185 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

You mean to say that there is any logic in plots that are glued together by "the protagonist has a hero syndrome". Truth to be told as a Cusland Noble it makes much more sense to slit Duncan's throat for blackmailing your family and forcing you into becoming a Warden and then go after Howe...and then maybe kill the Archdemon.

 

Certainly was a possibility some people wanted.

 

And don't get me wrong, some Wardens can have personal reasons for staying. Ferelden, in a sense, is your home. But the game doesn't always do a great job of selling that. My Mage Warden, for example, never felt like he was part of a larger family. But then, Jowan was supposed to be my "best friend" so....that could be a factor. 

 

It's just that, from a strict tactical perspective, I don't see what about the situation should make me think that Ferelden is worth saving, when most of its leaders are either apathetic, unknown, or actively opposed to my efforts. 

[TheOgre]

You mean I have no reason to try to find a way into Orlais? That's odd, I'm sure there's always methods of travel open.

 

I don't see what Alistair killing the BBEG has to do with it in the end. Outside of metagame knowledge, there's actually no direct reason to think that you yourself have to kill the Archdemon at least to start with. You don't even know that killing him with a Grey Warden is necessary.

 

Your argument has been "Someone else could do it" but would that really be a compelling game or story? Spend twenty percent of your main quest to abandon Ferelden, go to Orlais, get help from orlais for 10-20% of the game and then come back to deal with a blight infested nation? I suppose the elves or the mage tower, the dwarves, they would have just been fine if you left them? Orzimmar, Daelish and Denerim, all ruins for DA2 and beyond. 

 

I don't think that'd make for a good story.

 

But if they did make that into a story. You'd have a destroyed kingdom, no dwarves (because dwarves are in Ferelden), and only one power house in the South for Tevinter to steamroll if not first the Dark Spawn. DO you know how fast they were birthing dark spawn? 40 or so spawn per brood mother birth. By the time you did get to Orlais and get support, I don't think the army, what was left of it during the civil war could have given you much support at all, much less care that Ferelden was being swarmed.

 

Blights are supposed to end fast because the longer they go on, the chances of ending it grow grimmer with each passing day. No obligation other than sheer logic. You could be a coward that has Alistair kill the darkspawn in the end. Self preservation could be a greater explanation than "just out of a heroes will".

[TBJack]

Yeah, my logic is that you will die any other way. YOU CANNOT LEAVE Ferelden. Your trapped, you guys keep suggesting that you can leave Ferelden. Look at the map around you.. Hoards will always meet you at every angle you attempt to leave. Everyone in Ferelden is vulnerable to the dark spawn threat. Every single person...

 

 

Yeah, no, we get that there are Darkspawn all over Ferelden.  That's kind of why we want to leave.

 

Flippancy aside, we're in danger from Darkspawn either way.  If we leave, at least we aren't obligated to face them head on.  By avoiding most of them I see no reason why we couldn't get away.  Again, Hawke and plenty of refugees got out, and I would assume that the Warden is more capable than the average refugee.

[Teligth]

Yeah, my logic is that you will die any other way. YOU CANNOT LEAVE Ferelden. Your trapped, you guys keep suggesting that you can leave Ferelden. Look at the map around you.. Hoards will always meet you at every angle you attempt to leave. Everyone in Ferelden is vulnerable to the dark spawn threat. Every single person...

 

I don't know how to explain this anymore.. aghhh..

 

Dude it's like talking to a brick wall for them.

[Il Divo]

Your argument has been "Someone else could do it" but would that really be a compelling game or story? Spend twenty percent of your main quest to abandon Ferelden, go to Orlais, get help from orlais for 10-20% of the game and then come back to deal with a blight infested nation? I suppose the elves or the mage tower, the dwarves, they would have just been fine if you left them? Orzimmar, Daelish and Denerim, all ruins for DA2 and beyond. 

 

I don't think that'd make for a good story.

 

But if they did make that into a story. You'd have a destroyed kingdom, no dwarves (because dwarves are in Ferelden), and only one power house in the South for Tevinter to steamroll if not first the Dark Spawn. DO you know how fast they were birthing dark spawn? 40 or so spawn per brood mother birth. By the time you did get to Orlais and get support, I don't think the army, what was left of it during the civil war could have given you much support at all, much less care that Ferelden was being swarmed.

 

Blights are supposed to end fast because the longer they go on, the chances of ending it grow grimmer with each passing day. No obligation other than sheer logic. You could be a coward that has Alistair kill the darkspawn in the end. Self preservation could be a greater explanation than "just out of a heroes will".

 

No, my argument is "this can't be done in this manner", not someone else can take care of it. Ferelden does not have a structure in place to support this kind of effort. 

 

Pointing out what you think would have made for the best story isn't relevant. These characters don't know they're in a story (metagaming), they make the best decisions with the knowledge at hand, which condemns the Ferelden effort. 

 

Do I think that leaving would allow the Blight to get out of hand? Possibly, but then the crazier it gets, the more likely support from someone will come. As it stands, I have no reason to believe that I can muster these forces. I could be dead by an arrow from an assassin at any point traveling in Ferelden. And having just become a Warden myself, I don't really have the experience to make these sorts of calls in recognizing how to combat the Darkspawn, which more senior wardens do. Again, we know we have resources ready and willing in Orlais. Everyone in Ferelden is either busy with their own garbage or actively trying to kill me. 

 

The game basically says "Good luck, bastard" once Duncan kicks the bucket, which isn't really great in terms of providing resources to stop this force. 

[TheOgre]

Yeah, no, we get that there are Darkspawn all over Ferelden.  That's kind of why we want to leave.

 

Flippancy aside, we're in danger from Darkspawn either way.  If we leave, at least we aren't obligated to face them head on.  By avoiding most of them I see no reason why we couldn't get away.  Again, Hawke and plenty of refugees got out, and I would assume that the Warden is more capable than the average refugee.

 

Hawke got out with Flemmith >.> That was in the early stages of the blight man, they were going to be overtaken without Flemmith. By the time Ostagar was concluded, the warden's chances of getting out was much more diminished without the help of a dragon..

[TheOgre]

Dude it's like talking to a brick wall for them.

 

It's just a game of "I have to be right" for some people

[Il Divo]

Hawke got out with Flemmith >.> That was in the early stages of the blight man, they were going to be overtaken without Flemmith. By the time Ostagar was concluded, the warden's chances of getting out was much more diminished without the help of a dragon..

 

You do realize that Lothering is destroyed after Ostagar? You actually have the ability to leave before it's annihalated, which doesn't happen until you conclude one of the main quest segments. 

[Il Divo]

It's just a game of "I have to be right" for some people

 

Could say the same for the other side of the fence. 

[TBJack]

Your argument has been "Someone else could do it" but would that really be a compelling game or story? Spend twenty percent of your main quest to abandon Ferelden, go to Orlais, get help from orlais for 10-20% of the game and then come back to deal with a blight infested nation? I suppose the elves or the mage tower, the dwarves, they would have just been fine if you left them? Orzimmar, Daelish and Denerim, all ruins for DA2 and beyond. 

 

I don't think that'd make for a good story.

 

But if they did make that into a story. You'd have a destroyed kingdom, no dwarves (because dwarves are in Ferelden), and only one power house in the South for Tevinter to steamroll if not first the Dark Spawn. DO you know how fast they were birthing dark spawn? 40 or so spawn per brood mother birth. By the time you did get to Orlais and get support, I don't think the army, what was left of it during the civil war could have given you much support at all, much less care that Ferelden was being swarmed.

 

Blights are supposed to end fast because the longer they go on, the chances of ending it grow grimmer with each passing day. No obligation other than sheer logic. You could be a coward that has Alistair kill the darkspawn in the end. Self preservation could be a greater explanation than "just out of a heroes will".

 

Actually, if you look back in the thread no-one said this would be a good story.  The point was to say that with the Warden, the fact that these options could conceivably be taken was more limiting in a way.  It meant that you had  to play someone who actively wanted to stay.

 

The Inquisitor, on the other hand, is subject to the Mark which may in and of itself be lethal and furthermore marks her as a target for Corypheus, who has a far greater reach than Loghain ever did.  This means that she has no real choice except to stay.  The lack of alternatives means you can play her as, for example, someone who would rather run away without having to make any sketchy excuses as to why she can't.

[TBJack]

Hawke got out with Flemmith >.> That was in the early stages of the blight man, they were going to be overtaken without Flemmith. By the time Ostagar was concluded, the warden's chances of getting out was much more diminished without the help of a dragon..

 

Plenty of other refugees got out without Flemeth.  It still seems a lot safer to try and avoid and escape the Darkspawn than actively fight them.

[Teligth]

I really don't get why we are arguing over something that is common sense and completely logical. How many blights before this one has complete devastated several nations across Thedas? It's been said that it takes several nations to stop the blights at the height of their strength. If you can stop it before it even really spreads it's a must. By the time you find your way to Orlais it would be too late. Plus the only person we have to rely on is Alistair who has no idea how to contact or even find them. Hell Wessupt is way to the north too and more than Ferelden would be rubble by then. The civil war has completely destabilized Ferelden and with his xenophobic nature, Loghain would have attacked anyone from Orlais which would have only compounded the issue.  

 

Come on now this isn't rocket science. 

[Teligth]

You do realize that Lothering is destroyed after Ostagar? You actually have the ability to leave before it's annihalated, which doesn't happen until you conclude one of the main quest segments. 

I think his point is without Flemeth neither the Warden or Hawke would have survived long. 

[TBJack]

I really don't get why we are arguing over something that is common sense and completely logical. How many blights before this one has complete devastated several nations across Thedas? It's been said that it takes several nations to stop the blights at the height of their strength. If you can stop it before it even really spreads it's a must. By the time you find your way to Orlais it would be too late. Plus the only person we have to rely on is Alistair who has no idea how to contact or even find them. Hell Wessupt is way to the north too and more than Ferelden would be rubble by then. The civil war has completely destabilized Ferelden and with his xenophobic nature, Loghain would have attacked anyone from Orlais which would have only compounded the issue.  

 

Come on now this isn't rocket science. 

 

First of all, I take issue with the idea that someone punted from one high-stress situation to another would necessarily act in a logical fashion.

 

Secondly, given Ferelden's inner turmoil and the dearth of Grey Wardens within it's borders, the phrase "lost cause" seems easily applicable even if not correct from the position of someone with meta-game knowledge.

 

If someone felt that staying in Ferelden was pointless due to their fractured and unprepared nature, why wouldn't they go somewhere they felt could actually be saved?  Heroic last stands make for a pretty picture, but if that's all that is accomplished there isn't much point.

 

Furthermore, that kind of pointless sacrifice would only serve to deny manpower and information to forces that might actually succeed.

 

We know staying was the right choice because we have the benefit of meta-game knowledge.  The Warden might well see things differently.

[Il Divo]

I really don't get why we are arguing over something that is common sense and completely logical. How many blights before this one has complete devastated several nations across Thedas? It's been said that it takes several nations to stop the blights at the height of their strength. If you can stop it before it even really spreads it's a must. By the time you find your way to Orlais it would be too late. Plus the only person we have to rely on is Alistair who has no idea how to contact or even find them. Hell Wessupt is way to the north too and more than Ferelden would be rubble by then. The civil war has completely destabilized Ferelden and with his xenophobic nature, Loghain would have attacked anyone from Orlais which would have only compounded the issue.  

 

Come on now this isn't rocket science. 

 

Sorry, I disagree. 

 

Your base logic is good, assuming that our starting point was Ostagar. We have an army, we know it's a Blight because Duncan senses the Archdemon. We have the Darkspawn cornered and we've done fairly well in battle so far.

 

All of that changes once Loghain leaves. Everyone who actually knows how to combat Darkspawn effectively are dead, since you've only been a Grey Warden for a short time. You have someone placing a bounty on you everywhere you go in Ferelden. And Loghain, to some extent, has some control over the Banns and his daughter is Queen. 

 

Not to mention, every time you find someone to recruit, they're suffering some sort of emotional crisis. Eamon, who's absolutely critical to the Landsmeet, is only saved by an ass-pulled Divine Artifact. The Dwarves are dealing with a million issues of succession and the Mages have abominations running everywhere. Not to mention, even before you visit, the idea that they'll enlist with you simply because of ancient treaties is questionable. 

 

From the starting point? None of this screams to me that the best way to stop the Blight is to stay in an actively hostile nation. If Ferelden falls anyway, you lose and wasted time/resources. 

[Il Divo]

I think his point is without Flemeth neither the Warden or Hawke would have survived long. 

 

But that's also questionable because Darkspawn don't reach Lothering for some time. So we don't need Flemeth for general travel. There's nothing stopping us from heading North. 

[ThreeF]

Perhaps if budget wasn't spent on over-the-top-new-engine-graphics that end up being glitchy, advertising and multiple voice actors we could have had branching stories in a *gasp* game focused on story and choices. Unfortunately this isn't the case.

The voice acting isn't the problem here. DA design has one fundamental flaw (aside from storytelling techniques and constant reinvention of the wheel): it was initially designed with the idea that your choices would carry into next games and will be important factor in the world shaping, you were suppose to play one continuous game broken in parts (kind of like LOTR movies). Great idea, but impossible to implement in any meaningful way and to the extend where it will actually matter, especially since it seems that there was no significant plot planning from the beginning. You can't do these sort of things on the go.

 

Other games have taken a different approach in this by keeping the impact of your choices within the game, giving you a fixed amount of branches (have three different endings and routes for example) and creating different kind of connections between games by using characters and events unaffected by plot to give the feeling of continuity or by acknowledging the various events in dialogue. DAI sort of ended doing that more or less anyways (acknowledging various events in dialogue) and I'm more than fine with that, now if only there was actual branching in the game itself. The fact that DA story doesn't go anywhere tires me.

[Teligth]

But that's also questionable because Darkspawn don't reach Lothering for some time. So we don't need Flemeth for general travel. There's nothing stopping us from heading North. 

 

As we leave Lothering heading north we are attacked by bounty hunters. My best assumption is we would face that the whole way north with little to no supplies or resources. In the end everyone would leave you at the departure from Lothering ad you would be pretty screwed all alone with no help or resources to flee the country. Morrigan along with Barkspawn, Alistair and Leliana would all go to Redcliffe, because they all understand the significance of what's happening. Lothering is barebones and probably wouldn't afford the best source of supplies for the long travel north. As such you logically would probably travel to Redcliffe with them to gather your needed supplies and equipment. From that point you would encounter that whole crisis and yes you could probably still run, but how long before it would all catch up to you.

 

Now lets break down these choices for the difference races and backgrounds.

 

Human Noble: Due to your connection with this land and obligations to protect your lands and avenge your family you will probably stay and help Alistair + crew.

Human/Elf Mage: You naturally wouldn't return to the tower for fear of being attacked, along your way you will probably encounter those that will try to kill you because of what you are and if not them maybe the templars. Fleeing will be difficult.

Dalish Elf: Aside from fearful humans trying to kill you, you would be an outcast everywhere you went and stick out like a sore thumb for bounty hunters. You might try to return to your clan, but they probably fled north as well to avoid the darkspawn.

City Elf: As with the Dalish you would stick out and be a target for the bounty hunters every step of the way. Plus people tend not to trust the elves as has been proven.

Dwarf Noble: If you fled to Orzammar you would be killed on sight.

Dwarf Commoner: Killed on sight in Orzammar

[Abyss108]

As we leave Lothering heading north we are attacked by bounty hunters. My best assumption is we would face that the whole way north with little to no supplies or resources. In the end everyone would leave you at the departure from Lothering ad you would be pretty screwed all alone with no help or resources to flee the country. Morrigan along with Barkspawn, Alistair and Leliana would all go to Redcliffe, because they all understand the significance of what's happening. Lothering is barebones and probably wouldn't afford the best source of supplies for the long travel north. As such you logically would probably travel to Redcliffe with them to gather your needed supplies and equipment. From that point you would encounter that whole crisis and yes you could probably still run, but how long before it would all catch up to you.

 

Now lets break down these choices for the difference races and backgrounds.

 

Human Noble: Due to your connection with this land and obligations to protect your lands and avenge your family you will probably stay and help Alistair + crew.

Human/Elf Mage: You naturally wouldn't return to the tower for fear of being attacked, along your way you will probably encounter those that will try to kill you because of what you are and if not them maybe the templars. Fleeing will be difficult.

Dalish Elf: Aside from fearful humans trying to kill you, you would be an outcast everywhere you went and stick out like a sore thumb for bounty hunters. You might try to return to your clan, but they probably fled north as well to avoid the darkspawn.

City Elf: As with the Dalish you would stick out and be a target for the bounty hunters every step of the way. Plus people tend not to trust the elves as has been proven.

Dwarf Noble: If you fled to Orzammar you would be killed on sight.

Dwarf Commoner: Killed on sight in Orzammar

 

These all seem smaller risks than fighting an army of darkspawn with no combat experience, no leadership experience, no clue what's going on, only 1 other gray warden who throws all the responsabillity in your direction, assassins hunting you, Lohgain turning the country against you, as well as whatever enemies you got from your origin. When you no reason to even care what happens to the country - they have their own armies to defend themselves with, someone will stand up and become a hero sooner or later.

 

Better to just get out the country.

[Farangbaa]

... What?? Look you just said it right there. Cory was trying to kill her actively. What do you think happens if you ignore loghain? He is far more aggressive in killing you than cory is to the inquisitor.

Unlike cory, loghain actually fears your existence and acknowledges your very threat. Cory is arrogant and indirectly attacks you.

 

Loghain would presume you dead if you said: '*bleep* this, I'm outta here Alistar' at Flemeth's cabin.

 

Not that Flemeth would let you, I suppose

[TBJack]

As we leave Lothering heading north we are attacked by bounty hunters. My best assumption is we would face that the whole way north with little to no supplies or resources. In the end everyone would leave you at the departure from Lothering ad you would be pretty screwed all alone with no help or resources to flee the country. Morrigan along with Barkspawn, Alistair and Leliana would all go to Redcliffe, because they all understand the significance of what's happening. Lothering is barebones and probably wouldn't afford the best source of supplies for the long travel north. As such you logically would probably travel to Redcliffe with them to gather your needed supplies and equipment. From that point you would encounter that whole crisis and yes you could probably still run, but how long before it would all catch up to you.

 

Now lets break down these choices for the difference races and backgrounds.

 

Human Noble: Due to your connection with this land and obligations to protect your lands and avenge your family you will probably stay and help Alistair + crew.

Human/Elf Mage: You naturally wouldn't return to the tower for fear of being attacked, along your way you will probably encounter those that will try to kill you because of what you are and if not them maybe the templars. Fleeing will be difficult.

Dalish Elf: Aside from fearful humans trying to kill you, you would be an outcast everywhere you went and stick out like a sore thumb for bounty hunters. You might try to return to your clan, but they probably fled north as well to avoid the darkspawn.

City Elf: As with the Dalish you would stick out and be a target for the bounty hunters every step of the way. Plus people tend not to trust the elves as has been proven.

Dwarf Noble: If you fled to Orzammar you would be killed on sight.

Dwarf Commoner: Killed on sight in Orzammar

 

I agree with you about the human noble, it's hard to imagine her not staying.

 

As for the mage and elves, yes, flight would be risky.  I don't really see how it would be any riskier than fighting the Darkspawn.

 

With the dwarves, yes Orzammar is a no-go, but there are plenty of dwarves elsewhere.  Granted those dwarves are surface dwarves, but so are you at this point.  Otherwise see mages/elves.

 

As for the crisis catching up to the Warden, sure, it might.  It also might not.  If she chooses not to get involved in anything I don't see any way for it to catch her except blind luck.

 

Also why is Barkspawn leaving?!  He's my pup dammit!

[TheOgre]

Loghain would presume you dead if you said: '*bleep* this, I'm outta here Alistar' at Flemeth's cabin.

 

Not that Flemeth would let you, I suppose

 

That'd be a good 30 minute game.

[Farangbaa]

That'd be a good 30 minute game.

 

Some of you guys really live in places where time flows incredibly weirdly.

 

I mean, the entire Origin story and Ostagar in 30 minutes?

 

Guess that explains the downright appaling understanding some people have about the story.

 

Oh and yes, it would've made for a very short game. But I thought you were discussing whether the HoF was forced to be heroic or not, not if it would've lead to a long game.

[DarthLaxian]

DA:I is the better game

 

Sorry, but:

 

What are you smoking, dude? - Can I have some, too? (In order to really enjoy DA:I which I didn't - I liked some parts (like the singing after Haven was destroyed) but for the most part it was bland and not entertaining (fetch-quests, collecting shards etc.))

 

greetings LAX