132 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

Hawke being an apostate mage and Champion of Kirkwall is a bigger issue for me. Gameplay and lore don't reconcile at all in that scenario.

I made Hawke a rogue in the Keep since I'm not touching DAII ever again.

 

If a Mage Hawke gets a bit lippy with her in Act 3, Meredith actually comments that their freedom and that of the other apostates in their group are down to her discretion and she can revoke that privilege at any time. Basically Hawke's freedom is conditional on their agreeing to continue to work for the city (aka Meredith), their popularity with the public and whether they keep their noise clean?

 

A Court Mage to the Empress, Vivienne is allowed similar freedoms, status and a position in the Orlesian court, as does Morrigan in an unofficial capacity as her occult advisor? Presumably, Hawke can fulfill a similar role in Kirkwall without too many eyebrows being raised, due to both their previous services to the city and since they're being sanctioned by the Templars?

 

But yeah, I do see how continuing to be a practicing blood mage thing would been iffy after being outed at the end of Act 2?

 

Having that line about their mother and Orsino being the final straw for a Blood Mage Hawke would have at least explained why they seem to disdain it so much in DAI, so it's weird that it was cut?

 

(As an aside, it reminds me of that cut scene in ME3 where Ashley would have finally acknowledged the giant elephant in the room after two games and asked whether Shepard remembered anything about being dead? Given that it would have been an ambiguous answer, I don't know why anyone might have thought it could have been too controversial?)

 

I know that sometimes you have to cut things for time, money or because you think that the scene could work without it, but it always sucks when they do it to things that are devoted to character development? It's not like Hawke had all that lot of screentime in DAI anyway, so it's a shame that even that limited amount had stuff end up on the cutting room floor?

[TheKomandorShepard]

The plot railroads everyone but Anders into betraying Hawke in a matter of seconds; I don't share your view that it's reflective of who these people actually are. The railroading is evident in other places, too. Cullen, for example, handwaves Hawke's warning about Anders' plot against the Kirkwall Chantry, even when Anders is standing right next to Hawke at the time he receives the warning.

Are we going to condemn Cullen because the Plot Dictates?

 

 

As Merrill points out when she chastises Anders, all spirits are dangerous. Valor can attack the apprentice. Justice can be dangerous; it's why he can attack the Warden-Commander at the Dragonbone Wastes. Even Solas admits that spirits can be a threat under certain conditions, which is why his friend turned into a dangerous spirit.

 

As for the fact that the distinctions are religious, even the codex entries about 'Spirits' and 'Demons' read that the difference is due to a perception that's tied to the Andrastian faith:

 

"The Maker's first creations were the spirits, glorious beings that populated the many spires of the Golden City, and the Chant of Light says that they revered the Maker with unquestioning devotion."

 

"As the spirits grew in power, however, some of them became contemptuous of the living. These were the spirits that saw the darkest parts of the dreamers. Their lands were places of torment and horror, and they knew that the living were strongly drawn to places that mirrored those dark parts of themselves. These spirits questioned the Maker's wisdom and proclaimed the living inferior. They learned from the darkness they saw and became the first demons."

 

David Gaider also commented that there's no WoG that 'Spirits' and 'Demons' are inherently different, either.

 

The plot don't railroads because in first merril or any character aren't player character and they are outside player control thus situation shows what indvidual would do facing demon.It is ridiculous like saying that quentin was railroaded to be insane seriall killer and he was nice guy.

 

Yes we will it still happened like it or not cullen screwd up even if it is quite idiotic it still happened in-universe and story.

 

As i said in my post before you ignore obvious differences between demons and spirits and in first place i never argued that spirits aren't dangerous or rather can't be dangerous but spirits are much better than demons because unlike demons they aren't malevolent.And in first place you for own convenience you used that spirit in solas quest turned into dangerous spirit instead fact that spirit was corrupted and turned into pride demon and because of that he was hostile and malvontent compared to times where he wasn't as a spirit.

 

Also as i said every spirit in series was benevolent (unless they were corrupted and turned into demons) in series as far when demons are malevolent.

 

There is no single

 

And why you quote chantry interpretation and origin of demons even despite i didn't used it in my arguments why spirits are better than demons?
 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

Im always right.

               

 

 

You are talking about da 2 justice not daa justice i guess as i said that was after they merged and well "justice" was more demon than not as he was corrupted by anders.

Yes, and Merrill could have warned him about that mistake had she known him then. Her philosophy is that all spirits are dangerous, not just the ones that are classed as demons. Even in Origins, with the Spirit of Valor, the Fade Rifter, and the Trickster Whim we see evidence that she's at worst oversimplifying. Her worldview, for all that she follows it less carefully than she could, would have correctly predicted that Anders' merger with Justice and the Warden's actions in Summoning Sciences would have had bad results.

 

All I'm saying is that Merrill has some insight that Anders lacked, and could have used.

[TheKomandorShepard]

               

 

Yes, and Merrill could have warned him about that mistake had she known him then. Her philosophy is that all spirits are dangerous, not just the ones that are classed as demons. Even in Origins, with the Spirit of Valor, the Fade Rifter, and the Trickster Whim we see evidence in her favor. Her worldview, for all that she follows it less carefully than she could, would have correctly predicted that Anders' merger with Justice and the Warden's actions in Summoning Sciences would have had bad results.

 

No then tell me pls when i was wrong? of course i was joking with that im never wrong but you are pretty much biased as hell but i can bet you wouldn't be able point where i was wrong or you would made up something i have never said but you think i have said.

 

It doesn't matter she is dumb enough to deal with demons and think she can handle them (when she couldn't) when anders was dealing only with spirits well 1 spirit that in fact was as i said benevolent in daa sure as i said merging was dumb idea and i don't argue that anders did good or it wasn't dumb move i just argue that at least he was dealing with spirits that are by far much better than demons i have explained why.  

 

Wait why you point as valor as bad from what i remember he didn't attack you , he didn't want to possess you from what i remember he challenges you to a duel that you can refuse.

 

About trickster whim he is demon or at least wiki claims that.

[LobselVith8]

The plot don't railroads because in first merril or any character aren't player character and they are outside player control thus situation shows what indvidual would do facing demon.It is ridiculous like saying that quentin was railroaded to be insane seriall killer and he was nice guy.

 

Yes we will it still happened like it or not cullen screwd up even if it is quite idiotic it still happened in-universe and story.

 

The plot in "Night Terrors" railroads all the characters into trying to kill Hawke in a matter of seconds, ignoring the content of their character and simply having them follow a specific outcome to kill Hawke because a spirit made them an offer. It's a ridiculous quest. I don't see why you're using this specific quest to address the traits of any of the characters.

 

As i said in my post before you ignore obvious differences between demons and spirits and in first place i never argued that spirits aren't dangerous or rather can't be dangerous but spirits are much better than demons because unlike demons they aren't malevolent.And in first place you for own convenience you used that spirit in solas quest turned into dangerous spirit instead fact that spirit was corrupted and turned into pride demon and because of that he was hostile and malvontent compared to times where he wasn't as a spirit.

 

You're ignoring that the distinction is made due to cultural and religious Andrastian distinctions, which is addressed in both the codex entries and Anders' own dialogue.

 

And why you quote chantry interpretation and origin of demons even despite i didn't used it in my arguments why spirits are better than demons?

 

Because Chantry interpretation is precisely why there is a distinction between 'Spirits' and 'Demons'.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The plot in "Night Terrors" railroads all the characters into trying to kill Hawke in a matter of seconds, ignoring the content of their character and simply having them follow a specific outcome to kill Hawke because a spirit made them an offer. It's a ridiculous quest. I don't see why you're using this specific quest to address the traits of any of the characters.

 

 

You're ignoring that the distinction is made due to cultural and religious Andrastian distinctions, which is addressed in both the codex entries and Anders' own dialogue.

 

 

Because Chantry interpretation is precisely why there is a distinction between 'Spirits' and 'Demons'.

 

  Way to ignore everything what i have said they weren't railroaded in first place because as i said player don't control them only devs and they write story for them and everything that happens.I happened she failed when she faced demon and by that proved that she was wrong and she is incompetent it happened in-universe so yes it does matter now matter how you try deny that or dislike it.

 

And again argument of an apologist " why you use it against merril only" because we discussed merril and other companion reaction don't matter in discussion "merril don't know what she is doing". So yes if somone will ask if aveline can handle deals with demons i will say no and merril or any companion will be irevelant in that discussion. 

 

 

Eee no chantry created story to why demons are bad and spirits are benevolent in first place humans distinguished demons from spirits (that is why there is division in first place) then chantry wrote story that spirits were makers childrens and demons are those who betrayed maker.

 

Pretty much same was with black city we know magisters went there but as well chantry could wrote that whole maker wrath part or they may be right as above. 

[Eliastion]

(...)

And not rly religious nature pls dude at this point we have obvious differences between spirits and demons where demons are malevolent , manipulative and desire to possess "mortals" spirits aren't pretty much we can compare how demon acted in series to how spirits acted in series...

(...)

I have an example for you - Sloth Demon in DA:O Mage Origin. There's also the Desire Demon who creates an illusion for the templar in Mage Tower - it doesn't possess anyone, it creates the perfect little world for its charge and only tries to defend itself when threatened. We also have Cole. He's never malicious, in fact he's the most benevolent spirit I can imagine - yet he messes with people's minds for their own good and is perfectly willing to kill if he believes it to be merciful or necessary to help more people. Now please look at the parallel with desire demon mentioned earlier - both are materialized spirits that came to their "victim" and comforted it according to their nature. Neither seems really willing to possess anyone yet both are messing with people's minds. Is the Desire Demon really melevolent here? Or perhaps just misguided? Or maybe even neither - it really seems that the escapist illusion the demon created makes the Templar the happiest he ever was! Sure, it's not real, but then again, on what basis (other than "it's not real so it's wrong") do we judge such situation? Don't people ever conceal cruel truth so that someone will be happier? What's the difference here, the scope? Also, from perspective of a spirit the idea that happiness must be grounded in material world (real things and people) might be relatively alien...

 

Basically, the distinction between Spirits and Demons indeed goes "Demons are malevolent , manipulative and desire to possess 'mortals', spirits aren't", but that seems like a distinction created primarily for classification purposes (whether it was Chantry idea or they got it from somewhere). If you say that "murderers are people who kill others unjustly", that's a classification and possibly a useful one, but it doesn't make murderers fundamentally different from humans nor does it mean that someone who generally doesn't kill unjustly won't ever murder anyone or commit some other crime... Oh, and then there is the whole gray area around what does "unjustly" mean, really.

Making a distinction between demons and "benevolent spirits" may be useful (just as differentiating murderers and good people) but that doesn't mean that there is some fundamental difference in their very nature, some clear-cut line that makes "good people" trustworthy and murderers into psychos willing to murder any- and everyone if only given the chance.

 

As an end note, however, I wanted to mention one other aspect - lots of people in Thedas are Andrastian. Many most likely don't really get anything about Fade, those few who do, however, make the Chantry-approved distinction. Considering the nature of the Fade it's not unthinkable that their ideas actually cause stronger polarization, making it more likely for spirits to actually shift further from the middle into either "benevolent spirit" or "foul demon" direction.

Though, mind you, this idea is purely a speculation  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Because Chantry interpretation is precisely why there is a distinction between 'Spirits' and 'Demons'.

No, there's more difference than that. I'm not trying to argue that there's no difference between the two sides of the aisle, just that spirits are still dangerous as evidenced by Trickster Whim (which I assume is classified as a non-demon since the Circle is allowed to summon it) the Fade Rifter (ditto) and the spirit of Valor (which I think gives you a game over if you duel it and it beats you.) Then there's the possibility that spirits can switch teams, but even before that there's reason to think spirits are dangerous.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I have an example for you - Sloth Demon in DA:O Mage Origin. There's also the Desire Demon who creates an illusion for the templar in Mage Tower - it doesn't possess anyone, it creates the perfect little world for its charge and only tries to defend itself when threatened. We also have Cole. He's never malicious, in fact he's the most benevolent spirit I can imagine - yet he messes with people's minds for their own good and is perfectly willing to kill if he believes it to be merciful or necessary to help more people. Now please look at the parallel with desire demon mentioned earlier - both are materialized spirits that came to their "victim" and comforted it according to their nature. Neither seems really willing to possess anyone yet both are messing with people's minds. Is the Desire Demon really melevolent here? Or perhaps just misguided? Or maybe even neither - it really seems that the escapist illusion the demon created makes the Templar the happiest he ever was! Sure, it's not real, but then again, on what basis (other than "it's not real so it's wrong") do we judge such situation? Don't people ever conceal cruel truth so that someone will be happier? What's the difference here, the scope? Also, from perspective of a spirit the idea that happiness must be grounded in material world (real things and people) might be relatively alien...

 

Basically, the distinction between Spirits and Demons indeed goes "Demons are malevolent , manipulative and desire to possess 'mortals', spirits aren't", but that seems like a distinction created primarily for classification purposes (whether it was Chantry idea or they got it from somewhere). If you say that "murderers are people who kill others unjustly", that's a classification and possibly a useful one, but it doesn't make murderers fundamentally different from humans nor does it mean that someone who generally doesn't kill unjustly won't ever murder anyone or commit some other crime... Oh, and then there is the whole gray area around what does "unjustly" mean, really.

Making a distinction between demons and "benevolent spirits" may be useful (just as differentiating murderers and good people) but that doesn't mean that there is some fundamental difference in their very nature, some clear-cut line that makes "good people" trustworthy and murderers into psychos willing to murder any- and everyone if only given the chance.

 

As an end note, however, I wanted to mention one other aspect - lots of people in Thedas are Andrastian. Many most likely don't really get anything about Fade, those few who do, however, make the Chantry-approved distinction. Considering the nature of the Fade it's not unthinkable that their ideas actually cause stronger polarization, making it more likely for spirits to actually shift further from the middle into either "benevolent spirit" or "foul demon" direction.

Though, mind you, this idea is purely a speculation

 

I will give you sloth demon (to be honest he was to lazy to want do anything) but desire demon wanted pretty much use templar and was deadly and toxic for him (eventually he would become empty shell and demon find another victim) so hardly good example of "good demon" or not malevolent demon. Cole on other hand is something new even solas can't tell what cole is and says perhaps he is neither and well even cole wasn't rly malevolent he killed people he wanted that and then in dai he is fueled by desire to help others and his mind-screws aren't dangerous for individual in contrast your mentioned desire demon.

 

As i said i never said spirits aren't dangerous they are hell even by fact they can turn into demons but as i said spirit in itself are better than demons by the virtue not being malevolent like demons. 

[LobselVith8]

  Way to ignore everything what i have said they weren't railroaded in first place because as i said player don't control them only devs and they write story for them and everything that happens.I happened she failed when she faced demon and by that proved that she was wrong and she is incompetent it happened in-universe so yes it does matter now matter how you try deny that or dislike it.

 

You don't seem to understand that plot railroading can happen to people who aren't the main character, as in the case of Cullen handwaving the warning about Anders' plot against the Kirkwall Chantry. Pointing out an example where all the companions (but Anders) are railroaded into a specific action isn't the best illustration of who the character really is.

 

And again argument of an apologist " why you use it against merril only" because we discussed merril and other companion reaction don't matter in discussion "merril don't know what she is doing". So yes if somone will ask if aveline can handle deals with demons i will say no and merril or any companion will be irevelant in that discussion. 

 

You're condemning Merrill because she doesn't hold Andrastian views on Spirits and Demons, which makes it difficult to take you seriously. You shouldn't expect a Dalish elf to hold the same cultural or religious views as an Andrastian. Merrill views spirits as spirits, as all the Dalish do (WoT even reads that the Dalish avoid using magic that involves spirits because they view spirits as dangerous); Solas even comments on this view in discussion with the Dalish protagonist.

 

Eee no chantry created story to why demons are bad and spirits are benevolent in first place humans distinguished demons from spirits (that is why there is division in first place) then chantry wrote story that spirits were makers childrens and demons are those who betrayed maker.

 

In other words, the distinction comes from Chantry teachings... and yet, you seem puzzled as to why Merrill doesn't share these views.

 

Pretty much same was with black city we know magisters went there but as well chantry could wrote that whole maker wrath part or they may be right as above. 

 

You're comparing the nature of the denizens of the Beyond with a particular historical event; that's not the same thing.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No then tell me pls when i was wrong? of course i was joking with that im never wrong but you are pretty much biased as hell but i can bet you wouldn't be able point where i was wrong or you would made up something i have never said but you think i have said.

 

It doesn't matter she is dumb enough to deal with demons and think she can handle them (when she couldn't) when anders was dealing only with spirits well 1 spirit that in fact was as i said benevolent in daa sure as i said merging was dumb idea and i don't argue that anders did good or it wasn't dumb move i just argue that at least he was dealing with spirits that are by far much better than demons i have explained why.  

 

Wait why you point as valor as bad from what i remember he didn't attack you , he didn't want to possess you from what i remember he challenges you to a duel that you can refuse.

 

About trickster whim he is demon or at least wiki claims that.

You seem to think it's practical to wipe out all mages. That's all I'm going to say because I have no interest in starting that stupid debate again.

 

As for the Trickster Whim, he's apparently considered to be a "minor spirit" by the Circle. He certainly acts like a demon, but I don't think the Circle would be allowed to summon him if the Chantry considered him to be one. Valor is less dangerous than that as he lets you opt out of fighting him and possibly dying, but if you don't you are in danger.

[LobselVith8]

No, there's more difference than that. I'm not trying to argue that there's no difference between the two sides of the aisle, just that spirits are still dangerous as evidenced by Trickster Whim (which I assume is classified as a non-demon since the Circle is allowed to summon it) the Fade Rifter (ditto) and the spirit of Valor (which I think gives you a game over if you duel it and it beats you.) Then there's the possibility that spirits can switch teams, but even before that there's reason to think spirits are dangerous.

 

Merrill comments on the nature of Torpor as a spirit of sloth when she cautions Hawke on how to avoid succumbing to Torpor; it's not as though she's ignorant about the specific traits of spirits. She even remarks on the differences between spirits in her arguments with Anders. The difference is that she views all the denizens of the Beyond as spirits, instead of thinking that some are the benevolent First Children of the Maker, and others embody different "sins" and turned their backs on the Maker to become 'Demons'.

 

There's simply no WoG that a distinction exists between 'Spirits' and 'Demons', and Gaider went out of his way to say as much when a fan erroneously claimed that he said otherwise.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Merrill comments on the nature of Torpor as a spirit of sloth when she cautions Hawke on how to avoid succumbing to Torpor; it's not as though she's ignorant about the specific traits of spirits. She even remarks on the differences between spirits in her arguments with Anders. The difference is that she views all the denizens of the Beyond as spirits, instead of thinking that some are the benevolent First Children of the Maker, and others embody different "sins" and turned their backs on the Maker to become 'Demons'.

 

There's simply no WoG that a distinction exists between 'Spirits' and 'Demons', and Gaider went out of his way to say as much when a fan erroneously claimed that he said otherwise.

No, but there's grounds in-game to say that the distinction works as a description in most cases. The "demons" really are almost universally antagonistic, and the ones that are called "spirits" are usually at worst alien. I'm not saying "spirits" are nice, just that they're nicer.

[Eliastion]

I will give you sloth demon (to be honest he was to lazy to want do anything) but desire demon wanted pretty much use templar and was deadly and toxic for him (eventually he would become empty shell and demon find another victim) so hardly good example of "good demon" or not malevolent demon. Cole on other hand is something new even solas can't tell what cole is and says perhaps he is neither and well even cole wasn't rly malevolent he killed people he wanted that and then in dai he is fueled by desire to help others and his mind-screws aren't dangerous for individual in contrast your mentioned desire demon.

 

As i said i never said spirits aren't dangerous they are hell even by fact they can turn into demons but as i said spirit in itself are better than demons by the virtue not being malevolent like demons. 

They are still pretty single-minded at times... and as for desire demon in Mage Tower, isn't that your assertion rather than a fact? We don't know what would really happen. Other than presumption that she's harming him because she's a demon (circular logic) I don't think we have any way of confirming what long-term consequences would letting them be have. Your presumption that she is a parasite that will destroy him is just that: a presumption. Her intentions are something we really know nothing about. All she has done is:

1. Making his desires "real" to the best of her ability, making him happy.

2. Sticking with him (but not possessing him, mind you).

3. Fighting together with him if you want a fight.

Other than her being a demon there's nothing that would indicate that she's malevolent. So unless you assume that demons must be malevolent, you can't prove that she is malevolent - she can just as well be sincere, regardless of whether we consider her actions to be actually beneficial for the Templar or not.

I don't say I remember every detail (and, especially, every variant) of this dialogue but I'm pretty sure that you can't prove her malice without circular logic starting with assumption that she's a demon so she must be malicious  

[TheKomandorShepard]

You don't seem to understand that plot railroading can happen to people who aren't the main character, as in the case of Cullen handwaving the warning about Anders' plot against the Kirkwall Chantry. Pointing out an example where all the companions (but Anders) are railroaded into a specific action isn't the best illustration of who the character really is.

 

 

You're condemning Merrill because she doesn't hold Andrastian views on Spirits and Demons, which makes it difficult to take you seriously. You shouldn't expect a Dalish elf to hold the same cultural or religious views as an Andrastian. Merrill views spirits as spirits, as all the Dalish do (WoT even reads that the Dalish avoid using magic that involves spirits because they view spirits as dangerous); Solas even comments on this view in discussion with the Dalish protagonist.

 

 

In other words, the distinction comes from Chantry teachings... and yet, you seem puzzled as to why Merrill doesn't share these views.

 

 

You're comparing the nature of the denizens of the Beyond with a particular historical event; that's not the same thing.

 

No it can't how the hell devs can railroad character they create and they establish so thus can't railroad them because characters are under their control thus any action would be railroading like merril likes tomatoes if devs wrote that she fell to the demon in story and in-universe she did like it or not as i said but she did .And yes it is as it establish character in-universe by taken actions. 

 

Im not condemning merril for not helding andrastian views on spirits and demons i condemn her for being an idiot.Rly you accuse me that you can't take me seriously despite you bring into disscusion whether merril "can handle demons or not" argument like " but aveline didn't handle demon as well thus it is prove that merril can handle demon despite she didn't" dude at this point i should question if i should take you seriously when my arguments are pretty much that she fell to the demon in-unverse when facing demon.

 

 

And again it doesn't not come from chantry because as i said there is obvious difference between demon and spirit and im not saying that because chantry says that im saying basing on my experience demons and spirits pretty much im saying. 

 

 

You seem to think it's practical to wipe out all mages. That's all I'm going to say because I have no interest in starting that stupid debate again.

 

As for the Trickster Whim, he's apparently considered to be a "minor spirit" by the Circle. He certainly acts like a demon, but I don't think the Circle would be allowed to summon him if the Chantry considered him to be one. Valor is less dangerous than that as he lets you opt out of fighting him and possibly dying, but if you don't you are in danger.

1.Where i was wrong there pretty much from what i remeber i justified this with mages causing constantly disasters that demolish society or even thedas what i supported by many examples in-universe.If you don't want to argue sure your call but that don't make me wrong in any way.  

 

2.To be honest fade rifter you mentioned wasn't normal spirit but rather construct created by summoning at least his codex entry says that.About Trickster his codex don't sound like spirit for me even not as demon a rather separate entity that may live in the fade but i lack knowledge on that topic.To be honest i have hard time beliving that chantry would allow summon any dangerous thing from the fade hell even spirit healers aren't much liked by chantry and templars.  

 

 

They are still pretty single-minded at times... and as for desire demon in Mage Tower, isn't that your assertion rather than a fact? We don't know what would really happen. Other than presumption that she's harming him because she's a demon (circular logic) I don't think we have any way of confirming what long-term consequences would letting them be have. Your presumption that she is a parasite that will destroy him is just that: a presumption. Her intentions are something we really know nothing about. All she has done is:

1. Making his desires "real" to the best of her ability, making him happy.

2. Sticking with him (but not possessing him, mind you).

3. Fighting together with him if you want a fight.

Other than her being a demon there's nothing that would indicate that she's malevolent. So unless you assume that demons must be malevolent, you can't prove that she is malevolent - she can just as well be sincere, regardless of whether we consider her actions to be actually beneficial for the Templar or not.

I don't say I remember every detail (and, especially, every variant) of this dialogue but I'm pretty sure that you can't prove her malice without circular logic starting with assumption that she's a demon so she must be malicious

Except part where she enslaved him and took away his will?

 

Not mention she calls him her pet what pretty much suggests she see him as her play thing.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1.Where i was wrong there pretty much from what i remeber i justified this with mages causing constantly disasters that demolish society or even thedas what i supported by many examples in-universe.If you don't want to argue sure your call but that don't make me wrong in any way.  

 

2.To be honest fade rifter you mentioned wasn't normal spirit but rather construct created by summoning at least his codex entry says that.About Trickster his codex don't sound like spirit for me even not as demon a rather separate entity that may live in the fade but i lack knowledge on that topic.To be honest i have hard time beliving that chantry would allow summon any dangerous thing from the fade hell even spirit healers aren't much liked by chantry and templars.  

1: No, it's the stuff I've already pointed out to you that makes you wrong. And that's the last argument I'll make in that direction because everything has been said and ignored.

 

2: You are perfectly free to disbelieve that the Chantry would allow apprentices to summon dangerous things from the Fade. I'm a bit sketched out by that decision too. But the fact remains that they clearly allowed it, even if we can't wrap our heads around why.

[KaiserShep]

Audacity didn't almost possess Merrill, it's just that Keeper Marethari thought it would be a good idea to let the demon possess her because she was afraid it would go through the Eluvian to possess Merrill. Frankly where the hell did Marethari get that idea from? And since when did she become the ultimate authority on demons? The lesson doesn't seem to be so much Merril's pride but Marethari's.

I was curious about this, because it seems like the only way for her to get any kind of insight on the demon's master plan would be to actually get it from the horse's mouth, being the demon, in which case, Marethari was totally had.

[TheKomandorShepard]

1: No, it's the stuff I've already pointed out to you that makes you wrong. And that's the last argument I'll make in that direction because everything has been said and ignored.

 

2: You are perfectly free to disbelieve that the Chantry would allow apprentices to summon dangerous things from the Fade. I'm a bit sketched out by that decision too. But the fact remains that they clearly allowed it.

1.What stuff you are talking about your argument in discussion in your link i countered that from what i see.

 

2.That is true as we see that in dao and i have no prove that they didn't but then there is good question to ask  why they wouldn't allow summon demons if they already allowed to summon already dangerous and malevolent beings what is reason why chantry dislike and fears demons in first place.In fact aren't demons thing i described so wouldn't they be considered demon. 

[Hazegurl]

Well that is poor defense if you have to bring being better than Anders but even that fails as at least anders knew to not deal with demons despite he merged with spirit that wasn't malevolent and manipulative sure dumb idea but at least as i said he refused to deal with demons when merril not and there are obvious differences between two. 

Yet Anders failed to realize that the moment Justice was okay with having his body was the moment he was a demon. Justice pretty much told him so in Awakening.  Everything else is just Anders trying to justify his own stupidity.

[Efvie]

No it can't how the hell devs can railroad character they create and they establish so thus can't railroad them because characters are under their control …

 

Railroading refers to any action that a player character or non-player character takes that is against their established personality, for the sake of moving the plot in a certain direction.

 

Not allowing Hawke to kill Sister Petrice right off the bat is railroading the player character. Making Varric betray Hawke is railroading the non-player character (or railroading the plot, if you prefer).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1.What stuff you are talking about your argument in discussion in your link i countered that from what i see.

 

2.That is true and i have no prove that they didn't but then there is good question to ask would be why they wouldn't allow summon demons if they already allowed to summon already dangerous and malevolent beings what is reason why chantry dislike and fears demons in first place. 

1: Lol.

 

2: While I really think the Chantry was being less careful than they should have, the reason they don't allow people to summon Rage and Pride Demons is because those are dangerous. I agree that they should ban Trickster Whim for the same reason, but they don't. I can only assume that Trickster Whim is less dangerous somehow; presumably he's either easier to contain (Summoning Sciences implies that the things they do allow apprentices to summon can be handled by a Circle that doesn't have much bigger problems) or because he's disinclined to attempt possessions. Even if neither of these is true, the fact that they allow one class of Really Dangerous Things to be summoned doesn't disqualify them from barring mages from summoning other Really Dangerous Things.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yet Anders failed to realize that the moment Justice was okay with having his body was the moment he was a demon. Justice pretty much told him so in Awakening.  Everything else is just Anders trying to justify his own stupidity.

As i said i don't argue that anders wasn't an idiot becuase he merged with justice because i agree that he was.I don't think justice become a demon before merging with justice it is rarther because anders corrupted him.Im not sure but i think DG in one interview mentioned that or even that taint may have been involved in process.

 

 

 

Railroading refers to any action that a player character or non-player character takes that is against their established personality, for the sake of moving the plot in a certain direction.

 

Not allowing Hawke to kill Sister Petrice right off the bat is railroading the player character. Making Varric betray Hawke is railroading the non-player character (or railroading the plot, if you prefer).

If Varric betrayed hawke it would be part of his character and what he did and would make him traitor but he didn't.You can't rly railroad npc because as i said devs establish character so if they say varric would betray hawke he would nothing more to say.Of cousre you still can make character inconsistent in another products to what it was before but it isn't railroading funny thing merril is example of such character as we can see dao merril and da 2 merril. 

 

 

1: Lol.

 

2: While I really think the Chantry was being less careful than they should have, the reason they don't allow people to summon Rage and Pride Demons is because those are dangerous. I agree that they should ban Trickster Whim for the same reason, but they don't. I can only assume that Trickster Whim is less dangerous somehow; presumably he's either easier to contain (Summoning Sciences implies that the things they do allow apprentices to summon can be handled by a Circle that doesn't have much bigger problems) or because he's disinclined to attempt possessions. Even if neither of these is true, the fact that they allow one class of Really Dangerous Things to be summoned doesn't disqualify them from barring mages from summoning other Really Dangerous Things.

1.Well i said truth.

 

2.True you have a point but still it could mean there is possibility those things were demons just chantry allowed it because they were less dangerous as you said.

[Eliastion]

(...)

Except part where she enslaved him and took away his will?

 

Not mention she calls him her pet what pretty much suggests she see him as her play thing.

She didn't. He obviously has free will. What he doesn't have is a grasp on reality.

And "pet" seems to be common enough endearment term. I understand the connotations, but it still can't be used as an argument. Unless she at some point calls Templar "pet" when speaking to the Warden - but I'm pretty sure that it only ever appears when she's talking to the Templar himself. Also, even if it WERE literally to be an owner-pet relationship in her opinion, does owning a pet actually imply malice towards it? I think Justice at some point assumed that Anders "enslaved" his pet cat, but I don't think we took this accusation seriously, did we?  

The problem is that, while I don't claim their relationship to be healthy, it doesn't mean it's in any way malicious on her part. Her perspective just being a bit alien is completely satisfactory explanation. He's happy, she accompanies him, they protect each other - I don't say that the way she cares for him isn't twisted (at least from our perspective) but it really seems like she does care. And if she does, that means that she is anything but malicious. She can still do harm, mind you - regardless of interpretation of their relationship, her refusal to let go leads potentially to Warden killing the Templar, for example. But being harmful and malicious is not the same (as we know, Spirits are perfectly capable of harming people without any actual malice towards them). 

 

On side note, to add my bit to wider discussion that goes here, Spirits of the Fade are far from being the only spiritual entities in Thedas. There are at the very least souls of mortal people that can end up trapped as ghosts. And there is also a mention of "spirits" that actually live on this side of the Fade - the most prominent (from what we encountered at least) being the Lady of the Forest... Though I personally do believe her to be very close to mortal souls - in a way I think she IS a soul of a mortal. Just this particular mortal being... well. A forest. Which is an interesting concept that would probably make Chantry cringe. Still, I really like the idea that the whole material world is pretty much full of living things even though some are not necessarily recognized as such by humans... or most humans at least - some "primitive" religions seem to recognize existence of various nature spirits in the world (separate from Fade spirits).

[TheKomandorShepard]

She didn't. He obviously has free will. What he doesn't have is a grasp on reality.

And "pet" seems to be common enough endearment term. I understand the connotations, but it still can't be used as an argument. Unless she at some point calls Templar "pet" when speaking to the Warden - but I'm pretty sure that it only ever appears when she's talking to the Templar himself. Also, even if it WERE literally to be an owner-pet relationship in her opinion, does owning a pet actually imply malice towards it? I think Justice at some point assumed that Anders "enslaved" his pet cat, but I don't think we took this accusation seriously, did we?

The problem is that, while I don't claim their relationship to be healthy, it doesn't mean it's in any way malicious on her part. Her perspective just being a bit alien is completely satisfactory explanation. He's happy, she accompanies him, they protect each other - I don't say that the way she cares for him isn't twisted (at least from our perspective) but it really seems like she does care. And if she does, that means that she is anything but malicious. She can still do harm, mind you - regardless of interpretation of their relationship, her refusal to let go leads potentially to Warden killing the Templar, for example. But being harmful and malicious is not the same (as we know, Spirits are perfectly capable of harming people without any actual malice towards them). 

 

On side note, to add my bit to wider discussion that goes here, Spirits of the Fade are far from being the only spiritual entities in Thedas. There are at the very least souls of mortal people that can end up trapped as ghosts. And there is also a mention of "spirits" that actually live on this side of the Fade - the most prominent (from what we encountered at least) being the Lady of the Forest... Though I personally do believe her to be very close to mortal souls - in a way I think she IS a soul of a mortal. Just this particular mortal being... well. A forest. Which is an interesting concept that would probably make Chantry cringe. Still, I really like the idea that the whole material world is pretty much full of living things even though some are not necessarily recognized as such by humans... or most humans at least - some "primitive" religions seem to recognize existence of various nature spirits in the world (separate from Fade spirits).

You do realize  she controlled him into doing what she wants to the point he don't know who he is i guess then using drugs to brainwash you into complete obedience don't make it slavery in your book . What is quite funny considering that you have said circles are slavery because they kept mages closed but brainwashing individual into complete obedience with no chance freeing themselves isn't slavery but hey it isn't slavery unless it is mage. .

 

Not mention there is no evidence that she cared as i said we have above and we know demons are great liars to the point almost every attempt of bargain ends poorly as demon had his own selfish benefit in it what as far we can say it is true.

 

So in the end she brainwashed guy and had complete control over his mind without his approval.

[BronzTrooper]

tbh, I'm not even remotely surprised that this thread turned out like this.  As soon as blood magic and/or Merrill is brought up, odds are that flames will be spewed all over the place...

 

 

Anybody got popcorn?