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Vivienne: Complex Characters are so Thrilling, My Dear


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#151
Addai

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Then you need to look at her ends over her means. She is willing to do what it takes to get the job done but ask yourself what is the  "job". Does she want to be divine for herself or to improve the systems she's in? She never seems as a power for powers sake type of person.

I'm not sure what sort of systems improver she is. What is her platform, other than restore the status quo ante of the Circles only under her personal control if possible? If she was all about reforming the Circles, why didn't we hear of her in Asunder, except that they hadn't thought of her yet?
 

3.If you listen to Cole and her conversation, you'll see there's more to it when you here what she saw rebel mages do to rebel. And it makes those rebel mages look like dicks as bad as the templers.

Her account of what happened there is hardly accurate. The templars weren't stirred to a frenzy by murders of mages, but by Lambert who was paranoid about the secret of Tranquility's reversibility getting out. He was cracking down, not allowing the mages to assemble, putting them on lockdown, he ordered Evangeline to kill everyone in her party rather than let the news get out (she refused), threatened to kill all the first enchanters if Rhys didn't confess to possession, and finally admitted he'd been looking to provoke a mage rebellion. When Fiona called for a vote to have the Circles be under mage control, he attacked them. Vivienne wouldn't know any of this, of course, because she wasn't there, and according to Cole she likes templars and thinks what they did was right- apparently whatever they did was right?

#152
leaguer of one

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I'm not sure what sort of systems improver she is. What is her platform, other than restore the status quo ante of the Circles only under her personal control if possible? If she was all about reforming the Circles, why didn't we hear of her in Asunder, except that they hadn't thought of her yet? 

Even under the status quo she want to give the mages more freedom in the circles then they had before. Heck, when she becomes divine the mages are allowed to have a stronger and louder political voice.

And she was not in the events of Asunders because she was part of the event of Masked empire.


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#153
Jaison1986

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Even under the status quo she want to give the mages more freedom in the circles then they had before. Heck, when she becomes divine the mages are allowed to have a stronger and louder political voice.

And she was not in the events of Asunders because she was part of the event of Masked empire.

 

My question is, what will happen once Vivienne dies? What exactly stops the system to go back to the old ways once the only person that makes an difference is gone? With Leliana, she at least makes world shattering changes that will likely last after her reign ends. But with Vivienne, virtually nothing changes, apart that templars likely can no longer abuse mages, wich can easily change after her death.



#154
Ryriena

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That was a shame, her and possible Sera could've played a bigger part there. Along with the whole arc being longer than one mission


Can we please not use that argument

Its true that she black and supports advocates to opress the Mages funny, when I speak the truth I get asked to not use this as an argument.

#155
Barquiel

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2.Her issue is more when they mages rebelled not the fact they rebelled. She makes a point that doing so after the kirkwall incident is not smart at all...She has a point.

 

 

The reason the mages rebelled after Kirkwall was that the templars became more and more tyrannical/oppressive. Rhys for example mentioned in Asunder that even simple outings into the city were no longer permitted...3 years after the events in Kirkwall! But of course Vivienne forgot to mention these details. I mean, it's relatively easy to say „it's a bad time“ when you're are probably the most privileged mage in Orlais.



#156
Addai

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Even under the status quo she want to give the mages more freedom in the circles then they had before. Heck, when she becomes divine the mages are allowed to have a stronger and louder political voice.
And she was not in the events of Asunders because she was part of the event of Masked empire.

This is expedient and happens under any of the Divine choices. BTW I responded to your other post up above.

Edit: And she's barely mentioned in The Masked Empire, either.

#157
leaguer of one

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My question is, what will happen once Vivienne dies? What exactly stops the system to go back to the old ways once the only person that makes an difference is gone? With Leliana, she at least makes world shattering changes that will likely last after her reign ends. But with Vivienne, virtually nothing changes, apart that templars likely can no longer abuse mages, wich can easily change after her death.

That can be asked with every other Divine. The only way to make sure it does not go back is to regulate it. Even with Leliana's choice to end the circle it's not like then next divine can't undo that choice. And Cassadra has the same issuse as well. The chantry and circle's issue was regulation not function. It had huge festering wounds which no one tried to treat. It was just left to rot.


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#158
daveliam

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My question is, what will happen once Vivienne dies? What exactly stops the system to go back to the old ways once the only person that makes an difference is gone? With Leliana, she at least makes world shattering changes that will likely last after her reign ends. But with Vivienne, virtually nothing changes, apart that templars likely can no longer abuse mages, wich can easily change after her death.

 

This is not a terribly compelling argument.  Leliana's reign is just as controversial as Vivienne's.  The only condition in which I can see Leliana's reforms lasting without opposition is if she has been "softened".  If she's been "hardened", then she's effectively keeping her reforms only through her oppressive actions so it leads directly to your concern as well.  If she's been neither 'softened' or 'hardened', then the epilogue specifically mentions that the Chantry is fracturing under her reign and is in danger of being torn apart for good.  Leliana's reign is just as tenuous as Vivienne's.  The only Divine who seems to have lasting success regardless is Cassandra and even some of her epilogue slides show concerns.  I think Divine Victoria I is specifically being set up to have a controversial and tenuous reign so that they aren't locked into anything from a story-telling perspective.

 

The reason the mages rebelled after Kirkwall was that the templars became more and more tyrannical/oppressive. Rhys for example mentioned in Asunder that even simple outings into the city were no longer permitted...3 years after the events in Kirkwall! But of course Vivienne forgot to mention these details. I mean, it's relatively easy to say „it's a bad time“ when you're are probably the most privileged mage in Orlais.

 

But she does mention this.  She specifically cites Kirkwall as the most oppressive of the Circles when she explains that all of the Circles were different.



#159
leaguer of one

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The reason the mages rebelled after Kirkwall was that the templars became more and more tyrannical/oppressive. Rhys for example mentioned in Asunder that even simple outings into the city were no longer permitted...3 years after the events in Kirkwall! But of course Vivienne forgot to mention these details. I mean, it's relatively easy to say „it's a bad time“ when you're are probably the most privileged mage in Orlais.

Why it happen was not ignored. But you have to admit doing it after the kirkwall indecent does not place the mages in a good light to the people on the outside who don't see all the details. And what the mages did during the rebellions did not help there view at all.


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#160
Boost32

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My question is, what will happen once Vivienne dies? What exactly stops the system to go back to the old ways once the only person that makes an difference is gone? With Leliana, she at least makes world shattering changes that will likely last after her reign ends. But with Vivienne, virtually nothing changes, apart that templars likely can no longer abuse mages, wich can easily change after her death.

The same thing can be said by any Divine.
What if after Leliana dies a new Divine declare that mages can no longer be independent and declare a exalted march on them? Saying that things can go back to the way they were before is not exaclty a exclusivity to Vivienne.
And Vivienne change the system, she gave mages more freedom and responsabilities and keep a short leash on templars, if you like the way she changes is another thing.
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#161
TheKomandorShepard

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Then you need to look at her ends over her means. She is willing to do what it takes to get the job done but ask yourself what is the  "job". Does she want to be divine for herself or to improve the systems she's in? She never seems as a power for powers sake type of person.

Eee no pretty much we can see that her greatest fear is irrelevance so she seeks power for herself , she is self-centred and manipulative so i don't rly care about her claims how selfless she is she wants power for herself and even epilogue shows that.So yes she want to be divine for herself... she literally not only wants mages to follow rules that she don't want to follow in first place she didn't went to orlesian court to make world a better place just to satisfay her power hunger so please spare me how she want make world better place.



#162
Rundy Bundles

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The same thing can be said by any Divine.
What if after Leliana dies a new Divine declare that mages can no longer be independent and declare a exalted march on them? Saying that things can go back to the way they were before is not exaclty a exclusivity to Vivienne.
And Vivienne change the system, she gave mages more freedom and responsabilities and keep a short leash on templars, if you like the way she changes is another thing.

Actually, she gives the mages (the possibility of) rising to political power as well, right? If, assuming Viv lives long enough for some mages to reach high positions then I wonder what would happen if an anti-mage Divine successor came to the Sunburst Throne. It might be interesting...but yeah, I'm quite fond of divine!Vivienne and divine!Cassandra so I'm biased :P


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#163
daveliam

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Eee no pretty much we can see that her greatest fear is irrelevance so she seeks power for herself , she is self-centred and manipulative so i don't rly care about her claims how selfless she is she wants power for herself and even epilogue shows that.So yes she want to be divine for herself... she literally not only wants mages to follow rules that she don't want to follow in first place she didn't went to orlesian court to make world a better place just to satisfay her power hunger so please spare me how she want make world better place.

 

Except that irrelevance =/= lack of power.  She can be highly relevant without wielding supreme executive power. 

 

Also, she gives the mages greater independence and authority under her new Circle, so she's not asking them to play by different rules than she's playing by.  If anything, she's granting them the ability to play by the rules that she earned through her political machinations. 

 

No one is saying that she's not self-serving.  Of course she is.  But if you think that this is the only thing that drives her, I think you've got a very narrow and (in my opinion) naive view on her motivations.  There's more to her than just "power-hungry". 

 

Actually, she gives the mages (the possibility of) rising to political power as well, right? If, assuming Viv lives long enough for some mages to reach high positions then I wonder what would happen if an anti-mage Divine successor came to the Sunburst Throne. It might be interesting...but yeah, I'm quite fond of divine!Vivienne and divine!Cassandra so I'm biased :P

 

As much as I love Vivienne, I greatly prefer Divine Cassandra the Disgusted Noise Maker.  She's the best Divine Victoria in my mind, by far.


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#164
TheKomandorShepard

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Except that irrelevance =/= lack of power.  She can be highly relevant without wielding supreme executive power. 

 

Also, she gives the mages greater independence and authority under her new Circle, so she's not asking them to play by different rules than she's playing by.  If anything, she's granting them the ability to play by the rules that she earned through her political machinations. 

 

No one is saying that she's not self-serving.  Of course she is.  But if you think that this is the only thing that drives her, I think you've got a very narrow and (in my opinion) naive view on her motivations.  There's more to her than just "power-hungry". 

 

 

As much as I love Vivienne, I greatly prefer Divine Cassandra the Disgusted Noise Maker.  She's the best Divine Victoria in my mind, by far.

 

Please don't even go there because it is obvious what irrelevance means here as i said she didn't went to orleasin court for no reason just out of her power hunger.

 

"Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her. "  Pretty much shows that all that power is her hands she is power hungry as i said that she did something for someone doesn't mean that she did that selflessly as her epilogue shows she didn't.

 

It is you can claim that she wants good or something but that cleary isn't her motivation as i said she didn't went to orlesian court to change world for better place she went there to have power they only thing she cares.



#165
daveliam

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Please don't even go there because it is obvious what irrelevance means here as i said she didn't went to orleasin court for no reason just out of her power hunger.

 

"Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her. "  Pretty much shows that all that power is her hands she is power hungry as i said that she did something for someone doesn't mean that she did that selflessly as her epilogue shows she didn't.

 

It is you can claim that she wants good or something but that cleary isn't her motivation as i said she didn't went to orlesian court to change wold for better place she went there to have power they only thing she cares.

 

Well, I disagree with you.  The fact that she gives more freedom and responsibilities to mages does show that she cares about their positions to a degree.  Otherwise, she could have just incorporated a revision of the old status quo but with her holding the power.  Either way, she's going to hold the power (again, no one is saying that she doesn't want power and control), but her actions show that she also cares about the mages.

 

Again, it's the absolute nature of your statements that demonstrates to me that you are just not viewing her in an unbiased way.  Again, no one is saying that she doesn't want power.  She's an ambitious woman.  Of course she wants power.  But that is also clearly not the only thing that she wants.  Regardless of whether she has the Inquisitions support, she betters the positions for mages.  It's right there in the epilogue.  You can hand-wave it away, but it's not convincing.  It's not a black-or-white situation.  It's full of gray, yet you insist that she's not gray.


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#166
Xilizhra

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I've... softened on Vivienne somewhat. I do consider her to be egotistical and uncaring about the problems that other mages were facing under the templar crackdown (and it's completely absurd that she thought that joining the rebellion meant that you had to support terrorism), but her ideas are at least worth considering, even if I don't believe she should be in charge.

 

But I kind of think she might only care about mages who share her opinions.


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#167
daveliam

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I've... softened on Vivienne somewhat. I do consider her to be egotistical and uncaring about the problems that other mages were facing under the templar crackdown (and it's completely absurd that she thought that joining the rebellion meant that you had to support terrorism), but her ideas are at least worth considering, even if I don't believe she should be in charge.

 

But I kind of think she might only care about mages who share her opinions.

 

I think that Vivienne truly feels that she cares for all mages, even the rebel mages.  She just thinks that they made a terrible mistake and that she knows what's better for them.  On that point, you can certainly agree or disagree (it's at the heart of the Mage-Templar War, frankly).  But I genuinely think that she doesn't 'not care' about rebel mages.  Apostates who reject the Circle or College altogether?  Yeah, maybe she might not care for them.  That one I'll give you. 



#168
TheKomandorShepard

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Well, I disagree with you.  The fact that she gives more freedom and responsibilities to mages does show that she cares about their positions to a degree.  Otherwise, she could have just incorporated a revision of the old status quo but with her holding the power.  Either way, she's going to hold the power (again, no one is saying that she doesn't want power and control), but her actions show that she also cares about the mages.

 

Again, it's the absolute nature of your statements that demonstrates to me that you are just not viewing her in an unbiased way.  Again, no one is saying that she doesn't want power.  She's an ambitious woman.  Of course she wants power.  But that is also clearly not the only thing that she wants.  Regardless of whether she has the Inquisitions support, she betters the positions for mages.  It's right there in the epilogue.  You can hand-wave it away, but it's not convincing.  It's not a black-or-white situation.  It's full of gray, yet you insist that she's not gray.

 

It is like saying if i do charity i do care not use it to look better. :rolleyes:

 

She pretty much did she is in sole control of everything doesn't mean that she raised mages freedom for sake of other mages but simple for herself there is no any indication that she want good for others not even a little one as i said she want subjugate to rules she herself don't want to follow in fact cole outright says she don't want to be controled again not mention that she pretty much don't care about mages opinion.  

 

I love how people will go miles and miles to just try prove that their favorite or liked character isn't bad just misunderstood **** even Thalmor have supporters.



#169
Xilizhra

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I think that Vivienne truly feels that she cares for all mages, even the rebel mages.  She just thinks that they made a terrible mistake and that she knows what's better for them.  On that point, you can certainly agree or disagree (it's at the heart of the Mage-Templar War, frankly).  But I genuinely think that she doesn't 'not care' about rebel mages.  Apostates who reject the Circle or College altogether?  Yeah, maybe she might not care for them.  That one I'll give you. 

In the end, I think Vivienne is the sort of cynic who sees what the problems are and is good at pointing them out, but who doesn't have the spiritual fortitude to try to fix any of them, at least the truly systemic ones. Ironically, Sera is much the same way.

 

Why do you think she does care about the rebels, though?



#170
Addai

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Well, I disagree with you.  The fact that she gives more freedom and responsibilities to mages does show that she cares about their positions to a degree.  Otherwise, she could have just incorporated a revision of the old status quo but with her holding the power.  Either way, she's going to hold the power (again, no one is saying that she doesn't want power and control), but her actions show that she also cares about the mages.

I don't see it this way. The fact is that the status quo ante simply isn't possible. This is apparent since all the Divine and mage-templar outcomes result in mages having more freedom and the Circles changing to one degree or another. As I said above, Vivienne giving mages extra freedoms is expedient, it's not something that's part of her platform. Correct me if I'm wrong, but where does she ever say "of course mages should have more freedom" or something to this effect? Cole says she believes the templars were right. He says this in context of Lambert's crackdown and deliberate provoking of a rebellion. So is she clueless or does she really like having a whip as long as she holds the handle?

#171
Rundy Bundles

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Please don't even go there because it is obvious what irrelevance means here as i said she didn't went to orleasin court for no reason just out of her power hunger.
 
"Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her. "  Pretty much shows that all that power is her hands she is power hungry as i said that she did something for someone doesn't mean that she did that selflessly as her epilogue shows she didn't.
 
It is you can claim that she wants good or something but that cleary isn't her motivation as i said she didn't went to orlesian court to change world for better place she went there to have power they only thing she cares.

Well, I disagree with you.  The fact that she gives more freedom and responsibilities to mages does show that she cares about their positions to a degree.  Otherwise, she could have just incorporated a revision of the old status quo but with her holding the power.  Either way, she's going to hold the power (again, no one is saying that she doesn't want power and control), but her actions show that she also cares about the mages.
 
Again, it's the absolute nature of your statements that demonstrates to me that you are just not viewing her in an unbiased way.  Again, no one is saying that she doesn't want power.  She's an ambitious woman.  Of course she wants power.  But that is also clearly not the only thing that she wants.  Regardless of whether she has the Inquisitions support, she betters the positions for mages.  It's right there in the epilogue.  You can hand-wave it away, but it's not convincing.  It's not a black-or-white situation.  It's full of gray, yet you insist that she's not gray.

Yeah, I don't think ambition or power are bad things, if used correctly. Slightly off topic, but my history teacher, once made the observation that this one controversial figure "ruled like a dictator, but ironically, gave people liberty." Now, maybe it's a bit far to call Vivienne a dictator by any means, but ...hopefully that comment provides some insight? I mean, yeah, she holds the power, but mages do get some freedom and can even reach for political power iirc. She holds the power because she's competent, or at least has the will and drive a leader would need after the Mage-Templar War and other events in Inquisition.
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#172
daveliam

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It is like saying if i do charity i do care not use it to look better. :rolleyes:

 

She pretty much did she is in sole control of everything doesn't mean that she raised mages freedom for sake of other mages but simple for herself there is no any indication that she want good for others not even a little one as i said she want subjugate to rules she herself don't want to follow in fact cole outright says she don't want to be controled again.  

 

Again, it doesn't matter why she gave mages freedoms, she did it.  You seem to think that the fact that it benefited her as well negates the good that she did for the mages. 

 

To use your own analogy, it would be like saying, "Well I consider that you didn't do any charity at all because you only did it to look better."  But if I built houses for the homeless to make myself look better, do those houses not count?  Can the homeless not live in them?  Do they not still benefit their living situation?  Is it fair to say that I didn't help the homeless?

 

Like it or not, Vivienne helps the mages.  She gains power when she does it.  But there is literally no way that you can argue that she doesn't improve the conditions for mages under her rule.  And, she doesn't have to do that in order to rule (she could just go back to status quo), so doesn't that imply that she, at least partially, cares about the condition of mages? 

 

In the end, I think Vivienne is the sort of cynic who sees what the problems are and is good at pointing them out, but who doesn't have the spiritual fortitude to try to fix any of them, at least the truly systemic ones. Ironically, Sera is much the same way.

 

Why do you think she does care about the rebels, though?

 

Because she still welcomes them back into the Circle and there's no indication that only loyalists have opportunities to thrive there.  Yes, I'm sure that loyalist mages probably gain the most opportunities under her rule, but I cannot imagine that a moderate rebel mage, like Rhys, wouldn't have opportunities to thrive in her new Circle.  There's a patronizing tone to her thoughts about rebel mages, but I think that she doesn't want to see them hurt or oppressed. 

 

I don't see it this way. The fact is that the status quo ante simply isn't possible. This is apparent since all the Divine and mage-templar outcomes result in mages having more freedom and the Circles changing to one degree or another. As I said above, Vivienne giving mages extra freedoms is expedient, it's not something that's part of her platform. Correct me if I'm wrong, but where does she ever say "of course mages should have more freedom" or something to this effect? Cole says she believes the templars were right. He says this in context of Lambert's crackdown and deliberate provoking of a rebellion. So is she clueless or does she really like having a whip as long as she holds the handle?

 

The status quo could be possible in theory though.  Again, I think that the writers are trying to keep options open, so that's why we see similar outcomes from all three Divines.  But, that being said, if it weren't in Vivienne's character to reform and reform were necessary from a plot driven stance, then they would have only had Leliana and Cassandra as options. 

 

I never got the impression that she was against mage freedoms at all.  I don't remember every line of dialogue with her off the top of my head, so I don't remember if she ever said the line that you mention.  But it's certainly implied in all of her dialogue that she supports mage freedoms.....to a point.  And there's a line in her mind at which she feels that those freedoms then run counterproductive by offering too many opportunities for mage corruption.  To me, this is why she supports the templars to a degree (not completely, mind you, as she still reforms the order).  She views the templars policing as necessary; as a form of checks and balances against mage corruption. 

 

She definitely is the most conservative mage that we've seen (outside of someone like Keili from DA: O) and there's certainly a bias in her views.  She's worked hard to get herself into a place where she has privileges that means that she doesn't need to deal with the daily life of an 'everyday mage'.  I take what she says as being viewed through that lens.  The same way that I take what Anders says as colored through a particular lens.  We've been fortunate to have the perspectives of several Circle mages:  Wynne, Anders, Rhys, and Vivienne.  Anders is one extreme, but there's truth to what he says.  Vivienne is the other, but there's truth to what she says.  Wynne and Rhys seem to recognize parts of both extremes, but fall somewhere in the middle.  I tend to believe their view as the closest to the 'truth', but it doesn't mean that some of what Anders and Vivienne say are also true.  At least, that's how I see it.


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#173
TheKomandorShepard

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Yeah, I don't think ambition or power are bad things, if used correctly. Slightly off topic, but my history teacher, once made the observation that this one controversial figure "ruled like a dictator, but ironically, gave people liberty." Now, maybe it's a bit far to call Vivienne a dictator by any means, but ...hopefully that comment provides some insight? I mean, yeah, she holds the power, but mages do get some freedom and can even reach for political power iirc. She holds the power because she's competent, or at least has the will and drive a leader would need after the Mage-Templar War and other events in Inquisition.

I didn't say ambition and power are bad i said that viviene isn't what people are trying to make her be and make her look better than she is.Still i don't see her as something good because of her self-centred nature and delicate issue that mages are i can see circle quickly becoming corrupted in her hands.

 

 

Again, it doesn't matter why she gave mages freedoms, she did it.  You seem to think that the fact that it benefited her as well negates the good that she did for the mages. 

 

To use your own analogy, it would be like saying, "Well I consider that you didn't do any charity at all because you only did it to look better."  But if I built houses for the homeless to make myself look better, do those houses not count?  Can the homeless not live in them?  Do they not still benefit their living situation?  Is it fair to say that I didn't help the homeless?

 

Like it or not, Vivienne helps the mages.  She gains power when she does it.  But there is literally no way that you can argue that she doesn't improve the conditions for mages under her rule.  And, she doesn't have to do that in order to rule (she could just go back to status quo), so doesn't that imply that she, at least partially, cares about the condition of mages? 

 

 

And you ignored thing i argued against and went for another... 

 

And no that i will burn city and donate few houses don't make me messiah as i said she is self-serving i can see circles easliy becoming corrupted under her rule but it wasn't thing i even argued against.

 

And how do you know that she improves their condition?More freedoms and responsibilities don't mean less abuses in circle as tevinter proves , you can only imagine what system toward mages our viv can inflict to get her way.And no as i said reason probabbly was self-centred to gain more influence as far no evidence of her caring about mages.      



#174
Xilizhra

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Because she still welcomes them back into the Circle and there's no indication that only loyalists have opportunities to thrive there.  Yes, I'm sure that loyalist mages probably gain the most opportunities under her rule, but I cannot imagine that a moderate rebel mage, like Rhys, wouldn't have opportunities to thrive in her new Circle.  There's a patronizing tone to her thoughts about rebel mages, but I think that she doesn't want to see them hurt or oppressed. 

What would she do under Leliana?



#175
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But she does mention this. She specifically cites Kirkwall as the most oppressive of the Circles when she explains that all of the Circles were different.


She even states that was one of the problems, each circle being different caused the one like Kirkwall to happen
  • daveliam aime ceci