133 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

I've gotten that vibe from the internet yet cannot understand why. On my first playthrough when I played my female qunari Inquisitor I felt deprived of good romance options (before falling for Sera's character) and with reservation chose Iron Bull. I thought the dynamic had a lot of potential with my pc being a mage Tal-Vashok and him staying loyal to the qun yet, like Fenris/mage Hawke, the possibilities are left untapped.

 

1. Iron Bull, much like Zevran and Isabela, isn't accustomed to romantic relationships. However, without reservations he accepts being with one woman and accepts her as "kadan" rather easily without much character development.

2. He displays no dismay about being with a Tal-Vashok, more importantly a mage, despite following the qun. That's a missed "forbidden love" opportunity. I'm aware he's not devout but the subject is ignored entirely.

3. Him inevitably returning to his people is only mentioned in passing. Seriously?

 

I will say Iron Bull has one enjoyable scene when Cullen, Josephine, and Cassandra walk in on him nude. Yet I'd prefer a romance to be less about humor and more character development.

 

Did others get this impression?

[BabyPuncher]

I've been wondering to myself how much of his general approval may have been based on him declaring Krem is a 'real man.' How much of it might be based on him validating transgender people.

 

I found him to be pretty uninteresting, personally. Prinze's accent didn't help much; he did a far more compelling job as Vega.

[BabyPuncher]

Iron Bull was popular long before Krem was ever heard of, you might want to try again if you really need to troll.

 

Which was before the game actually came out. And would therefore mean based solely upon how he looks and whatever small pieces of information BioWare released. In other words, no actual writing, characterization, dialogue, or conflicts in the game.

 

Hardly any better, I'd say.
 

In any case, I didn't declare anything as a fact, I simply admitted that I was considering the possibility. So you should cool it.

[katerinafm]

Not really. I found his romance extremely nice and sweet, and not at all 'full of humor' like you've said and others have also said. Just because he is blunt at some points and has a funny 'getting caught' scene doesn't mean his other romantic scenes are invalid. Also for your points:

 

1. He is not unaccustomed to being in a romantic relationship like how Isabela and Zevran were scared of being in one. He never expresses fear of being in a relationship with the inquisitor, it just starts off differently because the qun has made him not think of a romantic relationship as the default when approaching someone he is attracted to and has sex with. Despite that he cares for the inquisitor greatly, and that is obvious from how they approach them and how they talk to them about sex and outside of it.

2. Bull is not a fanatic of the qun, and that is obvious from his personal quest and throughout his dialogue. He is intelligent and sees the good and problematic points. He knows that it's not the qunari inquisitor's fault for being Vasoth. They were born outside the qun, so they are not Tal-Vasoth (qunari that were born into the qun but abandoned it).

3. That would only probably happen if you picked the qunari over his chargers (and that's extremely problematic from a romance standpoint, because you're basically pushing him towards him eventually breaking up with you to follow the qun fully). If he becomes Tal-Vasoth he can't really go back.

 

It looks to me like you're just looking for a different romance?

[AresKeith]

Which was before the game actually came out. And would therefore mean based solely upon how he looks and whatever small pieces of information BioWare released. In other words, no actual writing, characterization, dialogue, or conflicts in the game.

 

Hardly any better, I'd say.
 

In any case, I didn't declare anything as a fact, I simply admitted that I was considering the possibility. So you should cool it.

 

Considering you went into the Iron Bull thread and quickly judged them over a joke....

[veeia]

I wonder where you're getting that impression from? He has a solid fanbase, but the overall impressions I get from internet sites (this one and others) puts Solas, Cullen, Dorian, and Cassandra as the most popular. 

 

There are certainly areas that could be explored more, especially with Adaar, but you could say that for any romance. They all feel like they'd benefit from more content, or exploring different conflicts/commonalities based on different backgrounds. His may not be the right flavor for you, but it's a solid one imo. Playing through it right now and enjoying it a lot. Agreed with katerinafm's breakdown of your points. 

[Heimdall]

To be honest, Iron Bull's character never interested me much. I was expecting to enjoy him, but instead he fell flat and I couldn't get myself invested enough to try the romance. It's not that he was a terrible character, but nothing about him really interested me.

[Eliastion]

I must say OP's problems with IB romance are close to my heart too, though I never wanted to "ride the bull". I really looked forward, however, to trying a mage (elven apostate at that!) romance with Cassandra who supposedly hates mages. I can't remember even a passing mention of the subject of him being a mage...

What I do remember are her comments in Temple of Mythal where she wondered how could elves put so much effort into "this nonsense" (a.k.a. their religion) and frowned upon the idea of performing a ritual to appease an elven god... you know, one of those her lover reveres if not outright worships...

And there is absolutely no way to confront her about it or comment on it.

[congokong]

There are certainly areas that could be explored more, especially with Adaar, but you could say that for any romance. They all feel like they'd benefit from more content, or exploring different conflicts/commonalities based on different backgrounds. His may not be the right flavor for you, but it's a solid one imo. Playing through it right now and enjoying it a lot. Agreed with katerinafm's breakdown of your points. 

There's a difference between "benefitting from more content" and skipping potential plots that should be addressed entirely.

 

Not really. I found his romance extremely nice and sweet, and not at all 'full of humor' like you've said and others have also said. Just because he is blunt at some points and has a funny 'getting caught' scene doesn't mean his other romantic scenes are invalid. Also for your points:

 

1. He is not unaccustomed to being in a romantic relationship like how Isabela and Zevran were scared of being in one. He never expresses fear of being in a relationship with the inquisitor, it just starts off differently because the qun has made him not think of a romantic relationship as the default when approaching someone he is attracted to and has sex with. Despite that he cares for the inquisitor greatly, and that is obvious from how they approach them and how they talk to them about sex and outside of it.

2. Bull is not a fanatic of the qun, and that is obvious from his personal quest and throughout his dialogue. He is intelligent and sees the good and problematic points. He knows that it's not the qunari inquisitor's fault for being Vasoth. They were born outside the qun, so they are not Tal-Vasoth (qunari that were born into the qun but abandoned it).

3. That would only probably happen if you picked the qunari over his chargers (and that's extremely problematic from a romance standpoint, because you're basically pushing him towards him eventually breaking up with you to follow the qun fully). If he becomes Tal-Vasoth he can't really go back.

 

It looks to me like you're just looking for a different romance?

1. Yes, he just jumps into it without issue. That comes across as lazy writing.

2. I already stated he wasn't devout.

3. I did choose the qunari over the chargers. Addressing this changes nothing I've already said.

[congokong]

I must say OP's problems with IB romance are close to my heart too, though I never wanted to "ride the bull". I really looked forward, however, to trying a mage (elven apostate at that!) romance with Cassandra who supposedly hates mages. I can't remember even a passing mention of the subject of him being a mage...

What I do remember are her comments in Temple of Mythal where she wondered how could elves put so much effort into "this nonsense" (a.k.a. their religion) and frowned upon the idea of performing a ritual to appease an elven god... you know, one of those her lover reveres if not outright worships...

And there is absolutely no way to confront her about it or comment on it.

Yeah, I've heard complaints about how limited the Dalish inquisitor's options are in the Temple of Mythal regarding such things. There's also their relative ignorance on the elven gods.

[Eliastion]

Yeah, I've heard complaints about how limited the Dalish inquisitor's options are in the Temple of Mythal regarding such things. There's also their relative ignorance on the elven gods.

I think that ignorance was confirmed to be a bug... though I'm not sure. Either way, this is somewhat of-topic, so let's drop the issue  

[CuriousArtemis]

Because some fans like the thing and some fans don't like the thing? I honestly don't know why people ask this question. Cullen fans used to get this all the time... "Why do so many people like Cullen?" Because they do. 

 

These types of threads are usually thin disguises for what OP really wants to do: complain about the thing.

[stop_him]

Different strokes for different folks. People who like IB are going to focus more on the positive than the negative, and interpret his character differently. I have ZERO interest in romancing him. When I do, he will be last. However, it is not as though I cannot imagine what others might see in him. Just not too thrilled to romance him with any Inq of mine. Also not a fan of the male qunari art and form in this game. Blech.

[katerinafm]

There's a difference between "benefitting from more content" and skipping potential plots that should be addressed entirely.

 

1. Yes, he just jumps into it without issue. That comes across as lazy writing.

2. I already stated he wasn't devout.

3. I did choose the qunari over the chargers. Addressing this changes nothing I've already said.

 

1. While the romances are a thing in the game, they can't have lengthy scenes to show the whole romance in its entirety. You have to fill in the blanks in between the cutscenes. He doesn't just 'jump into it without issue', as he cares about the inquisitor, and accepts the token of affection from them (which is a qunari custom they told them about, which would mean he is more familiar with it). Also a note: he calls the inquisitor kadan BEFORE being presented with the gift. He casually calls the inquisitor that when they're drunk after the first dragon fight, and you don't get to ask what it means until he calls you that again once you present the gift. That hints that he cares about you before you tell him to be together properly. He is playing it cool because he is waiting for you to make a move to make this more serious.

 

Like I mentioned before, it just looks like you were looking for something different in the romance that you just didn't get. That's fine, but you not liking it doesn't mean you need to somehow declare his romance 'lazy writing' and invalid for everyone else that loved it. You are talking about 'missed opportunities' where the writer just went in a different direction. Just find a romance you are happier with. I mean, I hated Blackwall's romance, but I'm not going and telling his fans that his arc was 'wrong' because it didn't go the way I wanted it to. It just wasn't my thing.

[congokong]

1. While the romances are a thing in the game, they can't have lengthy scenes to show the whole romance in its entirety. You have to fill in the blanks in between the cutscenes. He doesn't just 'jump into it without issue', as he cares about the inquisitor, and accepts the token of affection from them (which is a qunari custom they told them about, which would mean he is more familiar with it). Also a note: he calls the inquisitor kadan BEFORE being presented with the gift. He casually calls the inquisitor that when they're drunk after the first dragon fight, and you don't get to ask what it means until he calls you that again once you present the gift. That hints that he cares about you before you told him to be together properly. He is playing it cool because he is waiting for you to make a move to make this more serious.

 

Like I mentioned before, it just looks like you were looking for something different in the romance that you just didn't get. That's fine, but you not liking it doesn't mean you need to somehow declare his romance 'lazy writing' and invalid for everyone else that loved it. You are talking about 'missed opportunities' where the writer just went in a different direction. Just find a romance you are happier with. I mean, I hated Blackwall's romance, but I'm not going and telling his fans that his arc was 'wrong' because it didn't go the way I wanted it to. It just wasn't my thing.

I disagree. I've given evidence for lazy writing that you've dismissed with "they can't have lengthy scenes" and "different directions," but that's BS. If Iron Bull can just embrace a romance for the first time in his life after years of casual sex without issue, fine. Address it though. Have one of them remark on it and why. It's just ignored. The same weak writing would apply for example if you couldn't address to Cullen the issue of the Inquisitor being a mage given his background in Cullen's romance. Cullen's romance also lets you ask what their future holds.

[congokong]

Different strokes for different folks. People who like IB are going to focus more on the positive than the negative, and interpret his character differently. I have ZERO interest in romancing him. When I do, he will be last. However, it is not as though I cannot imagine what others might see in him. Just not too thrilled to romance him with any Inq of mine. Also not a fan of the male qunari art and form in this game. Blech.

I do like Iron Bull. If I didn't I wouldn't have romanced him. I just feel his romance sucks.

[Sui Causa]

Patrick Weekes has already discussed the process of writing character arc's and quests. Things like, he only had literally one cut scene to make the player like the Chargers enough to not execute them for the Qunari alliance. That was all he was allowed. You can say declare lazy writing all you like, it doesn't change reality. All character romances and interactions are limited based on screen time and budget constraints or whatever it was that made the developers decide how many scenes each character would get before you got back out into the world to do Fetch Quest #2829712.

 

Would I like to see more? Absolutely. Will we get it? Not likely. Is there a solution? Write some fanfiction, use your imagination. That's what head cannon is for. If you want Iron Bull to have an issue with your Tal-Vashoth mage Inquisitor, then write about it and do it the way you want it done since you think Patrick Weekes didn't do a good enough job.

 

For me? I'm just glad that they were willing to give him the type of romance they did. A very nice effort in video games that risks offending people's delicate sensibilities, but they still did it and it was great. It might not be perfect, but Iron Bull is my favorite character and romance.

[katerinafm]

I disagree. I've given evidence for lazy writing that you've dismissed with "they can't have lengthy scenes" and "different directions," but that's BS. If Iron Bull can just embrace a romance for the first time in his life after years of casual sex without issue, fine. Address it though. Have one of them remark on it and why. It's just ignored. The same weak writing would apply for example if you couldn't address to Cullen the issue of being the Inquisitor being a mage given his background in his romance.

 

 

I just feel his romance sucks.

 

Why don't we help Cullen with his recovery from lyrium? Why do we only get a passing mention of him being in pain and it's never brought up again? Why don't we get a scene about the inquisitor asking them how they're doing periodically since his withdrawal affects should still be going on throughout the game? What about if he starts taking lyrium again?

Why does the inquisitor go back to being lovey dovey with Blackwall after the truth is revealed? Why isn't there another scene with them talking in length about what it means for them when they get back together?

Why doesn't the inquisitor try to convince Dorian to stay after he says he's going back to Tevinter after he mentions it? Why isn't there another scene about that and the inquisitor just accepts it in the end?

 

All valid points, but what I'm trying to show is that Iron Bull's romance and your lazy writing 'evidence' could be applied to all of these (and I'm guessing other points in the other romances but I haven't given them a go to see). You can't have EVERY little detail you want in a game that is meant to primarily be played for other stuff, like you know, the overall story/combat, etc. You felt his romance sucked. That's your personal opinion. It doesn't mean that his romance sucks in general.

[congokong]

Patrick Weekes has already discussed the process of writing character arc's and quests. Things like, he only had literally one cut scene to make the player like the Chargers enough to not execute them for the Qunari alliance. That was all he was allowed. You can say declare lazy writing all you like, it doesn't change reality. All character romances and interactions are limited based on screen time and budget constraints or whatever it was that made the developers decide how many scenes each character would get before you got back out into the world to do Fetch Quest #2829712.

 

Would I like to see more? Absolutely. Will we get it? Not likely. Is there a solution? Write some fanfiction, use your imagination. That's what head cannon is for. If you want Iron Bull to have an issue with your Tal-Vashoth mage Inquisitor, then write about it and do it the way you want it done since you think Patrick Weekes didn't do a good enough job.

 

For me? I'm just glad that they were willing to give him the type of romance they did. A very nice effort in video games that risks offending people's delicate sensibilities, but they still did it and it was great. It might not be perfect, but Iron Bull is my favorite character and romance.

The budget reasons why his romance sucks are irrelevant to me: the player. "This is poor writing but looking behind the curtain I realize they just didn't have the finances to make this better so now I'm fine with it" is ludicrous.

 

And no, I'm not writing Iron Bull fanfiction to make his romance decent.

[veeia]

Have you played his romance? Because I really feel like....that is...addressed...in it...Look, IB isn't going to fall all over you with his vulnerability or confusion, he isn't that kind of guy in the first place, and he's really not going to be that kind of guy specifically to Quizzie, because everyone else is doing that to Quizzie, and he doesn't want to be that for them. But to me it feels obvious that Iron Bull is trying to make it serious, and he's not quite exactly sure how to do that, but he's going about it confidently as usual, because that's who he is, and he's still taken aback when you declare yourself together in front of everyone. He's not afraid to be with you, it doesn't frighten him, it's a bit alien, but he enjoys it, and he enjoys learning that he enjoys it, but it's not the earthshattering passionate revelation of a ripped shirt romance novel. I'm kind of glad it went that way, tbh, because one of the first flirts in his romance is liek SO YOU'VE NEVER KNOWN TRUE PASSION or wev, and imo, it'd be a much less interesting romance if that was the way they went entirely. 

 

It's a more subtle thread than asking Cullen if he'd destroy you if you got possessed right after you bang (lol see I have problems with that arc, a lot of it feels too lampshading to me, without enough depth, but to each their own), but its there. 

[congokong]

Why don't we help Cullen with his recovery from lyrium? Why do we only get a passing mention of him being in pain and it's never brought up again? Why don't we get a scene about the inquisitor asking them how they're doing periodically since his withdrawal affects should still be going on throughout the game? What about if he starts taking lyrium again?

Why does the inquisitor go back to being lovey dovey with Blackwall after the truth is revealed? Why isn't there another scene with them talking in length about what it means for them when they get back together?

Why doesn't the inquisitor try to convince Dorian to stay after he says he's going back to Tevinter after he mentions it? Why isn't there another scene about that and the inquisitor just accepts it in the end?

 

All valid points, but what I'm trying to show is that Iron Bull's romance and your lazy writing 'evidence' could be applied to all of these (and I'm guessing other points in the other romances but I haven't given them a go to see). You can't have EVERY little detail you want in a game that is meant to primarily be played for other stuff, like you know, the overall story/combat, etc. You felt his romance sucked. That's your personal opinion. It doesn't mean that his romance sucks in general.

No, you're confusing excessive details/extensions with general omission altogether.

[katerinafm]

No, you're confusing excessive details/extensions with general omission altogether.

 

...Bruh, just play another romance and let it go. Gosh.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The budget reasons why his romance sucks are irrelevant to me: the player. "This is poor writing but looking behind the curtain I realize they just didn't have the finances to make this better so now I'm fine with it" is ludicrous.

 

And no, I'm not writing Iron Bull fanfiction to make his romance decent.

They are relevant since it is the cause of you thinking the romance sucks. If there was more budget devoted to the romance, there would be more content and thus your opinion could be affected. 

[Qun00]

Why don't we help Cullen with his recovery from lyrium? Why do we only get a passing mention of him being in pain and it's never brought up again? Why don't we get a scene about the inquisitor asking them how they're doing periodically since his withdrawal affects should still be going on throughout the game? What about if he starts taking lyrium again?
Why does the inquisitor go back to being lovey dovey with Blackwall after the truth is revealed? Why isn't there another scene with them talking in length about what it means for them when they get back together?
Why doesn't the inquisitor try to convince Dorian to stay after he says he's going back to Tevinter after he mentions it? Why isn't there another scene about that and the inquisitor just accepts it in the end?

All valid points, but what I'm trying to show is that Iron Bull's romance and your lazy writing 'evidence' could be applied to all of these (and I'm guessing other points in the other romances but I haven't given them a go to see). You can't have EVERY little detail you want in a game that is meant to primarily be played for other stuff, like you know, the overall story/combat, etc. You felt his romance sucked. That's your personal opinion. It doesn't mean that his romance sucks in general.

Precisely.

This is a demand that should be made for the game in general rather than dumping the responsability on this one character.