270 réponses à ce sujet

[Boost32]

What would she do under Leliana?

If Leliana is Divine, I think she would estabilish her own Circle (like Fiona's College of Enchanters) with her loyalist mages, a Circle dedicated to provide magical support for the nobility, with this she would gain power and money to sustain her Circle.

And how do you know that she improves their condition?More freedoms and responsibilities don't mean less abuses in circle as tevinter proves , you can only imagine what system toward mages our viv can inflict to get her way.And no as i said reason probabbly was self-centred to gain more influence as far no evidence of her caring about mages.

If she gives them more freedom she cares about mages, and in a banter with Cole, he says how a assassination of one her mages at the hand of rebels affected her, so she cares about the mages that are under her leadership.

Im curious, who is the better Divine for you and why?

[TheKomandorShepard]

If she gives them more freedom she cares about mages, and in a banter with Cole, he says how a assassination of one her mages at the hand of rebels affected her, so she cares about the mages that are under her leadership.

Im curious, who is the better Divine for you and why?

Not rly but i guess someone doesn't know how politics works and that if you do something doesn't mean you care and i don't recall that and i have read her banters with cole.

 

You ask about being good divine or being better divine if first neither if second cassandra for simple reason she is safest bet as viviene easliy can lead to circles corruption under her self-serving rule and with leliana it will lead to chaos and destruction because mages will be uncheked cassandra is one that will watch over mages and ensure they won't become corrupted as well cassandra is much more altrustic to care more about society than viv without pretty much leaving thedas unsecure like leliana.

[In Exile]

Even under the status quo she want to give the mages more freedom in the circles then they had before. Heck, when she becomes divine the mages are allowed to have a stronger and louder political voice.
And she was not in the events of Asunders because she was part of the event of Masked empire.

Vivienne chastises the mages for being unwilling to suffer conditions she escaped from decades ago. She's a mage living in the lap of luxury in Orlais. She has a title at Court and is the mistress - an official-ish position in Orlais - of one of its most powerful nobles. She is not watched by templars, is not at risk of being abused, made tranquil on a win, or restricted in her movements.

There's nothing more hypocritical than her chastising mages for what they did from her position not just of privilege but as an Orlesian courtier who isn't even part of the Circle.

[Boost32]

Not rly but i guess someone doesn't know how politics works and that if you do something doesn't mean you care and i don't recall that and i have read her banters with cole.
 
You ask about being good divine or being better divine if first neither if second cassandra for simple reason she is safest bet as viviene easliy can lead to circles corruption under her self-serving rule and with leliana it will lead to chaos and destruction because mages will be uncheked cassandra is one that will watch over mages and ensure they won't become corrupted as well cassandra is much more altrustic to care more about society than viv without pretty much leaving thedas unsecure like leliana.

Here is the banter https://m.youtube.co...h?v=b0zNyv_WdH0 at 1:46:10, she cares about her mages, its not only politics.

It was the second. And I dont know how a Non obligatory Cicle is the best bet against corruption.

[Ryriena]

If she cares so much for her Mages then why did she stand by and let the templars get way with the abuses in her cricle?

[Boost32]

If she cares so much for her Mages then why did she stand by and let the templars get way with the abuses in her cricle?

Whats abuses ocurred in her Circle?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Here is the banter https://m.youtube.co...h?v=b0zNyv_WdH0 at 1:46:10, she cares about her mages, its not only politics.

It was the second. And I dont know how a Non obligatory Cicle is the best bet against corruption.

And where it says she cares eee i missed that part cole mentioned that somewhere? all i see that cole mentions killed mage that viviene knew.

 

Simple by having power hungry and self-centred person that rule it note that person is a mage so not rly reason to protect intrests of non-mages.

[daveliam]

What would she do under Leliana?

 

Well, if I had to predict, I'd say:

 

Regardless of Leliana's 'status' - Vivienne would seek to be one of the influencing mages in their new governing body.

 

"Hardened" Leliana - This is probably Vivienne's worst situation because she would likely oppose some of Leliana's more liberal stances, so she would either end up losing political influence (I would guess that she would retreat to place where she could have more influence, like the Court in Orlais, if it's still an option for her) or she'd end up as one of Leliana's victims.

 

"Softened" Leliana - She would likely carve out of place of privilege, comfort, and prestige in the negotiations and live comfortably with a fair amount of influence.

 

"Neutral" Leliana - This one would end up being fine for her as well.  Even though the Circle and Chantry would likely cease to exist, she'd end up influencing a political faction of circle and chantry loyalists.

 

That would be my best guess at how she'd end up in each of the Leliana as Divine situations.

 

Vivienne chastises the mages for being unwilling to suffer conditions she escaped from decades ago. She's a mage living in the lap of luxury in Orlais. She has a title at Court and is the mistress - an official-ish position in Orlais - of one of its most powerful nobles. She is not watched by templars, is not at risk of being abused, made tranquil on a win, or restricted in her movements.

There's nothing more hypocritical than her chastising mages for what they did from her position not just of privilege but as an Orlesian courtier who isn't even part of the Circle.

 

This isn't really how I see the situation.  I see it as Vivienne chastising people for choosing an inopportune time to rebel.  She acknowledges the problems with Templar corruption, but views it as the lesser of the two evils when compared to mage corruption.  I also wouldn't be surprised if she has a "Well I worked my way out of that situation, so why can't they if they wanted to" attitude as well.  The latter suggests a bit of a chip on her shoulder about her place of prestige.  I can see how people might view it as hypocritical to a degree, but I think that in her mind, it's more nuanced than just "They should deal with it" from an ivory tower. 

[Addai]

 

This isn't really how I see the situation.  I see it as Vivienne chastising people for choosing an inopportune time to rebel.  She acknowledges the problems with Templar corruption, but views it as the lesser of the two evils when compared to mage corruption.  I also wouldn't be surprised if she has a "Well I worked my way out of that situation, so why can't they if they wanted to" attitude as well.  The latter suggests a bit of a chip on her shoulder about her place of prestige.  I can see how people might view it as hypocritical to a degree, but I think that in her mind, it's more nuanced than just "They should deal with it" from an ivory tower. 

She does call them "malcontents," which suggests she sees them as spoiled children exaggerating their woes to cause a tantrum. "Deal with it" seems to be exactly her attitude.

[daveliam]

She does call them "malcontents," which suggests she sees them as spoiled children exaggerating their woes to cause a tantrum. "Deal with it" seems to be exactly her attitude.

 

Except that she is in favor of Circle reform in order improve their living conditions and, if made Divine, actually implements those reform efforts herself?

[Addai]

Except that she is in favor of Circle reform in order improve their living conditions and, if made Divine, actually implements those reform efforts herself?

Again, where does she ever advocate any such ideas? The fact is that she's not going to get the mages under her leash willingly unless she promises them something.

 

Incidentally, since her tarot was offered as proof of her representing knowledge and understanding, Mary Kirby compared her to Ortolan bunting- a bird who is either blinded or kept in a dark box to force it to gorge itself on grain or figs before it's drowned in Armagnac. Sounds like quite a compassionate sort.

[Ryriena]

Whats abuses ocurred in her Circle?

Cole for one metions beatings, rapes, and other things.

[Ryriena]

Cole: The templars hurt mages.

Vivienne: Stupid, panicking mages who became a danger to themselves and others because of you!

Vivienne: You brought matters in the Spire to a head. Without you, there would be no rebellion.

Vivienne: Countless deaths are on your head, demon. Are you satisfied with the result of you protection?


Cole: You're lying. You're... twist the words right, and it will show its true form. Blood or banishment, either will suffice.
Cole: You like the tamplars. You think they were right.

[Hazegurl]

My biggest problem with Viv is that the writers seemed biased against us to show her "political and conversation prowess." We're not allowed to have a discussion, or respond in a way that seems equal. The only instances in which this happens it's Solas replying to her, but the inquisitor? It's specially painfull if you get the scene in which she decides to move your stuff around. You can't do anything to get ahead of this fight. A Inquisitor that was aggresive could have just kicked her out of the Inquisition, get her investigated by Templars. But no, instead it seems that since her character has to be that good in conversations she just need to have conversations in which she is always dropping the metaphorical microphone, and each time she does that it seems she has to gloat by calling someone darling, and we know how much she uses that word.

I like her. I like her best whenever she's not sassing because it's just overdone. On the other side, conceptually I love Sera, and how it was realized. Personally I can't stand her but I have to applaud the work done there.

This is my only problem with Vivienne, I also think all the companions aside from Sera are handled in this manner but it becomes painful with Vivienne. I would even advise players to only recruit Vivienne if you plan on getting along with her by being pro circle, pro Templars, Mage conscription et al. If not, save yourself the trouble.

 

Other than that, I love Vivienne and I think she's right about a lot of things she says concerning the Mages and I believe that her way of obtaining freedom and power for mages is the best.

 

Is there any way to prevent Vivienne gaining more influence through Bastien's death?

 

Give her the fake heart.

[Carmen_Willow]

The AI for her makes her act like a normal pew pew mage most of the time. You have to micromanage.

And set her knight enchanter spells on "preferred." Sometimes, I even disable her other spells for the duration of a dragon fight.

[Addai]

And set her knight enchanter spells on "preferred." Sometimes, I even disable her other spells for the duration of a dragon fight.

Oh, about this- I think the problem could be if the PC is ranged and she's set to follow the controlled character, she will tend to stay ranged in that case. Which is the AI working as it's supposed to.

[In Exile]

This isn't really how I see the situation. I see it as Vivienne chastising people for choosing an inopportune time to rebel. She acknowledges the problems with Templar corruption, but views it as the lesser of the two evils when compared to mage corruption. I also wouldn't be surprised if she has a "Well I worked my way out of that situation, so why can't they if they wanted to" attitude as well. The latter suggests a bit of a chip on her shoulder about her place of prestige. I can see how people might view it as hypocritical to a degree, but I think that in her mind, it's more nuanced than just "They should deal with it" from an ivory tower.

It's an inopportune time for her. The mages themselves were subject to ever increasing restraints on their liberty on the basis of crimes they never committed. IRL the Circles were always dangerously close to crimes against humanity, and the post-Kirkwall situation had the templars double down on the abuse.

Vivienne has no moral basis to criticise the mages. She isn't in their position and doesn't even share their agenda. She has no standing to say they were wrong to push back against restrictions she was not subject to in return for freedoms that she doesn't want and in any event already had acquired.

It's not just hypocritical to a degree - it is about the maximum level of hypocrisy one could have in the circumstances. She chastises mages for wanting exactly what she has on the basis of their pursuing it in a way that makes life somewhat less comfortable for her, and she wraps it up in justifications that do not seem to bear out at all in what she does in response.

She says she's the leader of the last loyal mages. But she has no mage allies. There's no mage with her at the mansion. She does not have mages sitting in a Circle. She has no people who side with her. She talks about mages forced to fight mages but that never happens - and indeed mages who are opposed to the rebellion like Connor and that tavern dude are stuck with rebelling despite their wishes.

All she does is a show for the Orlesian nobility that she's still the good little mage who supports the current order.

[LOLandStuff]

She does call them "malcontents," which suggests she sees them as spoiled children exaggerating their woes to cause a tantrum. "Deal with it" seems to be exactly her attitude.

 

This coming from a person who rearranges your furniture just because she disapproves of you.

[Rekkampum]

Well, my PC is an even more ridiculously overpowered Knight Enchanter so moot.

 

Oh yeah? Try Knight Enchanter Viv maxed out from farming Amulets of power!

 

You know I keep hearing about this so I take her on dragon fights and she's yet to do any of that OP Knight Enchanter jazz people keep talking about. Quite sad

 

The AI is crap. Now granted this person isn't using Viv, you could basically do the same with her if you build her right:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=xSA-xQHkTug

[ComedicSociopathy]

This coming from a person who rearranges your furniture just because she disapproves of you.

 

The woman can be quite petty when it comes to showing her disapproval and it's unfortunate that we can't debate her mage issues or even being up the obvious fact that she doesn't live in the Circles. 

[LOLandStuff]

The woman can be quite petty when it comes to showing her disapproval and it's unfortunate that we can't debate her mage issues or even being up the obvious fact that she doesn't live in the Circles. 

 

Your dialogue wheel when dealing with that scene is basically composed of:

-Cry a little inside

-Duuh...

-Throw a hissy fit

 

Every time you disagree with her it's just you whining and not knowing what you're talking about. I think a human mage should've had more options since they lived in a Circle.

 

Too bad you can't kick her out. But she does take it bad when you refuse her offer of joining the Inquisition, just by her tone.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Vivenne outright DISAPPROVES of you putting the banner saying the people matter to you if you side with the Templars with her essentially saying why would you care about a bunch of uneducated peasants, she says that the Inqusition doesn't need uneducated peasants but gold when Vale suggests recruiting skilled commoners and I think is the only companion who doesn't approve if you recruit skilled commoners, and if you flirt with her, one of her responses is "My dear, what possible benefit could I get from this." Apparently she thinks a relationship is only about how you benefit from it. Don't forget how she's also a hypocrite who says the Circles weren't that bad yet outright admits she didn't live in the Circle but instead in a mansion of a powerful Duke. That just shows that her arguments shouldn't be taken that seriously considering the hypocrisy she says. She's nothing more than a hypocritical elitist snob. 

[leaguer of one]

 
Her account of what happened there is hardly accurate. The templars weren't stirred to a frenzy by murders of mages, but by Lambert who was paranoid about the secret of Tranquility's reversibility getting out. He was cracking down, not allowing the mages to assemble, putting them on lockdown, he ordered Evangeline to kill everyone in her party rather than let the news get out (she refused), threatened to kill all the first enchanters if Rhys didn't confess to possession, and finally admitted he'd been looking to provoke a mage rebellion. When Fiona called for a vote to have the Circles be under mage control, he attacked them. Vivienne wouldn't know any of this, of course, because she wasn't there, and according to Cole she likes templars and thinks what they did was right- apparently whatever they did was right?

Not that. She was never part of that. I'm talking about what she saw after the events in other circle. Cole reads her and states it out loud to her dismay.

 

https://www.youtube....Nyv_WdH0#t=6373

1:46:13

[Rekkampum]

if you flirt with her, one of her responses is "My dear, what possible benefit could I get from this." Apparently she thinks a relationship is only about how you benefit from it.

 

 

 

Don't forget how she's also a hypocrite who says the Circles weren't that bad yet outright admits she didn't live in the Circle but instead in a mansion of a powerful Duke. That just shows that her arguments shouldn't be taken that seriously considering the hypocrisy she says. She's nothing more than a hypocritical elitist snob. 

 

Generally, I'd expect that anyone in a relationship would hope to have some sort of benefit, whether it's love, companionship, sex, etc. She's already in love with someone during the events of DAI; I think her asking that to a person she doesn't even know on an intimate level makes perfect sense.

 

She also says that each Circle is different; some are good, others not so much. She also came from the Ostick Circle and later lived in Montsimmard.

So yeah... clear your head a bit. Anger has clouded your mind, padawan.

[leaguer of one]

Edit: And she's barely mentioned in The Masked Empire, either.

She has dialogue in it for a brief moment. And were she was at the time is relevant. If she is in the party in Masked empire then it would be impossible for her to be in the spire in asunder. The books nearly happen at the same time.