say that you don't know what she is, right from the introduction, so I guess the joke is on me for recruiting her at all. I might amend that in my canon game. I really don't like NPCs that make the PC into a dolt just by being in the same room with them.
 
Agreed. Even if she doesn't become Divine, controlling the mages and templars gives her leverage in a chaotic time. Free mages don't make good minions.

 

I know what you mean. I might even contemplate into conscripting the mages in my next run of the game were Vivienne is not recruited. It's way easier to make Leliana divine if Vivienne is not around, and personally, I like the bright hand ending better then the college of enchanters one.

[daveliam]

I didn't say go against her- I said cease to be an advantage. That isn't the same thing, and it's not like every companion. Take Varric, who is also political. He doesn't make connections solely for his own gain.

 

Right......but you can cease to be a political advantage to her right from the jump.  You can do all of the things that I listed earlier in this thread that will slowly cut off all of her power bases and leave her completely out of The Game.  You can humiliate her in her most emotionally vulnerable state.  And she never leaves the Inquisition.  She stays, even though many other characters can be driven off if you don't support their views.  Blackwall, Dorian, Solas, Sera, Cole, and Varric can all leave (I believe), yet Vivienne won't.  The worst that she does is mock you while she redecorates.  I guess you will interpret this as "She's only staying to better her position", but my skeptical face comes out if you want me to expect that a woman like you describe Vivienne as will stay with an organization that single-handedly ruins her standing.  I just can't see it.  Unless, she's actually interested in seeing the Inquisition succeed because it's the 'right thing to do' (and, of course, she's hoping that she comes out on top as well).

 

No, and I recognize that my perspective is colored by the fact that I mostly play and identify with apostate mages. My canon Warden was pro-Circle, but in DAI the PC controls are so tedious that I can't play a character I don't enjoy. It was after I realized I needed to speed run my Trevelyan mage or give up her game entirely that I watched Vivienne's personal quest on YouTube.

It's just so... obvious, to me. In the context of the Game. I suppose that Vivienne might be the one person in Orlais who retains a shred of humanity in the midst of succeeding in the Game, and I guess that if that's the story you want to tell, it's as good as any, as the Fade spirit says. Maybe Bastien really did come down with a mysterious disease that can't be cured magically. Maybe he did croak just after taking Vivienne's "potion" made from an animal whose tissues can produce powerful poisons, thereby securing her inheritance of his influence in the court. It could all be innocent, even in Orlais.

This is my skeptical face.

 

But that's just the point.  It's not obvious either way.  That's the beauty of Mary's writing.  Vivienne is deliberately vague and difficult to read.  You can interpret the situation in the way that you do, but it's far from 'obvious' because my interpretation is a valid one.  Personally, I think people try way to hard to paint her a one-dimensional villain type.  These are the same people who would place her alignment as 'evil'.  I think that's far too simple of an interpretation.  And, yes, the fact that the most vocal of her opponents are strong 'pro-mage' supporters should tell you something.  Your views are colored by your stance on the Mage-Templar conflict.  I, personally, almost never play as a mage and have no real horse in that race.  I tend to support mages because it feels like the 'right thing' to do, but I don't feel so strongly about it.  And, perhaps, that's why I don't see her as the evil witch that pro-mage players tend to paint her as.

[Sus3an]

I love Vivienne. She's strong, talented, principled, witty, and her 'lawful' platform is completely supported by her background and high social skills ('you can bend any rule you like, darling, if you know where to apply a little gentle pressure').  I love her reactions, her unfailing unflappability, her class, her style, and her refusal to stoop.  She is a class act all the way.  Her corresponding faults - social climbing, ambition, snobbery, and a certain amount of Machiavellianism -  are exactly the faults you get with a character like this. I also love her stunning Nubian looks, which I think complement the highly French-inspired Orlesian society we find her in.

What I don't really get is interpreting Vivienne's attitudes and opinons in context of the color of her skin. It makes no sense to say that she is in favor of 'oppressing' mages, i.e., herself.   (tangent below, skip if you like)

[It's pretty obvious from Dragon Age 2 what happens when Circles are poorly handled - attempts to compensate for poor Templar training with oppressive over-management dissolved the trust and integrity of the mage-templar relationship, and resulted in frequent bolting of under-trained mages and Anders' ill-concieved freedom movement.

 

Like all the best social problems posed in fiction (and, of course, real problems) there is no solution that's going to work for every situation. But it's also pretty obvious that complete control of mages is not possible without measures violating a civilized society, that some mage regulation is wise, that as much education and empowerment as possible is desireable, and that refusal to regulate, educate or engage with mages at all is neither desireable nor wise. That's why coming up with some kind of a solution for an entire society  is such an awesome thing to offer a player character, and what makes DA:I one of the greatest games ever.]

 

Anyway, in my book Vivienne is a brilliant character, a grace note in the game, and while she is certainly more than the sum of her parts, it is her personality, not her magical power or her looks and certainly not her color that define her (Is Cassandra defined by her cheeckbones and not her faith? Varric by his chesthair and not his wit...?)   As to making the classiest, most lawful mage black, as a sheer creative decision I love it. The black woman as 'warrior-woman' has totally been done, as has the 'wild woman' - I love seeing 'the queen' archetype here, and I love Vivienne - sensible, unflappable, ambitious Vivienne. I'm just glad she's on my side.

 

Plus - has anyone put her in a partty with Sera? Bwahahaha!!

[Cecilia]

Right......but you can cease to be a political advantage to her right from the jump.  You can do all of the things that I listed earlier in this thread that will slowly cut off all of her power bases and leave her completely out of The Game.  You can humiliate her in her most emotionally vulnerable state.  And she never leaves the Inquisition.  She stays, even though many other characters can be driven off if you don't support their views.  Blackwall, Dorian, Solas, Sera, Cole, and Varric can all leave (I believe), yet Vivienne won't.  The worst that she does is mock you while she redecorates.  I guess you will interpret this as "She's only staying to better her position", but my skeptical face comes out if you want me to expect that a woman like you describe Vivienne as will stay with an organization that single-handedly ruins her standing.  I just can't see it.  Unless, she's actually interested in seeing the Inquisition succeed because it's the 'right thing to do' (and, of course, she's hoping that she comes out on top as well).

 

 

But that's just the point.  It's not obvious either way.  That's the beauty of Mary's writing.  Vivienne is deliberately vague and difficult to read.  You can interpret the situation in the way that you do, but it's far from 'obvious' because my interpretation is a valid one.  Personally, I think people try way to hard to paint her a one-dimensional villain type.  These are the same people who would place her alignment as 'evil'.  I think that's far too simple of an interpretation.  And, yes, the fact that the most vocal of her opponents are strong 'pro-mage' supporters should tell you something.  Your views are colored by your stance on the Mage-Templar conflict.  I, personally, almost never play as a mage and have no real horse in that race.  I tend to support mages because it feels like the 'right thing' to do, but I don't feel so strongly about it.  And, perhaps, that's why I don't see her as the evil witch that pro-mage players tend to paint her as.

 

Basically all of this - I think people who interpret Viv as absolutely selfish and out for herself let their own personal biases heavily distort their character interpretations (and the point of this thread is - that's fine, but admit it and don't try to make it seem like your conclusion is the obvious objective one). A lot of what Viv says to the Inquizzy/in party banter entails saying that "no, I don't really like it here, of course I miss my servants and marble bathtubs," but "what you're doing is necessary and I believe if one wants to do something right, one must do it oneself." 

 

I find Viv and Sera interesting in the sense that they are complementary and apposite characters - Sera is chaotic neutral/good and Viv is lawful neutral/good - they both care about what the Inquisition does and believe it is important, but they view all of the Inquisition's actions and the world at large through two vastly disparate lenses (hence I think grudging respect and mutual needling). I won't argue that the "good" alignment part of Viv's character is the dominating half of the two - lawful is most decidedly her stronger trait. This may also explain Bull's relationship with Viv since the Qun is all about bringing order out of chaos etc etc - for all of his leadership skills, Bull is a character that desires guidance and rules/limitations and Viv is the DA:I companion embodiment of that trait. Even the introduction of Viv and Sera, I believe, is done in such a way that it pushes us to interpret the two characters in parallel with each other (for Sera everything is a game, for Viv everything is The Game)

 

I don't disagree that Viv views everything within the context of The Game - but playing a game/the game doesn't necessarily imply playing absolutely selfishly. Game players (venturing back into game theory nerd-dom here) all have their own specific goals - they play the game in order to achieve these goals - and these goals are not limited by self-interest, meaning that altruism can be and is a part of playing a game. Viv vocally deplores the death you see in the Hinterlands and you see that anger over the humanitarian cost in her conversation with Cole after you discover he is the Ghost of the Spire (though she's not actually accusing him there, but trying to get him to show his "true self"). I don't think she cares for every Farmer Joe who dies during the war, but Viv's moral philosophy is probably more akin to a very practical form of utilitarianism - she believes that people should make decisions that consider the greater picture (which also explains why she doesn't leave the Inquisition even if she hates you) and always consider the long term consequences of their actions. It's not about every person who dies, but over the meaninglessness of the death. 

[Addai]

I think my views on Vivienne are far more likely colored by my feelings about Orlesians and their pathetic, dehumanizing Game than my views on the mage-templar conflict. The fact that she's using her influence to control mages is just icing on the frilly cakes.

[Barquiel]

I think my views on Vivienne are far more likely colored by my feelings about Orlesians and their pathetic, dehumanizing Game than my views on the mage-templar conflict. The fact that she's using her influence to control mages is just icing on the frilly cakes.

My main problem with Vivienne is that she comes across as incredibly petty and childish for someone who is supposed to be a master of the "game". The few insights into orlesian politics and the circle system she does offer are rather flippant (or downright wrong). And if you don’t agree with her views she throws a fit by...moving furniture.

[Draining Dragon]

I like Vivienne. Her attitude reminds me of Viconia's.