184 réponses à ce sujet

[Eliastion]

And why shouldn't the Divine Leliana ending exist?

I'll chose an unhardened Divine Leliana anytime of the day over everybody else, in all my playthroughs.

(But if she's hardened, then Divine Cassandra it is.)

But that's the thing. Her (softened) ending is perfect. TOO perfect. That's the greatest complaint people have - that everything seems to work out just fine even though it really shouldn't. Basically, it's either the case of ending slides omitting some serious problems and/or serious efforts to address said problems or a case of "yeah I'm the perfect ending everything just works out 'cause I said so. Mages are respected, opponents back down, the Chantry remains mostly united despite HUGE reforms going against centuries of tradition...

People don't say the ending is "bad" but "badly written" by being basically too good. That's the complaint.

[Xilizhra]

But that's the thing. Her (softened) ending is perfect. TOO perfect. That's the greatest complaint people have - that everything seems to work out just fine even though it really shouldn't. Basically, it's either the case of ending slides omitting some serious problems and/or serious efforts to address said problems or a case of "yeah I'm the perfect ending everything just works out 'cause I said so. Mages are respected, opponents back down, the Chantry remains mostly united despite HUGE reforms going against centuries of tradition...

People don't say the ending is "bad" but "badly written" by being basically too good. That's the complaint.

After all the complaints about DA2's bleakness, who can blame them?

[Master Warder Z_]

After all the complaints about DA2's bleakness, who can blame them?

I found nothing wrong with the bleakness

[Xilizhra]

I found nothing wrong with the bleakness

And I found nothing wrong with DAI's triumph, so we each have one tone that we liked.

 

Except that I didn't find DA2's ending to be bleak, because we were still able to pull a victory out of it, so I sort of like both.

[Master Warder Z_]

Except that I didn't find DA2's ending to be bleak, because we were still able to pull a victory out of it

Agreed.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I found nothing wrong with the bleakness

I had problems with Hawke being an absolute failure who failed at pretty much everything they did. They failed at stoping Pertice from starting violence with the Qunari, Hawke failed to save his mother, Hawke failed to stop Meredith from destroying Kirkwall, Hawke failed at stopping Anders, and Hawke failed to stop a Mage rebellion if Hawke sided with the Templars. The only thin Hawke succeeds is getting rich. There's a reason Hawke is known as a failure hero.

[BSpud]

I had problems with Hawke being an absolute failure who failed at pretty much everything they did. They failed at stoping Pertice from starting violence with the Qunari, Hawke failed to save his mother, Hawke failed to stop Meredith from destroying Kirkwall, Hawke failed at stopping Anders, and Hawke failed to stop a Mage rebellion if Hawke sided with the Templars. The only thin Hawke succeeds is getting rich. There's a reason Hawke is known as a failure hero.

 

Cool, like Indy in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[Steelcan]

I had problems with Hawke being an absolute failure who failed at pretty much everything they did. They failed at stoping Pertice from starting violence with the Qunari, Hawke failed to save his mother, Hawke failed to stop Meredith from destroying Kirkwall, Hawke failed at stopping Anders, and Hawke failed to stop a Mage rebellion if Hawke sided with the Templars. The only thin Hawke succeeds is getting rich. There's a reason Hawke is known as a failure hero.

finally you say something I agree with

[TheRatPack55]

I had problems with Hawke being an absolute failure who failed at pretty much everything they did. They failed at stoping Pertice from starting violence with the Qunari, Hawke failed to save his mother, Hawke failed to stop Meredith from destroying Kirkwall, Hawke failed at stopping Anders, and Hawke failed to stop a Mage rebellion if Hawke sided with the Templars. The only thin Hawke succeeds is getting rich. There's a reason Hawke is known as a failure hero.

I would have felt like a hero if I got rich.

[Master Warder Z_]

I would have felt like a hero if I got rich.

Orsino: But I can give you wisdom!

Meredith: And I can make you rich!

[theflyingzamboni]

I can't put Celene and Briala together, after reading the book.  There is so much creepy unhealthiness in that relationship.  If they chose just to work together, I'd be okay with that- but it seems like you respark their romance.  I'm not Briala's biggest fan (in honestly, I think all three of them, while interesting characters, are fairly horrible people), but purposely putting someone back in a relationship that's abusive is not something I myself can bring myself to do, even if some of my Inquisitors would be okay with it (I mean, it works, right?  WOO POWER).

I keep seeing people say this, but not having read TME, I'm not really sure what it's about. I keep seeing people calling the relationship 'toxic' and 'abusive'. Was there some kind of actual abusive behavior in the relationship in general, or is this just in reference to Celene having Briala's parents and the elves of Halamshiral killed? (Not that that isn't already horrible)

[Wulfram]

The success of Leliana as Divine is actually rather heavily qualified

She meets with their leaders, urging unity. Miraculously her words take root, and - for now - the Chantry remains strong.

The College, they say will allow mages of the South to gather in peace and seek new solutions to age-old problems.

For the moment, it appears to be working – mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas.

It wouldn't be at all surprising if it turns out to be a lot less rosy in future games. Though I do hope they don't turn it into a simplistic "gotcha" in yet another attempt to make people think the circles make sense.

[Boost32]

I would like the option to marry Gaspard to Celene and kill Briala.

Or a option to make Gaspard the emperor without letting Celene die, my Inquisitor would look like a failure, "I went to the ball to prevent Celene be assassinated, but I let her be assassinated lol".

I'm still in doubt in what to do in my canon, the Truce empower my Inquisition(combined with denouncing Florianne, makes me feel like a master of the Game), but Gaspard is a bro and I would like him to be emperor, dont know what to do =/

[Eliastion]

The success of Leliana as Divine is actually rather heavily qualified

She meets with their leaders, urging unity. Miraculously her words take root, and - for now - the Chantry remains strong.

The College, they say will allow mages of the South to gather in peace and seek new solutions to age-old problems.

For the moment, it appears to be working – mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas.

It wouldn't be at all surprising if it turns out to be a lot less rosy in future games. Though I do hope they don't turn it into a simplistic "gotcha" in yet another attempt to make people think the circles make sense.

I don't think they would do that - my guess (especially as we move out of the South in next game) is some half-defined middle-ground hazy enough that they'll end up replacing "Circle" with "College" based on world state and everything else will be exactly the same. You know, the level of variety we got in DA:I by choosing Anora or Alistair (or both) to rule Ferelden...

The ground for grand unification of outcomes is already there, after all - with either solution you end up with central institution governing mages and correct me if I'm wrong, but no Divine enforces heavy Templar scrutiny. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with an institution connected to Chantry (closely in Vivienne's case but not completely independent in another endings too) that gets to relatively strictly control mages (College needs good PR, Circles are Circles) but also somewhat more open (using mages' skills for benefit of Divine (hi Viv), to speed up the reconstruction (Cass) or to earn money and people's trust (Leliana)).

Basically, if you look at situation from distant enough place, differences between outcomes can be relatively neatly swept under a rug without really angering players (they will complain but let's be honest, players always complain).

[Eliastion]

I would like the option to marry Gaspard to Celene and kill Briala.

Or a option to make Gaspard the emperor without letting Celene die, my Inquisitor would look like a failure, "I went to the ball to prevent Celene be assassinated, but I let her be assassinated lol".

I'm still in doubt in what to do in my canon, the Truce empower my Inquisition(combined with denouncing Florianne, makes me feel like a master of the Game), but Gaspard is a bro and I would like him to be emperor, dont know what to do =/

There should be an option to kill all three and try to seize the crown for yourself!

It would fail, obviously, and result in game over, but it would be hilarious if they allowed you to try this Getting kicked out of the party is such a non-epic way to screw everything up...

[Barquiel]

I keep seeing people say this, but not having read TME, I'm not really sure what it's about. I keep seeing people calling the relationship 'toxic' and 'abusive'. Was there some kind of actual abusive behavior in the relationship in general, or is this just in reference to Celene having Briala's parents and the elves of Halamshiral killed? (Not that that isn't already horrible)

 

The relationship has its problems (especially the thing with Briala's parents of course), but Celene did not abuse her power over Briala (and Briala wouldn't let herself be "abused" by Celene)

[DuskWanderer]

The relationship has its problems (especially the thing with Briala's parents of course), but Celene did not abuse her power over Briala (and Briala wouldn't let herself be "abused" by Celene)

 

Considering the racism Celene displayed, its more than a little troubling.

 

I would like the option to marry Gaspard to Celene and kill Briala.

Or a option to make Gaspard the emperor without letting Celene die, my Inquisitor would look like a failure, "I went to the ball to prevent Celene be assassinated, but I let her be assassinated lol".

I'm still in doubt in what to do in my canon, the Truce empower my Inquisition(combined with denouncing Florianne, makes me feel like a master of the Game), but Gaspard is a bro and I would like him to be emperor, dont know what to do =/

 

I wish we had this option too. Paint Briala as the mastermind, then reconcile Celene and Gaspard's differences, and let him run the military while Celene handles the diplomats. Gaspard has no patience for the Game anyway, and he can remain in the field while Celene fends off nobles. All that is needed is for them to leave each other alone. 

 

It seems as though the two of them were on the verge of a breakthrough before Briala murdered their ambassadors. Killing her would set things right. 

[Gervaise]

I think the message from the Wicked Hearts was that everyone was conspiring like mad.   Celene and Gaspard were thinking of ways to get the eluvians away from Briala, Celene was plotting against Gaspard and Briala, Gaspard was plotting against Celene and Briala, and Briala was sneaking around trying to get the dirt on them both.   To begin with I felt bad about letting Celene die as it did seem like I was failing in some way but really it was all part of the game.  

 

I sacrificed Celene in much the same way as she had sacrificed her servants to become Empress and the elves of Halamshiral as a show of strength to the nobles.   As an elf I felt I was just getting payback since I did know about the elves of Halamshiral.    Also out of my 3 advisors and Cassandra, only Josephine seemed in favour of keeping Celene on the throne.    Cass and Cullen both wanted Gaspard and Lelianna suggested the arrangement whereby Briala actually got control.  

 

The ending with Celene and Briala seems to put things back to pretty much what Celene was offering Briala in the book.   In other words she gives her a title and probably continues with cautious reforms but Briala didn't seem to think it would last before and the closing line suggests as much.   The moment Celene got a whiff of revolt by the nobles she would backtrack on doing any more.

 

The ending with Gaspard and Briala has more radical reform in a quicker time scale with Briala knowing that she has the backing of the Inquisition, which is why we are told the nobles are holding fire.    Actually if anyone cared to ask, I would tell them I am doing them all a favour because by improving the lot of the elves it is undermining the inroads that the Qun have made into the lower classes of society.    Clearly no one has paid enough attention to Varric's story of Hawke or they would be aware of the danger.   Society depends on having elven servants so they can't simply kill them all.   If they can see their situation improving under the current ruler, they will have a vested interest in supporting them against the qunari.  

 

That said, the Gaspard/Briala combo only really makes sense and works the best if you are an elf.    Otherwise going for Gaspard alone or Celene/Briala is probably best.    Celene likes to think she has stayed in power for so long because of her mastery of the Game but if the book is anything to go by then it is Briala's work as spymaster that is the true reason.   Hence everything falling apart when she doesn't have Briala around.

[LobselVith8]

Hmmm.

I wonder if the Black Emporium would have an item that would give Briala the... equipment necessary for forming a child with Celene.

Possibly, but I would rather give such an item to Marquise Briala of the Dales, true ruler of Orlais. I'm sure she would find love with someone after freeing the Orlesian elves from tyranny. "I will fight for the others who have no one to champion their cause."

[Sports72Xtrm]

I had problems with Hawke being an absolute failure who failed at pretty much everything they did. They failed at stoping Pertice from starting violence with the Qunari, Hawke failed to save his mother, Hawke failed to stop Meredith from destroying Kirkwall, Hawke failed at stopping Anders, and Hawke failed to stop a Mage rebellion if Hawke sided with the Templars. The only thin Hawke succeeds is getting rich. There's a reason Hawke is known as a failure hero.

As Varric says

 

 

It's just... scrappy is better than flawless. I like heroes who try their damnedest, even if they fail a lot. It's easy to be valiant when you always win and everything goes your way. There's nothing great in that.

[TheKomandorShepard]

As Varric says

Maybe varric should try and then say if it is easy.

[Bad King]

Celene and Briala. Gaspard and Briala has Briala completely free reign and recklessly pulling down the system at a far too rapid a rate, it will inevitably end in rebellion and failure and disaster imo. 

 

That depends on how much the Orlesian nobility fear and respect the Inquisition. A Lavellan Inquisitor with high court approval for instance has the Orlesian nobility quaking under the shadow of the Inquisition if you go Gaspard+Briala.

 

In regards to whether G+B or C+B is better, I'm still undecided - Celene seems better than Gaspard to me as she seems interested in improving and advancing Orlesian culture (making it more meritocratic, educated and artistic) and lacks the counter-productive prejudices and war-mongering of Gaspard.

 

However, if Briala is partnered with Gaspard, she is the senior partner (rather than the junior partner as with Celene) and thus a more useful ally to the Inquisition and presumably she retains sole command of the eluvian network. She's also more capable of pushing for real change for the elves who are treated like dirt, and in a feudal system with a powerful nobility stuck in its ways, fear and revolution might be the only way to change things (particularly when Celene is more committed to holding onto power than she is to her ideals). Nevertheless, I feel uncomfortable with having Gaspard in charge, as while the elves would benefit, everybody else would probably be inconvenienced by having him ruling over them IMO.

[thesuperdarkone2]

That depends on how much the Orlesian nobility fear and respect the Inquisition. A Lavellan Inquisitor with high court approval for instance has the Orlesian nobility quaking under the shadow of the Inquisition if you go Gaspard+Briala.

 

In regards to whether G+B or C+B is better, I'm still undecided - Celene seems better than Gaspard to me as she seems interested in improving and advancing Orlesian culture (making it more meritocratic, educated and artistic) and lacks the counter-productive prejudices and war-mongering of Gaspard.

 

However, if Briala is partnered with Gaspard, she is the senior partner (rather than the junior partner as with Celene) and thus a more useful ally to the Inquisition and presumably she retains sole command of the eluvian network. She's also more capable of pushing for real change for the elves who are treated like dirt, and in a feudal system with a powerful nobility stuck in its ways, fear and revolution might be the only way to change things (particularly when Celene is more committed to holding onto power than she is to her ideals). Nevertheless, I feel uncomfortable with having Gaspard in charge, as while the elves would benefit, everybody else would probably be inconvenienced by having him ruling over them IMO.

Yeah, Gaspard being in charge is why I don't like going that ending. Sure elves get more rights but the ending implies the nobles are preparing a rebellion to overthrow her which will likely result in harsh retaliation for the elves as Gaspard doesn't seem the forgiving type. Also, Briala's views start and end with elves. She'd likely let Gaspard kill whoever he wanted if it wasn't an elf or let him start a war if he didn't kill any elves. 

[Bad King]

Yeah, Gaspard being in charge is why I don't like going that ending. Sure elves get more rights but the ending implies the nobles are preparing a rebellion to overthrow her which will likely result in harsh retaliation for the elves as Gaspard doesn't seem the forgiving type. Also, Briala's views start and end with elves. She'd likely let Gaspard kill whoever he wanted if it wasn't an elf or let him start a war if he didn't kill any elves. 

 

The epilogue states that the nobles are considering a rebellion, not necessarily preparing one (though this certainly seems likely if court approval is low). The slide for a Lavellan Inquisitor with high court approval for instance states the following:

 

They hesitate only because they fear the alliance between Briala and the elven Inquisitor.

And perhaps also because they yet respect the Inquisition. For now, the Empire remains at peace.

 

So it's still unclear how things will pan out, though high court approval makes things seem promising (at least for the time being). Regarding Briala's political views, while elven rights are certainly at the top of her priority list, I don't believe that she doesn't care about the other citizens of Orlais: during What Pride Has Wrought for example, she puts herself at the front of the Orlesian assault against Corypheus and tells you that she fights for Orlais as a whole (not only the elves).

[Sports72Xtrm]

When ever you get into bed with Orlais, whether you like it or not, you are playing the Grand Game. Whoever you put on the throne it doesn't matter if the nobles like them or hate them, what matters is they dance to your tune and you are in a position of posturing. Personally I think briala in power is the best, elf dependent on Inquisition support and alliance especially if they can placate the nobility, and an emperor who is leashed to your whims.