135 réponses à ce sujet

[Aeranduil]

Mass Effect works better this way. More immersive, more real. Just generally better. It didn't work as well when it was clogged up with needless RPG elements in the first game. And this is coming from a hardcore RPG gamer. I just feel a lot of the RPG elements weren't needed, they were getting in the way of the immersive storytelling and epic adventure. In my opinion.

[Captain Jazz]

Kalfear wrote...

Captain Jazz wrote...

Do they have to make the same game over and over and over and over again? Baldurs Gate in space would be fine, but Mass Effect would not work with those mechanics, it's an action game, turn based combat would not fit.

orked fine in the first one

Only people that complained were the ADD Shooter crowd

Im finding this rather funny, I said before ME2 shipped that the core audience of Bioware would object to game being dumbed down (and combat is brainless now btw) and spam the forums in revolt and its started!

This only the beginning folks, Bioware went to shooter and not enough RPG in ME2 and changes going to be made for ME3, the core audience will make sure of it.

Sooner or later you same 40 shooter posters going to get tired/fustrated and stop spamming each thread so the majority can get their points across in peace. 

Are you suggesting I am an ADD shooter because I'm capable of accepting that some games don't have to remain the way they weren't to begin with?
ME1 was a shooter, unless you missed those ever-so-rare parts with those funny noisy sticks? There were RPG elements which I liked but, to me, seemed a little stretched out and pretty meaningless overall (and why exactly does an elite marine need to learn to use his guns?)
I admit that I haven't received my copy of ME2 yet, so I can't say for certain, but what I've seen suggests that the RPG elements are still there, just made more meaningful and it sounds like it's more like the rpg elements of the original Deus Ex.
I'm sorry if I'm starting to seem a bit ****ty, but I get pissed off when people tell me that, as a hardcore RPG fan, I should be up in arms over a roleplay shooter being a roleplay shooter by people who believe that things should remain exactly as they used to be.

[jmood88]

Kalfear wrote...

Captain Jazz wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

Agreed, shame on Bioware. They lost their RPG roots trying to make just another shooter.

Do they have to make the same game over and over and over and over again? Baldurs Gate in space would be fine, but Mass Effect would not work with those mechanics, it's an action game, turn based combat would not fit.

orked fine in the first one

Only people that complained were the ADD Shooter crowd

Im finding this rather funny, I said before ME2 shipped that the core audience of Bioware would object to game being dumbed down (and combat is brainless now btw) and spam the forums in revolt and its started!

This only the beginning folks, Bioware went to shooter and not enough RPG in ME2 and changes going to be made for ME3, the core audience will make sure of it.

Sooner or later you same 40 shooter posters going to get tired/fustrated and stop spamming each thread so the majority can get their points across in peace. 

Like I said in another one of these threads, the first game was a ****ing shooter and they drastically improved that aspect. There still is no explanation as to what they've dumbed down. You can customize every part of your armor, you find upgrades for every weapon, you can upgrade the ship etc. There is much more in this game than there was in the first.

[Lenin]

Honestly I like this better than whatever messed up solution they probably would've provided to the inventory mess that was ME1.

[Captain Jazz]

jmood88 wrote...

Like I said in another one of these threads, the first game was a ****ing shooter and they drastically improved that aspect. There still is no explanation as to what they've dumbed down. You can customize every part of your armor, you find upgrades for every weapon, you can upgrade the ship etc. There is much more in this game than there was in the first.

It seems like a lot of people are just sore that you don't level weapon skills anymore and you can't change your team mate's clothes anymore, which all rpgs have... like NWN for instance

Maybe I am missing something vital though? They tend not to be very clear about what they're complaining about :\\

[Sovereign 666]

---------> \\_/
the care cup is empty...

Modifié par Sovereign 666, 27 janvier 2010 - 05:02 .

[Fallensbane]

I consider myself a Hardcore RPG fan and I still feel welcome and am loving ME2. There are a few things I miss from the first one, but it is not making me enjoy this game less.

[Tazzamann]

couple of things... Bioware are a company who want to make money, if they can broaden their appeal why shouldn't they? A lot of factors make an RPG, just because you dont have a tangible inventory and you shoot a lot of people doesn't mean its not an RPG, surely when you play a game without having to micromanage and still play the role of Shepard, it's a more immersive game? More like PLAYING a ROLE in a GAME, without needless fretting over stats which dont make much of a difference.

[BaronIveagh]

What's funny is that in some of the other threads the same people claiming that it's not a shooter are also extolling the disposal of the 'rpg garbage' of the previous entry.

[Realmjumper]

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

josh42426 wrote...

Bioware have dumbed down the rpg aspects of mass effect entirely with the sequel and instead opted for a game that will have a wider appeal.

You mean reducing 12 levels per skill which differ only by adding +1-2% of irrelevancy, to only 4 levels that actually make a difference?

Or getting rid of 100+ armors which you never bothered to use?

ME1 and 2 is a shooter RPG. Deal with it. You knew it before the release.

There's other BW franchise made specifically for old-school RPG players.


Personally I'm a hardcore player, a veteran of BG1,2, Icewind Dale 1,2, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum, KotOR 1,2, Fallout 1,2 and many other classic cRPGs. I like ME. It's simplier but it doesn't mean it's worse. It's different. If you don't like this game, just don't buy it. But don't say that ME2 is dumber than ME1.

Couldn't have summed it up better myself. ME 1 is good but there were so many skills and items that it became redundant. Love ME 1\\2!

[AlanC9]

Kalfear wrote...


Only people that complained were the ADD Shooter crowd

That's not  true. There were a fair number of complaints that the combat was not very good. They just didn't get to the level of "OMG THIS SUCKS!"

[Tazzamann]

I think the shooter crowd complained less about ME combat than the rpg crowd are about ME 2's combat.

[AlanC9]

Yeah, that's probably true, Tazzamann. But I'm not sure it signifies much; it's the change that ticks people off. If ME1 had shipped with ME2 mechanics, we wouldn't have seen the same level of outrage from the self-styled RPG purists.

[Thompson family]

I strongly disagree with the main complaint of this thread.



Short version: There’s a difference between Role-Playing and having all day to tinker. The chance to make Paragon or Renegade decisions on the fly is one of the best role-playing game mechanisms I’ve ever seen.



=====



Long version



1. Character customization:



My "protocol" for customizing my character in ME1 was:



a. Putting a priority on what skills I wanted.

b. Checking to see how many points I had.

c. Seeing which new skill level I could acquire or unlock with available points



The new upgrade process is functionally the same. It’s like getting a “batch” of points to spend instead of one each.



The only practical effect is to save me several hundred mouse clicks per game.





2. Inventory



The ME1 inventory system was an unholy mess.



I manage all my own cities in the Total War series. In that same series, I micro-managed horse archers before there was a usable skirmish system. I’m not only unafraid of micro-management, I tend favor it -- when it suit any logical purpose.



I played through a whole new, fresh game of ME1 (mainly to relieve the suspense) before ME2 came out. I knew what to do and how to do it. Therefore, I had 9.9999 million credits and 999 omnigel at the the end of the game and was STILL lugging around 150 items, turning them into omnigel just to make room.



The biggest practical effect of the new inventory system: Saves thousands of mouse clicks per game.



======



The role-playing here is in the dialogue, the choices and picking your squad members. That’s real role playing, not manipulating the gaming equivalent of a spreadsheet.

[Wrathra]

Billyo 9999 wrote...

The one thing I hate already about ME2 (Granted I'm only a few hours in). The stupid mission complete screens. They totally break the immersion of an RPG.

Yes! This drives me absolutely insane. I wish there was a way to turn them off.  It completely blows the immersion of it. 

[Tazzamann]

Wrathra wrote...

Billyo 9999 wrote...

The one thing I hate already about ME2 (Granted I'm only a few hours in). The stupid mission complete screens. They totally break the immersion of an RPG.

Yes! This drives me absolutely insane. I wish there was a way to turn them off.  It completely blows the immersion of it. 

But, doesn't having to add +1 to your shotgun skill do exactly the same thing when you're supposed to be playing a really good soldier?
The problem with rpg's in general is there will always be little number crunching segments which break up the immersion. The way Isee it, ME 2 tries to streamline a lot of the numbers and stat building to make it a more fluid rpg without having to weigh up whether you want to do +1% damage with your shotgun or your assault rifle.

[Mournland]

The combat I find fast paced, fun, and exciting. However, I do not find that the story / RP aspect of ME2 has been lost or dumbed down in the slightest because of the faster combat. Instead it stays as it was before, deep and filled with so many great twists. The most entertaining of them for me so far was Zaeed, and I expect nothing less than more deep and rich story as I continue through. Humbug to the OP and the idea that a deeper combat mechanic sacrifices story.

[Clumsy Ninja]

Wrath of Doom wrote...

ME2 is a shooter with some RPG elements.

Disagree.  Deus Ex is a shooter with some RPG elements.  Mass Effect 2, however, let's you actually play a role of your choosing.  (Unless that role happens to be homosexual.  If that's you, may I recommend Dragon Age?  Say 'Hi' to Zev for me .)

[Wrathra]

Tazzamann wrote...

Wrathra wrote...

Billyo 9999 wrote...

The one thing I hate already about ME2 (Granted I'm only a few hours in). The stupid mission complete screens. They totally break the immersion of an RPG.

Yes! This drives me absolutely insane. I wish there was a way to turn them off.  It completely blows the immersion of it. 

But, doesn't having to add +1 to your shotgun skill do exactly the same thing when you're supposed to be playing a really good soldier?
The problem with rpg's in general is there will always be little number crunching segments which break up the immersion. The way Isee it, ME 2 tries to streamline a lot of the numbers and stat building to make it a more fluid rpg without having to weigh up whether you want to do +1% damage with your shotgun or your assault rifle.

Huh?  I have no problem with number crunching.  I know when I find an upgrade or 500 credits or some metal.  I am aware of whats going on when it is occuring.

I care that right after I finish talking to someone or shooting something when the mission is complete, this screen where I have to look at the Illusive Man's butt pops up and tells me what I did. I already know what I did. I don't need to be reminded that I found 29000 credits and 500 paladium or whatever it is.

That is my problem with it. Its redundant and not necessary and completely ruins immersion.

[coinop25]

You think that's bad? You should try reading the prequel novels. God, you couldn't even equip Shepard in the stupid things, and I'm still not even sure what level I was at by the end of them...



(end sarcasm)



Mass Effect 1 is still a great game. Mass Effect 2 is another great game. Personally, I think what makes them great is the world and the characters, and I'm happy to try them out in different formats. Bioware isn't leaving behind the nerdy guys -- there's just more types of nerdery than some gamers are ready to embrace.



(Next up: Mass Effect LARPing!)

[Bebbe777]

There will always be something people complains about, thats our legacy. Nothing is perfect in this world but some people here thought that Mass Effect 2 was gonna be perfect. It can never be that but its very good and thus there will always be people that wont like it.

I stand with the majority though, I bloody like it.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

I'm still enjoying the game.

Not EVERY Bioware game has to be a hardcore RPG you know, and quite frankly the first mass effect wasn't much of a hardcore RPG either. 

[UHitMeInTheEar]

Maybe you should get a job. I get paid to look at numbers and seemingly meaningless percentages all day. I love the fact that my entertainment is less work.

[Thompson family]

The problem with rpg's in general is there will always be little number crunching segments which break up the immersion. The way Isee it, ME 2 tries to streamline a lot of the numbers and stat building to make it a more fluid rpg without having to weigh up whether you want to do +1% damage with your shotgun or your assault rifle.

That's a bingo.

There's another big problem with RPGs, an essential contradiction in most of them. It goes something like this:

"OMG! There's a HUGE, IMMEDIATE threat to the known universe/kingdom/world! You've got to act NOW and save us all!

"Oh, by the way, you need to collect a bunch of junk and level up several dozen times first. Here, go on a side quest to save some lady's pet rats. (An actual side quest in Oblivion.)"

The main RPG improvement in ME2 is the story, starting with a convincing, "no stunt" explanation of why Shepard was resurrected.