45 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashagar]

Atheism is simply about the nonbelief in the existence of deities. Religion in and of itself is immaterial to that especially as some religions not have requirement of a belief in deities and some faiths with gods are not organized religions.

[Eliastion]

If atheists are involved, then it isn't a religion. That's kind of the point of atheism.

No, the point of atheism is lack of belief in any gods. The problem is that religion isn't a well-defined term. Some definitions indeed require worship of gods, but that requirement is often discarded in favor of broader - and more useful - definitions.

And in Thedas the problem is even bigger since existance of supernatural beings is a proven fact - attempts at defining gods in this setting would be... problematic. One must ask oneself whether there are even any atheists in Thedas...

[Rekkampum]

If atheists are involved, then it isn't a religion. That's kind of the point of atheism.

 

Not really. There are many religions that do not require or center around a belief in a deity.

[dixophilia]

I don't have the World of Thedas Vol. 1 on hand at the moment, but I remember it referring to the Qun as both a religion and philosophy almost interchangeably. In Inquisition, Josephine says that it is a "a philosophy, a set of laws, a legislative guide, and a social architecture governing the Qunari." So the distinction between the two is not an easy one.

 

Thanks ... that answers most of my questions.

 

One it doesn't is ... have any Tal-Vashoth tried to return to their ancestral homeland, where the Kossith are?

If so ... what reception do they get?

 

The most important one is ... what deity (or deities) DO they worship?

The Kossith, before the Qun, prayed to animist gods. Other than that, we know nothing. When the Qun was put into place, any Kossith that defied its teachings were either reeducated or exiled. That being said, we don't know if there were enough surviving Kossith for the race to continue existing. For all we know, all original Kossith may be lost to time.

 

Also, in regard to the atheist debate, the Qun--in and of itself--isn't atheist, according to David Gaider. (x)

[X Equestris]

From what I understand of Buddhism, it doesn't address whether or not there are deities ... and I view religion as requiring some sort of deity.
Of course, I don't know every Buddhist ... but those I *do* know, agree that it is a philosophy rather than a religion.
That's why I used it.  (not to start a debate on whether or not it is a religion, just explaining why I used it as I did)
 
But if it's a hang-up for you ... forget the comparison to Buddhism, and use the comparison to Utopianism.

There is one sect of Buddhism, Mahayana, that believe Buddha is a god. It mainly spread to China, Korea, and Japan.

[Rekkampum]

I don't have the World of Thedas Vol. 1 on hand at the moment, but I remember it referring to the Qun as both a religion and philosophy almost interchangeably. In Inquisition, Josephine says that it is a "a philosophy, a set of laws, a legislative guide, and a social architecture governing the Qunari." So the distinction between the two is not an easy one.

 

The Kossith, before the Qun, prayed to animist gods. Other than that, we know nothing. When the Qun was put into place, any Kossith that defied its teachings were either reeducated or exiled. That being said, we don't know if there were enough surviving Kossith for the race to continue existing. For all we know, all original Kossith may be lost to time.

 

Also, in regard to the atheist debate, the Qun--in and of itself--isn't atheist, according to David Gaider. (x)

 

 I have a feeling the Kossith are still around, because plot reasons. There are no clear stories after all, which I feel is a big setup for a new arc in a future DA title or book.

[ByTheCode]

I think the Qun is similar to the Templars, sort of a ranking system I guess. I don't know really.

[Eliastion]

(...)

Also, in regard to the atheist debate, the Qun--in and of itself--isn't atheist, according to David Gaider. (x)

The way it was stated, it doesn't really tell us much, though. We don't know whether acknowledgement of existence of spirits in the Fade and/or Old Gods for example would count as not being atheistic in David Gaider's perspective.

[Former_Fiend]

If atheists are involved, then it isn't a religion. That's kind of the point of atheism.

 

That's the point of modern atheism. Atheism's actual, literal meaning is simply "without god". In theory, one could follow a non-deistic religion and still be considered an atheist. 

 

As it stands, the Qun obviously has spiritual views to it. They believe in the concept of the soul, they believe in the afterlife. They offer prayers for the dead. According to Gaider, they actually do acknowledge the existence of certain gods, even if they pay no homage to them.

 

Dedicated deity or not, when it comes to the question of "is the Qun a religion or philosophy", I'd say "both." Or if I wanted to be a smartass, I'd say "yes."

[Silfren]

Yeah I read what he said, but that didn't seem to make much sence.

 

Eh, I agree with you.  The original post you refer to was indeed equating atheism with religion, I read it the same way, and frankly that's the only interpretation that sense.  So you're not wrong in your assumptions, and you're certainly not "getting worked up."  I had a similar reaction.  Too many people like to try to equate atheism with religion while trying to make some kind of point, and they do so with no sense of irony at all.

[Silfren]

From what I understand of Buddhism, it doesn't address whether or not there are deities ... and I view religion as requiring some sort of deity.

Of course, I don't know every Buddhist ... but those I *do* know, agree that it is a philosophy rather than a religion.

That's why I used it.  (not to start a debate on whether or not it is a religion, just explaining why I used it as I did)

 

But if it's a hang-up for you ... forget the comparison to Buddhism, and use the comparison to Utopianism.

 

You're incorrect, then.  Religion does NOT require a deity.  More to the point, Buddhism is hardly an atheistic religion.  Plenty of Buddhists I know do believe in gods and spirits, so the idea that there is no god in Buddhism is false. The concept of a deity may be different, but to suggest that Buddhists are atheistic is ludicrous.

[Walter1968]

 

The Kossith, before the Qun, prayed to animist gods. Other than that, we know nothing. When the Qun was put into place, any Kossith that defied its teachings were either reeducated or exiled. That being said, we don't know if there were enough surviving Kossith for the race to continue existing. For all we know, all original Kossith may be lost to time.

 

From talking to Iron Bull ... he implies the Kossith are still around, and it was actually the Qunari that were exiled.

[I present Chuck Bass]

It's a way of living. They do not believe invisible men telling them what to do.

This doesn't make any sense...instead they believe in fellow qunari telling them what to do? It's not better..

[I present Chuck Bass]

It's a way of living. They do not believe invisible men telling them what to do.

This doesn't make any sense...instead they believe in fellow qunari telling them what to do? It's not better..

[Silfren]

This doesn't make any sense...instead they believe in fellow qunari telling them what to do? It's not better..

 

Well, that's a different thing.  Whether it 's BETTER is a matter of opinion which is a separate discussion from the question being addressed.

[Eliastion]

This doesn't make any sense...instead they believe in fellow qunari telling them what to do? It's not better..

No. Fellow qunari telling them what to do is practice (much like in other religiions priests tell people what to do, not gods themselves).

Qunari believe there is what they have to do, their role in society/nature/destiny - and priests are there to identify their calling and put them to work appropriate to their talents and predispositions. They're not deciding anything though, they're merely discovering and communicating what a young qunari is supposed to do. That's what they're supposed to do, at least - according to Qunari beliefs.

[o Ventus]

No, the point of atheism is lack of belief in any gods. The problem is that religion isn't a well-defined term. Some definitions indeed require worship of gods, but that requirement is often discarded in favor of broader - and more useful - definitions.

And in Thedas the problem is even bigger since existance of supernatural beings is a proven fact - attempts at defining gods in this setting would be... problematic. One must ask oneself whether there are even any atheists in Thedas...

 

The 'a' in atheism denotes "lack of". 

 

A (lack of) theism (religion). Lack of religion. Or, more literally, lack of god. But in an ill-defined context like this, 'religion' typically refers to either one of the 3 Abrahamic religions, or another major religion that worships a deity (or deities).

 

Atheism is a total lack of religion, period.

[Farangbaa]

The 'a' in atheism denotes "lack of". 
 
A (lack of) theism (religion). Lack of religion. Or, more literally, lack of god. But in an ill-defined context like this, 'religion' typically refers to either one of the 3 Abrahamic religions, or another major religion that worships a deity (or deities).
 
Atheism is a total lack of religion, period.

Halleluja!

(oh, the pun)

[Rekkampum]

You're incorrect, then.  Religion does NOT require a deity.  More to the point, Buddhism is hardly an atheistic religion.  Plenty of Buddhists I know do believe in gods and spirits, so the idea that there is no god in Buddhism is false. The concept of a deity may be different, but to suggest that Buddhists are atheistic is ludicrous.

 

Plenty of Buddhists believe in Gods but there are also plenty of Buddhists who don't. It isn't necessary to believe the Buddha was divine, etc., in order to be a Buddhist. Khandro Rinpoche could tell you that.

[Eliastion]

The 'a' in atheism denotes "lack of". 

 

A (lack of) theism (religion). Lack of religion. Or, more literally, lack of god. But in an ill-defined context like this, 'religion' typically refers to either one of the 3 Abrahamic religions, or another major religion that worships a deity (or deities).

 

Atheism is a total lack of religion, period.

No. It. Is. Not. See, I got even more periods, does it mean I win? 

There are atheistic religions and the definition you use, the one that equates religion with belief in god, is useless for classification purposes, doubly so in context of settings where supernatural entities are proven to exist.

And I am sorry to hear you equate "religion" with a couple most prevalent religions, but it is simply laughable as an argument in a discussion.

[Qun00]

Well, the word "converting" has been associated with the Qun.

So yes, it's both a philosophy and religion.