Personally, I'd recommend the OP never play BG2, because she'd never be able to play Origins again. The drop from BG2 -> DA:O is far greater than any of the whats happened since...
The only reason I can't agree with this is that BG2 and DAO are pretty apples and oranges. Mainly because the groundwork is so different - BG2 is 2e D&D, while DAO is what it is.
Comparing DAO and DAI is more valid, because they're supposedly in the same series.
BG2 to NWN was worse for me, honestly.
And how would anyone else?. that's a weak way of thinking at any rate."I don't feel like stepping up, so i'll let someone else take care of it" and that chain continues till everyone is dead, wonderful. As i said: "if you want something done right" that's really all i need to think about to make it reasonable. Why leave it to someone else and risk losing everything?.
And that's great if you want to play that type of character. Origins lets you. Inquisition lets you. Inquisition also lets you play OTHER characters that don't think that way. Origins relies on you being that selfless.
Nobody is arguing that your way of thinking is wrong. But its a role playing game, and it should allow you to roleplay characters with different ways of thinking, not just your "best" way.
The only reason I can't agree with this is that BG2 and DAO are pretty apples and oranges. Mainly because the groundwork is so different - BG2 is 2e D&D, while DAO is what it is.
Comparing DAO and DAI is more valid, because they're supposedly in the same series.
BG2 to NWN was worse for me, honestly.
Mechanically, sure. But on the things that really matter in an RPG - story, characters etc. - they're easy to compare (especially as DA:O was presented as the spiritual sequel to BG2), and BG2 utterly blows Origins out of the water.
I agree with you on NWN though. Easily Bioware's worst game - the toolkit was great, and modders made so fantastic content, but out of the box it was dire.
Mechanically, sure. But on the things that really matter in an RPG - story, characters etc. - they're easy to compare (especially as DA:O was presented as the spiritual sequel to BG2), and BG2 utterly blows Origins out of the water.
I agree with you on NWN though. Easily Bioware's worst game - the toolkit was great, and modders made so fantastic content, but out of the box it was dire.
To be fair, if I remember correctly that's more or less what it was marketed as. A toolkit with a sample campaign. I did enjoy the Hordes of the Underdark though.
Right though, for my money BG2 is leader of the pack, even without adjusting for time.
you should play origins, so you know how a quality game actually plays, compared to this steaming pile.
And that's great if you want to play that type of character. Origins lets you. Inquisition lets you. Inquisition also lets you play OTHER characters that don't think that way. Origins relies on you being that selfless.
Nobody is arguing that your way of thinking is wrong. But its a role playing game, and it should allow you to roleplay characters with different ways of thinking, not just your "best" way.
Oh, selfless?. is that why i am given the opportunity to sacrifice multiple slave pens of elves in order to enhance my parameters?, because i am selfless?.
Nah, bro. The game assumes you are driven, not selfless.
And that's great if you want to play that type of character. Origins lets you. Inquisition lets you. Inquisition also lets you play OTHER characters that don't think that way. Origins relies on you being that selfless.
Nobody is arguing that your way of thinking is wrong. But its a role playing game, and it should allow you to roleplay characters with different ways of thinking, not just your "best" way.
Challenge! I challenge that right there!
If strictly talking about the end game, the dark ritual is your get out of jail free card. There are also plenty of instances in which your character in DAO can act selfish in manners too.
Inquisition and Origins are similar in that you always have to deal with the end game in some way. I'd argue Inquisition requires you to be selfless in the end. You always have to repair that hole in the sky. You always had to stop the blight in DAO but you could have sex to get out of your obligation, or have someone die for you.
I think the point here with the Warden/Inquisitor is that they are both forced along a particular story path. You have to deal with the Blight and you have to deal with the Rift and Corypheus. The difference is that with the Inquisitor, their personal motivations can't be indulged. If they don't follow this path, either the Mark or Corypheus will kill them. Because of this, the only choice that makes sense for them is to play hero. This actually winds up giving the player a kind of freedom in terms of their character's personality.
No wait hear me out!
*Ahem* Yes. The lack of choice means that your character can feel however they want about events, but still have a compelling reason not to just run away, or do anything else that would spoil the narrative.
With the Warden however, they could conceivably choose to just run away, maybe even joining Hawke in Kirkwall. Sure there are plenty of reasons to stay as well, but there isn't anything to keep them from not getting involved. Alistair's a Grey Warden, and more experienced to boot (albeit by very little). Let him take care of it.
*Oh and just for the record, I had alot of trouble taking this argument seriously when it first occurred to me. I know that it is... counterinuitive at best, but the more I've thought about it the more reasonable it seems.
The blight has the same amount of chance of killing the Warden too. Also the warden can still hate their situation too, they don't have to like joining the blood brigade, but they have a responsibility at the same time. The only reason why the Warden is alive at all is due to Flemeth 1: saving the warden and Alistair and 2: while in the wilds she shielded him/her from detection since you are a new warden. When you reach Lothering you see the effect that this blight is having on the people and you discuss how there is no way to get outside help in time to prevent whole sale slaughter (You still don't but it's no where near as bad). Also when you reach Lothering you are told about the bounties put out on wardens and how they supposedly "betrayed and killed" Calin. At that point you also have a target painted on your back no matter where you go. At this point the only debate is between who should lead the group and it is deferred to you, the warden, because Alistair is afraid to. So at this point you seem to be in a damned it you do, damned if you don't situation, but if you try to use the treaties you might have a chance to save thousands of lives. I never once saw how it was possible to just walk away. You become a hero, because no one else can fill the role since Alistair abdicated the role. He dropped it on your shoulders to be the one. To flee would doom thousands to death. I'm not sure about you, but that's not something I could ever live with and very much so does not make a "Mary Sue"
Exactly this.
To everyone saying the warden was to only one who could save Feraldan, no. There is nothing to suggest that at that point in the game. There's no reason not to think normal soldiers couldn't do it at Ostagar. I also never felt betrayed by Lohgain, because I didn't want to be a warden in the first place, I was forced into it, and had only even been one for several hours at that point. Even if you are the only one, I still don't believe most people would do it.
Whether or not the Inquisitor is heroic, depends on how you roleplay them. Someone is heroic if they are willing to put their life on the line to save other people. I played my inquisitor like that towards the end of the game, but only after she had time to grow into it. She started out with purely selfish reasons.
If you want to play a hero from the start of the game, that's your choice, but in origins, its your only choice. Inquisition gives you other options too, which is why its better.
Refer to my comments above this one for why it's all but spelled out why you can't leave. May I ask exactly how you felt when you found out Loghain wanted your blood and all wardens dead? And wether you wanted to be a warden or not doesn't change the fact that you are one. Also in Inquisition you pretty much are sacrificing yourself at Haven, there is no chance that you will survive it. You have to play the role of hero from the very beginning pretty much.
Oh, selfless?. is that why i am given the opportunity to sacrifice multiple slave pens of elves in order to enhance my parameters?, because i am selfless?.
Nah, bro. The game assumes you are driven, not selfless.
Challenge! I challenge that right there!
If strictly talking about the end game, the dark ritual is your get out of jail free card. There are also plenty of instances in which your character in DAO can act selfish in manners too.
Inquisition and Origins are similar in that you always have to deal with the end game in some way. I'd argue Inquisition requires you to be selfless in the end. You always have to repair that hole in the sky. You always had to stop the blight in DAO but you could have sex to get out of your obligation, or have someone die for you.
I'm talking about Ostagar after the wardens are killed. My only reasons to stick around were revenge against Lohgain for killing some people I had only knew for a few hours, or wanting to save Feraldan. Neither of those worked for me. Sure, you can do selfish things later, but that doesn't explain why my character would stay a warden after Ostagar.
My Inquisitor needed to destroy Cory because he was actively trying to kill her. So you can have selfish reasons all the way through the game.
... What?? Look you just said it right there. Cory was trying to kill her actively. What do you think happens if you ignore loghain? He is far more aggressive in killing you than cory is to the inquisitor.I'm talking about Ostagar after the wardens are killed. My only reasons to stick around were revenge against Lohgain for killing some people I had only knew for a few hours, or wanting to save Feraldan. Neither of those worked for me. Sure, you can do selfish things later, but that doesn't explain why my character would stay a warden after Ostagar.
My Inquisitor needed to destroy Cory because he was actively trying to kill her. So you can have selfish reasons all the way through the game.
Refer to my comments above this one for why it's all but spelled out why you can't leave. May I ask exactly how you felt when you found out Loghain wanted your blood and all wardens dead? And wether you wanted to be a warden or not doesn't change the fact that you are one. Also in Inquisition you pretty much are sacrificing yourself at Haven, there is no chance that you will survive it. You have to play the role of hero from the very beginning pretty much.
Not completely true. As we've seen with DA2 Anders, there's nothing actually requiring you to stick around, beyond ignoring the voices in your head. Everyone who knows (or cares) about your identity is limited to Morrigan, Alistair, Flemeth, and Loghain (possible) since there's no visible way to identify a Grey Warden, hence why Blackwall can hide his identity.
Even ignoring that, there's nothing saying you have to believe in saving Ferelden, even given your commitment to the Order. You watched an entire army murdered in a power grab, in addition to any/all Senior Wardens, and Alistair himself isn't 100% sure of himself, preferring to defer to you who was made a Warden barely a week earlier. Not to mention, you know (indirectly) that Celene did want to support Ferelden in this war and that Orlais does have Grey Wardens who might be more experienced/equipped to deal with this sort of thing.
Really, what you and Alistair decide to do could be considered highly questionable on the surface.
All that said, I still love DA:O.
Not completely true. As we've seen with DA2 Anders, there's nothing actually requiring you to stick around, beyond ignoring the voices in your head. Everyone who knows (or cares) about your identity is limited to Morrigan, Alistair, Flemeth, and Loghain (possible) since there's no visible way to identify a Grey Warden, hence why Blackwall can hide his identity.
Even ignoring that, there's nothing saying you have to believe in saving Ferelden, even given your commitment to the Order. You watched an entire army murdered in a power grab, in addition to any/all Senior Wardens, and Alistair himself isn't 100% sure of himself, preferring to defer to you who was made a Warden barely a week earlier. Not to mention, you know (indirectly) that Celene did want to support Ferelden in this war and that Orlais does have Grey Wardens who might be more experienced/equipped to deal with this sort of thing.
Really, what you and Alistair decide to do could be considered highly questionable on the surface.
All that said, I still love DA:O.
Did you read none of my explanation as to why you can't just skip town? Seriously, you move from Ostagar to the Kokari Wilds because you are saved by Flemeth, the only way to move from there is Lothering and by the time you get there and discuss it you know why you can't leave or skip out. They have a whole dialogue about how there is no contact with the Orlesian wardens and by the time they could do anything Ferelden would be a smoking ruin. Please look up at my former comments and read.
Also Anders isn't a poor debate point. Wardens seem to wander when there is no blight, however there very much is a blight happening 15 feet from you at all times in DAO. If there was an active blight Anders would fight it to. Your whole point here is mute.
Did you read none of my explanation as to why you can't just skip town? Seriously, you move from Ostagar to the Kokari Wilds because you are saved by Flemeth, the only way to move from there is Lothering and by the time you get there and discuss it you know why you can't leave or skip out. They have a whole dialogue about how there is no contact with the Orlesian wardens and by the time they could do anything Ferelden would be a smoking ruin. Please look up at my former comments and read.
I think I covered this. Why do I have to care about Ferelden being a smoking ruin? Far more has been lost to the Blight in the past. Your goal is to preserve Thedas, to the best of your ability, not any single nation. Ferelden itself has shown extreme hostility to any Warden efforts, not to mention it's highly questionable whether the Mages, Elves, etc would even care about ancient treaties that you possess.
And who has been missing contact with the Orlesian Wardens? Is it Ferelden (as a whole)? Given that Loghain wants nothing to do with them, that would make sense, even more of a reason why you have to reach them directly.
Really, you're only defense here is a commitment to saving Ferelden, which doesn't have to hold water.
To be fair, if I remember correctly that's more or less what it was marketed as. A toolkit with a sample campaign. I did enjoy the Hordes of the Underdark though.
Right though, for my money BG2 is leader of the pack, even without adjusting for time.
That is true, but even then, the "sample campaign" was bad. Really bad.
I think I covered this. Why do I have to care about Ferelden being a smoking ruin? Far more has been lost to the Blight in the past. Your goal is to preserve Thedas, to the best of your ability, not any single nation. Ferelden itself has shown extreme hostility to any Warden efforts, not to mention it's highly questionable whether the Mages, Elves, etc would even care about ancient treaties that you possess.
And who has been missing contact with the Orlesian Wardens? Is it Ferelden (as a whole)? Given that Loghain wants nothing to do with them, that would make sense, even more of a reason why you have to reach them directly.
Really, you're only defense here is a commitment to saving Ferelden, which doesn't have to hold water.
I think your missing the point -- You could be trying to save Ferelden from a smoldering pile, but you could also realize YOUR TRAPPED! Your going to be swarmed by darkspawn eventually. There is no real wiggle in this argument. The possibility of having Alistair kill the big bad guy in the end and sacrificing himself was always a possibility.
I suppose the entire map around you being swarmed with darkspawn as you progress in the story isn't a requirement? You could have fled to the free marches, or orlais but how would you imagine the world, Chantry or inquisition look if you had ignored the presence of darkspawn birthing on a nation level? No obligation other than we will die anyway.. To Dark spawn or loghain.. The first eventually..
Wardens have shown themselves willing to engage in extreme solutions to solve a problem. As I say above, there is nothing committing you to saving Ferelden specifically. As a Warden your commitment is to stopping the Blight as a whole from destroying Thedas.
If you feel that Ferelden is a lost cause, which there is justification for, you're really just wasting your time staying in the area. Loghain has some backing among the Nobles, has Anora as his daughter, wasted an entire army, and put out a hit on all Grey Wardens in Ferelden. Your "potential" army (as in not guaranteed) consists of Ancient Treaties which you're hoping each of these nations will honor.
Your resources consist of you and a single additional Grey Warden, who admits to wanting nothing to do with leadership. You yourself have only just been made a Grey Warden after watching all your Seniors murdered and are additionally aware that Orlais has an army and Senior Grey Wardens willing to help.
What about this says "We have to stay and help Ferelden" at least from a logistics point of view?
If your logic is that you have to fight because everyone will die otherwise, than the same argument could be made to every single person in Thedas. And yet the vast majority do nothing to try to stop the blight. Somebody has to save Thedas. No reason for the protagonist to assume it has to be them.
Lohgain would have no way to track you if you just left. Whilst the lady with a green glowy hand kinda stands out.
I think your missing the point -- You could be trying to save Ferelden from a smoldering pile, but you could also realize YOUR TRAPPED! Your going to be swarmed by darkspawn eventually. There is no real wiggle in this argument. The possibility of having Alistair kill the big bad guy in the end and sacrificing himself was always a possibility.
You mean I have no reason to try to find a way into Orlais? That's odd, I'm sure there's always methods of travel open.
I don't see what Alistair killing the BBEG has to do with it in the end. Outside of metagame knowledge, there's actually no direct reason to think that you yourself have to kill the Archdemon at least to start with. You don't even know that killing him with a Grey Warden is necessary.
Yeah, my logic is that you will die any other way. YOU CANNOT LEAVE Ferelden. Your trapped, you guys keep suggesting that you can leave Ferelden. Look at the map around you.. Hoards will always meet you at every angle you attempt to leave. Everyone in Ferelden is vulnerable to the dark spawn threat. Every single person...
I don't know how to explain this anymore.. aghhh..
The blight has the same amount of chance of killing the Warden too. Also the warden can still hate their situation too, they don't have to like joining the blood brigade, but they have a responsibility at the same time. The only reason why the Warden is alive at all is due to Flemeth 1: saving the warden and Alistair and 2: while in the wilds she shielded him/her from detection since you are a new warden. When you reach Lothering you see the effect that this blight is having on the people and you discuss how there is no way to get outside help in time to prevent whole sale slaughter (You still don't but it's no where near as bad). Also when you reach Lothering you are told about the bounties put out on wardens and how they supposedly "betrayed and killed" Calin. At that point you also have a target painted on your back no matter where you go. At this point the only debate is between who should lead the group and it is deferred to you, the warden, because Alistair is afraid to. So at this point you seem to be in a damned it you do, damned if you don't situation, but if you try to use the treaties you might have a chance to save thousands of lives. I never once saw how it was possible to just walk away. You become a hero, because no one else can fill the role since Alistair abdicated the role. He dropped it on your shoulders to be the one. To flee would doom thousands to death. I'm not sure about you, but that's not something I could ever live with and very much so does not make a "Mary Sue"
Refer to my comments above this one for why it's all but spelled out why you can't leave. May I ask exactly how you felt when you found out Loghain wanted your blood and all wardens dead? And wether you wanted to be a warden or not doesn't change the fact that you are one. Also in Inquisition you pretty much are sacrificing yourself at Haven, there is no chance that you will survive it. You have to play the role of hero from the very beginning pretty much.
Well, I never said anything about a Mary-Sue, and again, there are plenty of reasons to stay. Not everyone is a hero, however, and while you and I wouldn't choose to leave, there are plenty of people who would. Furthermore, while you and I know that nobody else can fill the role, the Warden might not. Like I said, they might consider Ferelden a lost cause after Ostagar and flee to Orlais. Maybe to save themselves, maybe to warn or even join the Orlesian Wardens.
As for leaving Ferelden, the fact that Loghain wants you dead seems like all the more reason to get out. His resources outside of Ferelden are likely far less than inside, and if you're not around to cause trouble he could well decide to focus his efforts on the Blight instead.
We can't all be heroes, and in realizing we can't save everyone discretion may become the better part of valor. Abandoning Ferelden to make a stand elsewhere seems like a realistic line of thought. Whether or not it is the optimal choice or the morally correct one doesn't have to factor into it. Your reasons for the Warden staying are perfectly valid, and as I've said before, match what my personal decision would be (at least I hope so). That there are valid reasons to leave as well doesn't really seem like it should be such a point of contention.
Yeah, my logic is that you will die any other way. YOU CANNOT LEAVE Ferelden. Your trapped, you guys keep suggesting that you can leave Ferelden. Look at the map around you.. Hoards will always meet you at every angle you attempt to leave. Everyone in Ferelden is vulnerable to the dark spawn threat. Every single person...
I don't know how to explain this anymore.. aghhh..
I can't say go North into the Free Marches, then West into Orlais? Or try to cross near the Frostbacks? Or about a million and one other options?
My only reasons to stick around were revenge against Lohgain for killing some people I had only knew for a few hours
And almost you, too.
What about this says "We have to stay and help Ferelden" at least from a logistics point of view?
You mean to say that there is any logic in plots that are glued together by "the protagonist has a hero syndrome". Truth to be told as a Cusland Noble it makes much more sense to slit Duncan's throat for blackmailing your family and forcing you into becoming a Warden and then go after Howe...and then maybe kill the Archdemon.
Truth to be told as a Cusland Noble it makes much more sense to slit Duncan's throat for blackmailing your family and forcing you into becoming a Warden and then go after Howe...and then maybe kill the Archdemon.
That would be nice. So would be , as a mage, to use your position in the Inquisition to turn it into an actively anti-chantry force, use it to disband the chantry and execute those who forced you into that role. Then maybe kill Cory.
Perhaps if budget wasn't spent on over-the-top-new-engine-graphics that end up being glitchy, advertising and multiple voice actors we could have had branching stories in a *gasp* game focused on story and choices. Unfortunately this isn't the case.
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