81 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

While it's certainly true that all BW games - and indeed the majority of cRPGs in general - do suffer from this flaw, it seems particularly egregious in DA:I, and I think it's mainly down to the scale of the game. In Orgins for example, while there was a lot of content not directly related to the main plot, the majority of it was stuff you would encounter while doing the main plot, and could complete without making a massive detour from said plot. There were a few areas that had nothing to do with the story, but then tended to be small and incidental. If you just do the main plot and the stuff you encounter while doing that plot, you'll experience the bulk of the game. In Inquisition, the majority of content is stuff you have to deliberately go out of you way, delieberately avoid the main plot, to not just complete, but to find in the first place. If you just do the main plot and the stuff you come across while doing it, you'll only experience a small portion of the game.
 
I suppose for me it really comes down to that old chestnut of "suspension of disbelief". I can suspend my disbelief when the warden takes a couple of hours out of saving the world to help some people he's encountered while trying to stop the blight. I can't suspend my disbelief that the Inquisitor would spend weeks exploring large parts of Ferelden and Orlais while supposedly trying to stop Cory.

But all of these areas offers something that aids in the MQ: resources, abilities, crafting upgrades and schematics, undermining oppositional plans, improving Inquisition strength, etc. There are many reasons to explore; the Player simply chooses which are weighty enough to examine.

[PhroXenGold]

But all of these areas offers something that aids in the MQ: resources, abilities, crafting upgrades and schematics, undermining oppositional plans, improving Inquisition strength, etc. There are many reasons to explore; the Player simply chooses which are weighty enough to examine.

 

But you don't have the time to do those things if you're actually following the main quest. There's no breaks. Theres always a major plot event that should demand your immediate attention, if you're actually playing in-character. The Inqusitor would not be off doing sidequests and exploration even if they offered some benefits when there's a major crisis going on. They would be solving the crisis. The fact that you can just delay the major plot events with no consequences while you go off exploring is a serious flaw with the storytelling.

[Il Divo]

But all of these areas offers something that aids in the MQ: resources, abilities, crafting upgrades and schematics, undermining oppositional plans, improving Inquisition strength, etc. There are many reasons to explore; the Player simply chooses which are weighty enough to examine.

 

I still wouldn't say that works as a justification. Conceptually, you should have the ability to direct your troops however you want. But watching Leliana collect less Deathroot in 20 minutes than it takes me to collect in 3 min is kinda laughable. So game mechanics for the win. 

 

This doesn't bother me too much, because I'm used to RPG side quests being non-sensical (ME1 being the worst Bioware offender by far), but DA:I still has much room to improve on that front. 

 

It's the same kind of foolishness that has the Grey Wardens on the front lines at Ostagar, which gets them all killed. Why is the super special secret Inquisitor running around in the Wilderness? Really, the only thing you should be doing is closing breaches, and that's because no one else has that ability. 

[Elhanan]

But you don't have the time to do those things if you're actually following the main quest. There's no breaks. Theres always a major plot event that should demand your immediate attention, if you're actually playing in-character. The Inqusitor would not be off doing sidequests and exploration even if they offered some benefits when there's a major crisis going on. They would be solving the crisis. The fact that you can just delay the major plot events with no consequences while you go off exploring is a serious flaw with the storytelling.

Not in my game. To acquire those quests, the Inquisition has to learn to amass the Power to tackle them. It is up to each Inquisitor to say when that enough Power is enough; one does not always need to leap with the minimal amt.

Plus, troops that have better gear, are aided in personal missions, are allowed greater input, have greater morale, etc tend to be better on the battlefield for the long haul.

Side-quests that have no determined merit may be skipped; same with areas, but it is the Inquisitor to make that determination, and I prefer the more methodical approach than the faster one.

[Elhanan]

I still wouldn't say that works as a justification. Conceptually, you should have the ability to direct your troops however you want. But watching Leliana collect less Deathroot in 20 minutes than it takes me to collect in 3 min is kinda laughable. So game mechanics for the win. 
 
This doesn't bother me too much, because I'm used to RPG side quests being non-sensical (ME1 being the worst Bioware offender by far), but DA:I still has much room to improve on that front. 
 
It's the same kind of foolishness that has the Grey Wardens on the front lines at Ostagar, which gets them all killed. Why is the super special secret Inquisitor running around in the Wilderness? Really, the only thing you should be doing is closing breaches, and that's because no one else has that ability.

In my game, Leliana never leaves unless I am with her. She does however assign troops to acquire specific goods, and while these are far less than what I could do myself, evidently I had greater tasks to perform, and they had none since I made the request.

And as noted, the Inquisitor apparently is far better at locating needed supplies, so he can gather and mark locations for later use at the proper stations all while exploring the terrain for both secrets and knowledge to use in battle. Several birds; one stone.

[PhroXenGold]

Not in my game. To acquire those quests, the Inquisition has to learn to amass the Power to tackle them. It is up to each Inquisitor to say when that enough Power is enough; one does not always need to leap with the minimal amt.

Plus, troops that have better gear, are aided in personal missions, are allowed greater input, have greater morale, etc tend to be better on the battlefield for the long haul.

Side-quests that have no determined merit may be skipped; same with areas, but it is the Inquisitor to make that determination, and I prefer the more methodical approach than the faster one.

 

The problem is that all of the main plot events are, in story terms, time limited. They're happening now. If the Inquistor doesn't go and resolve whatever is happeing immediately then, based on the story, he should lose. Game over. Of course, in game terms, this is completely overlooked in order to let you go explore. But story wise, there is simply no justification to do so.

[Elhanan]

The problem is that all of the main plot events are, in story terms, time limited. They're happening now. If the Inquistor doesn't go and resolve whatever is happeing immediately then, based on the story, he should lose. Game over. Of course, in game terms, this is completely overlooked in order to let you go explore. But story wise, there is simply no justification to do so.

Again, not in my game, The opposition leaves plenty of information of things that they are doing to improve their forces. It is up to the Inquisitor to decide to attack earlier, or decimate their plans; then attack. Red lyrium, enslavement, ancient devices, etc are all things that could be thwarted first before jumping to End Game. And while it may not be required or desired for one Player does not undermine the worth of such for another.

[Il Divo]

In my game, Leliana never leaves unless I am with her. She does however assign troops to acquire specific goods, and while these are far less than what I could do myself, evidently I had greater tasks to perform, and they had none since I made the request.

 

 

Would you have preferred I said "Leliana's Scouts"? The point is the stupidity of the Inquisitor achieving more in five minutes of general exploration than a retinue of scouts can achieve in 18 minutes of mission time.  

 

And as noted, the Inquisitor apparently is far better at locating needed supplies, so he can gather and mark locations for later use at the proper stations all while exploring the terrain for both secrets and knowledge to use in battle. Several birds; one stone. 

 

 

Yep, that makes perfect sense. We're going to make our leader and figure head vulnerable to assassination attempts and death by demon while he goes off looking for weapon schematics. 

 

 

[PhroXenGold]

Again, not in my game, The opposition leaves plenty of information of things that they are doing to improve their forces. It is up to the Inquisitor to decide to attack earlier, or decimate their plans; then attack. Red lyrium, enslavement, ancient devices, etc are all things that could be thwarted first before jumping to End Game. And while it may not be required or desired for one Player does not undermine the worth of such for another.

 

But you don't have time to do any of those things. Look at the plot missions. Story wise, they're not things that happen because of you deciding to go there, with the expection of In your Heart... - and even then, Cory's army would just turn up before you close the breach if you waited. They're governed by the actions of others. If you don't go and get the mages/templars on your side ASAP, there won't be any left to get on your side. If you don't go and save Celene at the peace conference she'll die and Cory will win. If you don't go to stop the ritual ASAP, the Wardens will be bound by blood magic. And so on. If the world actually behaved in a way that matched the story, instead of freezing time between main plot events until the player is ready to initiate events that should be initiated by others, you wouldn't be able to go and gather resources, increase your power, disrupts Cory's lesser plans and so on.

[Elhanan]

Would you have preferred I said "Leliana's Scouts"? The point is the stupidity of the Inquisitor achieving more in five minutes of general exploration than a retinue of scouts can achieve in 18 minutes of mission time.   
 
Yep, that makes perfect sense. We're going to make our leader and figure head vulnerable to assassination attempts and death by demon while he goes off looking for weapon schematics.

Actually, I expect it is more like Leliana assigns scouts, which assign troops, which assign trainees. Then because it deals with politics, subterfuge and secrets, or simply paying local taxes, we get what is left. Plus, there was evidently nothing better for them to do.

As for schematics, entire battles and wars have been won over better designs, or ruining the enemies. Again, while another Inquisitor may not care a whit about such things does not invalidate the worth to another in their game.

[Elhanan]

But you don't have time to do any of those things. Look at the plot missions. Story wise, they're not things that happen because of you deciding to go there, with the expection of In your Heart... - and even then, Cory's army would just turn up before you close the breach if you waited. They're governed by the actions of others. If you don't go and get the mages/templars on your side ASAP, there won't be any left to get on your side. If you don't go and save Celene at the peace conference she'll die and Cory will win. If you don't go to stop the ritual ASAP, the Wardens will be bound by blood magic. And so on. If the world actually behaved in a way that matched the story, instead of freezing time between main plot events until the player is ready to initiate events that should be initiated by others, you wouldn't be able to go and gather resources, increase your power, disrupts Cory's lesser plans and so on.

The only way this is known is by actually leaving earlier, or by use of meta-game info. If the former works, then by default the rest was not required. By avoiding the latter, one may RP the additional materials as they see as a priority, and use the added resources to achieve the same ends.

Simply because something works for one Player does not make it best for all. I enjoy options, and will likely not make completionist campaigns every time, because that works for me. But insisting that the direct path is the proper way is somewhat askew.

[Il Divo]

Actually, I expect it is more like Leliana assigns scouts, which assign troops, which assign trainees. Then because it deals with politics, subterfuge and secrets, or simply paying local taxes, we get what is left. Plus, there was evidently nothing better for them to do.

 

 

Well, it's good to know that being the leader of the Inquisition means that I don't have the ability to delegate the importance of such tasks. Again, makes total sense that I can't tell her to give certain things higher priority. 

 

As for schematics, entire battles and wars have been won over better designs, or ruining the enemies. Again, while another Inquisitor may not care a whit about such things does not invalidate the worth to another in their game.

 

 

If the premise of your story involves you leading a political/military organization to save the world from chaos and demon invasion, it's not a good defense to point to personal weapon schematics that have no relevance outside of your direct ability to kill things. 

 

It's like saying that while at war we should send the President of the United States digging for mineral deposits and oil reserves, with a small four man party. Why would this strike anybody as remotely sensible? 

[PhroXenGold]

The only way this is known is by actually leaving earlier, or by use of meta-game info. If the former works, then by default the rest was not required. By avoiding the latter, one may RP the additional materials as they see as a priority, and use the added resources to achieve the same ends.

Simply because something works for one Player does not make it best for all. I enjoy options, and will likely not make completionist campaigns every time, because that works for me. But insisting that the direct path is the proper way is somewhat askew.

 

It's not meta knowledge. On the contrary, the only justification you can have for not doing the main plot ASAP is meta knowledge - you, as the player, know there's absolutely no drawback to not doing it immediately. Your character doesn't.

[Elhanan]

Well, it's good to know that being the leader of the Inquisition means that I don't have the ability to delegate the importance of such tasks. Again, makes total sense that I can't tell her to give certain things higher priority.  
 
If the premise of your story involves you leading a political/military organization to save the world from chaos and demon invasion, it's not a good defense to point to personal weapon schematics that have no relevance outside of your direct ability to kill things. 
 
It's like saying that while at war we should send the President of the United States digging for mineral deposits and oil reserves, with a small four man party. Why would this strike anybody as remotely sensible?

Higher priority are evidently missions already completed or underway, or these are simply the only things available on the table.

Better weaponry and armor leads to a healthier Inquisitor, and a healthier leader wins more often than a dead one; Necromancers and Reavers possibly excluded.

Guess this is why presidents go to hand-shaking stops, eateries, places of business and commerce, foreign embassies, and photo=ops for PR. Now while modern leaders may not select these sites by themselves, do not see them doing battle by themselves either.

[Elhanan]

It's not meta knowledge. On the contrary, the only justification you can have for not doing the main plot ASAP is meta knowledge - you, as the player, know there's absolutely no drawback to not doing it immediately. Your character doesn't.

Again, I prefer to optimize my leader and team before completing the MQ. It is not the correct method for anyone other than myself, but is certainly not the incorrect method either. No meta-game knowledge was required; had plenty of in game reasons to expect that the opposition was entrenched in doing much of the same things.

[Il Divo]

Better weaponry and armor leads to a healthier Inquisitor, and a healthier leader wins more often than a dead one; Necromancers and Reavers possibly excluded.

 

 

And all stuff that can be completed by any number of common soldiers. Again, why are we sacrificing our only guy who can close Rifts to death via arrow by common bandit? This is laughable reasoning. 

 

Guess this is why presidents go to hand-shaking stops, eateries, places of business and commerce, foreign embassies, and photo=ops for PR. Now while modern leaders may not select these sites by themselves, do not see them doing battle by themselves either. 

 

 

And it's also because their role is deemed too critical to waste on lesser activities. When you're in charge, your focus is delegation, to a huge extent. The Inquisitor is unique in that his mark means that he's going to come into combat situations at some point, but that's not an endorsement of "Let's just go frolicking in the fields". It's the same stupidity that has us wasting Grey Wardens on the front lines. 

 

The less of any resource you possess, the more critical that resource is. 

[Elhanan]

And all stuff that can be completed by any number of common soldiers. Again, why are we sacrificing our only guy who can close Rifts to death via arrow by common bandit? This is laughable reasoning.  
 
And it's also because their role is deemed too critical to waste on lesser activities. When you're in charge, your focus is delegation, to a huge extent. The Inquisitor is unique in that his mark means that he's going to come into combat situations at some point, but that's not an endorsement of "Let's just go frolicking in the fields". It's the same stupidity that has us wasting Grey Wardens on the front lines. 
 
The less of any resource you possess, the more critical that resource is.

If that lowly sniper cannot be passed, then things coming from the rifts may be more problematic than one perceives.

Agreed; one does need to delegate, which is why my Inq does not harvest ore; simply marks the areas found to be accessed later by teams. And it was the plan of a flawed General that placed all the Wardens in that position; the King simply wished to join them, which was his bad.

Depends on the resource.

[MaxQuartiroli]

I still wouldn't say that works as a justification. Conceptually, you should have the ability to direct your troops however you want. But watching Leliana collect less Deathroot in 20 minutes than it takes me to collect in 3 min is kinda laughable. So game mechanics for the win. 

 

This doesn't bother me too much, because I'm used to RPG side quests being non-sensical (ME1 being the worst Bioware offender by far), but DA:I still has much room to improve on that front. 

 

It's the same kind of foolishness that has the Grey Wardens on the front lines at Ostagar, which gets them all killed. Why is the super special secret Inquisitor running around in the Wilderness? Really, the only thing you should be doing is closing breaches, and that's because no one else has that ability. 

 

If you think like that then we could say that at least 90% of side-quests in every game is non sensical.

 

- I am Commander Shepard, the first human spectre and the only one who can stop Saren, why should I risk to be killed by a Trasher Maw while I am searching for minerals on a remote planet instead of hurry to the Conduit?

 

- I am the Warden, the only one who can kill the Archdemon and stop the Blight, why should I risk my life in a Back Alley packed of criminals or in an abandoned orphanage full of demons?

 

Unless you want a game which is only few hours long, or unless you want a game where you have a super-hero which you can use only against bosses and inside main quests while you play the remaining parts of the game with other characters I suppose that you'll always have to deal with these illogical tasks that a leader should not really take because it is not worth to risk his life for them..

[Sidney]

The problem is that all of the main plot events are, in story terms, time limited. They're happening now. If the Inquistor doesn't go and resolve whatever is happeing immediately then, based on the story, he should lose. Game over. Of course, in game terms, this is completely overlooked in order to let you go explore. But story wise, there is simply no justification to do so.

Using that logic really no side quest ever makes sense. Even in the DAO's "it is along the way" something like searching about for Topsiders Honor is "too much time" when the Blight is on the March let alone a host of other things like saving refugees.

It is jarring story and narrative-wise that it happens and it feels really silly if you sit and ponder on it too long but we all know games are a massive compromise between reality and fun.

[Bioware-Critic]

But didn't you know that killing rams is an essential part of saving the world from utter destruction?

...

And on that note, I just got a picture in my head of Allied troops running around doing fetch quests...

 

... rofl !!!

 

 

Hey there again I have to write this damn posting again now ... because the mod deleted it for "profanity" that "might have slipped" the word-filter ...

Well ...    I should not try that, I guess

(When i write too much I always get out the "foul language"   Stupid rules! Well, I am just honest ... okay !?!)

 

But I still think your posting is very funny and will leave it at reacting to that this time around ...

 

Take care!

[luism]

I just ran through it on the xbone for my nightmare trophy. I kind of Rushed but didnt try to speed through it, sided with the mages not Templars. Did a couple of companion quests and just enough side quests to finish the game with. Took me 36 hours, not too bad I guess.

[Elhanan]

I just ran through it on the xbone for my nightmare trophy. I kind of Rushed but didnt try to speed through it, sided with the mages not Templars. Did a couple of companion quests and just enough side quests to finish the game with. Took me 36 hours, not too bad I guess.

Exactly. My initial campaign lasted 250+ hrs, but very little was left unexplored for later sessions. Both are valid approaches for gameplay; both can work for the Players choosing them. The faster method allows for more unexplored replay value, if that appeals to that Player.

[Bioware-Critic]

I just ran through it on the xbone for my nightmare trophy. I kind of Rushed but didnt try to speed through it, sided with the mages not Templars. Did a couple of companion quests and just enough side quests to finish the game with. Took me 36 hours, not too bad I guess.

well that is about the time span you need to finish ME3. When I play Origins I need 55 hours at the minimum and I prefer for every RPG I play to play for a lot longer. Did you like your nightmare-run ? You did it for a trophy?

[Cheviot]

The 100 hours on my first playthrough and my 50 or so hours of my current Nightmare run suggest the campaign is not that short at all.

 

(For comparison, my first DAO playthrough was around 70 hours, and my second around 40)

[luism]

well that is about the time span you need to finish ME3. When I play Origins I need 55 hours at the minimum and I prefer for every RPG I play to play for a lot longer. Did you like your nightmare-run ? You did it for a trophy?

Yeah lol I wanted the trophies on the xbone. I have the game on the xbone mostly to play multiplayer with a few of my cousins in other states.

I actually enjoyed the nightmare run cause my elf inquisitor looked almost exactly like solas so it was funny. There wasn't that many borin times besides wicked eyes and wicked hearts which I had to do in 5 separate saves because that quest is so god awful I'd fall asleep walking around pinging and spamming the middle dialogue.

In origins I always do the completion play through. I played through this game a few times and never have. The side quests like collecting shards and crap are just too tedious and boring.

I find this game to be pretty fun and challenging up until skyhold where it begins to take a nose dive plummet all the way to its anti climax the fight with coryotaprius.