270 réponses à ce sujet

[thesuperdarkone2]

Generally, I'd expect that anyone in a relationship would hope to have some sort of benefit, whether it's love, companionship, sex, etc. She's already in love with someone during the events of DAI; I think her asking that to a person she doesn't even know on an intimate level makes perfect sense.

 

She also says that each Circle is different; some are good, others not so much. She also came from the Ostick Circle and later lived in Montsimmard.

So yeah... clear your head a bit. Anger has clouded your mind, padawan.

Exile's post puts it better than I ever could.

[leaguer of one]

She does call them "malcontents," which suggests she sees them as spoiled children exaggerating their woes to cause a tantrum. "Deal with it" seems to be exactly her attitude.

Based on her perspective,what they could of done to the mages after the kirkwall incident  and them not doing does make them look like spoiled children. Added the they are living in a place that has better conditions then most of thedus.

[leaguer of one]

The woman can be quite petty when it comes to showing her disapproval and it's unfortunate that we can't debate her mage issues or even being up the obvious fact that she doesn't live in the Circles. 

You missed the fact that she use to live in the circle. She earned her freedom.

[leaguer of one]

Vivienne chastises the mages for being unwilling to suffer conditions she escaped from decades ago. She's a mage living in the lap of luxury in Orlais. She has a title at Court and is the mistress - an official-ish position in Orlais - of one of its most powerful nobles. She is not watched by templars, is not at risk of being abused, made tranquil on a win, or restricted in her movements.

There's nothing more hypocritical than her chastising mages for what they did from her position not just of privilege but as an Orlesian courtier who isn't even part of the Circle.

Except for the fact that every circle is differnet, other mages are also won there freedom, and her arguments against the rebellions is "when" they did it no why.

[leaguer of one]

Exile's post puts it better than I ever could.

Actually, Vivi is the type of person who always shows themselves at their strongest. I doubt she want to show someone she hardly knows her weaker side. She always has her poker face up and the only time it's down is when help her get the heart of snow white.

[Rekkampum]

Actually, Vivi is the type of person who always shows themselves at their strongest. I doubt she want to show someone she hardly knows her weaker side. She always has her poker face up and the only time it's down is when help her get the heart of snow white.

 

Speaking of Poker face, am I the only one who wants to see her play Josie in a game of Wicked Grace?

[Boost32]

Cole for one metions beatings, rapes, and other things.

None of those mentioned happened in her Circle.

[Ryriena]

None of those mentioned happened in her Circle.

How about the fact she knew of murders in her circles committed by Templars and did nothing about it. If she knew about them then it was in her circle.

[LOLandStuff]

You missed the fact that she use to live in the circle. She earned her freedom.

 

She just got lucky a duke fancied her. It's not like she got out of her way and seduced him with her dance of the seven veils.

[Ryriena]

Pretty much she got lucky that the Duke fancyed her to get out of the circle.

[leaguer of one]

How about the fact she knew of murders in her circles committed by Templars and did nothing about it. If she knew about them then it was in her circle.

When did she every say she knows about that? Added, her circle was one of the more free ones.

[leaguer of one]

She just got lucky a duke fancied her. It's not like she got out of her way and seduced him with her dance of the seven veils.

 

 

Pretty much she got lucky that the Duke fancyed her to get out of the circle.

 

She did not get out because of that. She got out because she became the empress' court mage. She earned her way out, not slept.

[Ryriena]

Cole said she knew about it dude.

[Boost32]

How about the fact she knew of murders in her circles committed by Templars and did nothing about it. If she knew about them then it was in her circle.

It was about the templar retalation against the mages vote for independency, not murder comitted in her Circle.

[leaguer of one]

Cole said she knew about it dude.

No he did not. He never talks about it. I can link you all their banter to show you he never does.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Again, where does she ever advocate any such ideas? The fact is that she's not going to get the mages under her leash willingly unless she promises them something.

 

But does Vivienne really need to try to get the mages under her leash again if the templars were recruited? Since in that scenario, all the rebel mages are dead. And all the remaining mages are either loyalist or the mages which refused to take part in the conflict, the latter being those you help bring back into the fold in the templar wartable missions. So by the endgame all the mages have already been contained again.

 

And yet, she still gives the mages greater rights.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I wonder, did the people supporting Vivienne actually read Asunder? It was pretty obvious that every circle, including the liberal ones, were starting to actually become prisons. For starters, the mages could never leave for any reason and could never get permission to leave. Don't even get me started on mage-hater Lambert ruling the Circle.

[LOLandStuff]

She did not get out because of that. She got out because she became the empress' court mage. She earned her way out, not slept.

 

Vivienne was the duke's mistress long before become a mage court.

She was still an apprentice when they first met.

Pay attention to what she says and stop fawning over her.

[Addai]

Not that. She was never part of that. I'm talking about what she saw after the events in other circle. Cole reads her and states it out loud to her dismay.
 
https://www.youtube....Nyv_WdH0#t=6373
1:46:13

I see- Vivienne does seem to be protective of her apprentices. It's a good point.
 

She has dialogue in it for a brief moment. And were she was at the time is relevant. If she is in the party in Masked empire then it would be impossible for her to be in the spire in asunder. The books nearly happen at the same time.

I did a word search in TME (for Vivienne and Madam de Fer) and she only appears once, a brief mention in Celene's thoughts about consulting her as to why some nobles are close to the Circle of Montsimmard.
 

Based on her perspective,what they could of done to the mages after the kirkwall incident  and them not doing does make them look like spoiled children. Added the they are living in a place that has better conditions then most of thedus.

And yet Vivienne didn't stay. I think it's a ludicrous argument, by the way. Using the mere existence of poverty or suffering elsewhere to justify imprisoning an entire group of people, not to mention all that happens in the Circles. And yes, there's always that mythical Circle where it was different.

[LOLandStuff]

And yet Vivienne didn't stay.

 

They had a dress code. Robes for everyone.

[daveliam]

Vivienne was the duke's mistress long before become a mage court.

She was still an apprentice when they first met.

Pay attention to what she says and stop fawning over her.

 

You are making some big assumptions here.  Give me solid evidence that it happened the way you are saying and not the other way around.

 

The fact is, you might be right.  In fact, I'll say you are probably right.  She might have met Bastien as an apprentice and immediately become his mistress.  And then he might have arranged for her to move out of the Circle and into his estate.  And then she might have leveraged that relationship to get the position of Court Mage, and then been granted rooms in the Winter Palace as well.  That is a plausible way that it could have happened.

 

But, she might also have met him as a young apprentice at the Ball and fallen in love with him.  Then she might have run across him over the years where she pulled an Anne Boleyn style romance with him as she moved up politically, eventually securing the position of Court Mage and becoming his mistress.  That is a less likely, but also plausible way that it could have happened.

 

Why I am most likely done with this thread now is because, just like any other argument on BSN, most people are refusing for even a second to entertain the other point of view.  This is a great example of it.  There is literally no evidence to support your claim over the scenario that I mentioned, but you state it as if it is adamant fact and then add a snarky, passive aggressive line at the end for anyone who disagrees with you. 

 

Most of the Vivienne supporters in this thread like her, yet acknowledge her less redeeming qualities.  Most of the Vivienne haters in this thread are refusing to accept any positive given towards her.  It's why I appreciate that Xhil and Addai, while still not liking her, are willing to at least acknowledge good points made by her supporters.  <sigh> I should know better than to expect a debate on a 'controversial' character like Vivienne to not just turn into two sides yelling at each other and not listening to what the other side has to say.  I have a strong feeling that if we polled the people in the thread the vast majority of the Vivienne haters are also strong Pro-Mage Rebellion players and are letting that tint their interpretation of an incredibly well written and complex character.  Good old BSN.

[AresKeith]

Most of the Vivienne supporters in this thread like her, yet acknowledge her less redeeming qualities.  Most of the Vivienne haters in this thread are refusing to accept any positive given towards her. 

 

Sadly that's what almost everyone on BSN does for characters/groups they hate

[daveliam]

Sadly that's what almost everyone on BSN does for characters/groups they hate

 

And, ironically, in this case, condemn that character for being single-minded, refusing to see the other side of the argument, and having extreme views.  Oh, and being "hypocritical" because of it.......

[AresKeith]

And, ironically, in this case, condemn that character for being single-minded, refusing to see the other side of the argument, and having extreme views.  Oh, and being "hypocritical" because of it.......

 

That's also a BSN standard trait

[TheJediSaint]

I mean, obviously anyone who hold opinions contrary to mine is a hypocrite.  Isn't that what the word means?