1452 réponses à ce sujet

[Semyaza82]

   Personally I don't really like mods that change sexuality purely because the odd incorrectly gendered pronoun would bug the hell out of me. That said I have zero issue with the idea in general or other people wanting to use them. Mods by definition let gamers do things the developers did not intend - this just seems like a storm in a teacup. Oh, and any one comparing any kind of mod to rape is just an idiot.

   Would I be offended by a mod making Dorian straight or bi? So long as it wasn't accompanied with a description that talking about 'fixing him' or something homophobic then not at all. Even then, if there were some kind of homophobic reationale behind creating the mod, I still really wouldn't care all that much. I could just not use it. I'd think the person who made it was an A-hole but that'd be about it.

[phaonica]

Racism is if you think one ethnicity is intrinsically better than another in some way. Disliking how someone looks is nothing more than an aesthetic preference, and making a mod that changes a fictional character is nothing more than catering to that preference in a specific way. Aesthetic preferences should indeed be mostly exempt from morality. 

 

"Racism is if you think one ethnicity is intrinsically better than another in some way".

 

Exactly - such as thinking white people are intrinsically better looking than black people.

 

No. I personally find white people more 'attractive' than black people.

 

I'm also a gay male. But I can still appreciate female beauty and do not wish to remove it.

 

Ditto for race.

 

It sounded to me like you were saying that "thinking white people are intristically better looking than black people" is not an aesthetic preference which should be exempt from morality, but is racism, which is inherently immoral.

[mikeymoonshine]

I really don't like people who attack other people over stuff like this. Yeah I get the complaints but can we please think about what we are doing before we do it. A mod in a game is not a good reason to start a crusade, not that I am saying you guys are doing that but people often go to far with these arguments. 

 

I get why people are upset though, sometimes these things can just get to you. I am not bothered that much by this but I remember seeing videos of people using that "pretty Aveline" mod really bothered me and I just don't even like to think about the white Isabela mod. 

Still I think a lot is to be said about intent. Wanting to romance a character in a game as a certain race or gender is not something I would compare to not being able to stand how ugly/dark skinned that female npc is. 

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

It sounded to me like you were saying that "thinking white people are intristically better looking than black people" is not an aesthetic preference which should be exempt from morality, but is racism, which is inherently immoral.

 

Being 'good looking' is not the same thing as being 'sexually attractive'.

[Dieb]

A-what's happening now...?

 

I think it's a slight difference to say black people are ugly because they're black; or saying "I'm more into white dudes/gals".

 

You know what's actually a lot more annoying? To make it a flippin' thing at all. I'd rather have clichée black features (as they are really as different as can be) made a certain type which people can openly, superficially dislike (as in not prefer sexually) in a fellow human, rather than isolating it into a group of the human race that may never be insulted and whatnot.

 

Anyways, don't mind me. Continue being righteous everybody.

[Ieldra]

Everyone seems to be a "professor" in moral behavior.  The likeminded ones group together and think they have the right to gang up on someone whom thinks differently.  Preferably a lone worlf one = much more fun and relatively safe to tear up.  Sad times where ending up with.....

Actually, I have studied that stuff, but that's beside the point. The problem is everyone's a would-be tyrant these days. Well, I know my value hierarchy, and freedom and live-and-let-live rank rather highly on it. There are things it's not my business to even care about, but I will always support free expression, *especially* where it isn't politically correct, because that's one of the areas where it's actually important. That we must live with being "offended" here and there, and cannot take action against it, is the price we pay for a free society. Free expression wouldn't be a value that needs defending if it wasn't opposed by the would-be tyrants of the world, regardless of whether it's in the area of morality or politics.

So, if you're oppressed, I'll walk the streets with you, but attempt to prescribe how I talk or how I entertain myself and I'll fight you.

[Scofield]

can i watch? 

[Grieving Natashina]

So, if you're oppressed, I'll walk the streets with you, but attempt to prescribe how I talk or how I entertain myself and I'll fight you.

This was brilliant and I feel the same way.  Well said.  

[phaonica]

I apologize if I was being rude. I'll try to be more considerate.

[Hazegurl]

Maybe this is gonna a be a bit harsh but who cares if someone doesn't like how you have fun, or what you mod, read, write, sex up, or what your racial preferences are.  Opinions cannot oppress you, they can't reach through your monitor and stop you from expressing yourself freely. I have sympathy for the Cass bi modder, but if they took down their mod then they restricted their own freedom. No one else did that to them. 

 

When the government bans you from social media sites, games, art, burn your books, create laws which restrict you to following one religion, and so on. When you can be hurt, imprisoned, et al for going against it. Then we can talk about what freedoms are actually being taken away. 

 

Me thinking and saying a modder is a racist for their Isabela mod or a homophobe (or just plain creepy) for a Dorian bi mod does nothing to take away a person's freedom and right to have it or do it. 

[Rykoth]

So people are "morally opposed to the mod."

 

Can we all just agree that bullying a person and running them out and calling them a rapist and insulting them is bad just because they did something you don't like?

[noxpanda]

So people are "morally opposed to the mod."

 

Can we all just agree that bullying a person and running them out and calling them a rapist and insulting them is bad just because they did something you don't like?

I think that was fairly universally agreed upon throughout the thread. Not seen anyone say different in the 20 odd pages i read anyhow.

[Grieving Natashina]

So far at least, no one seems to be arguing that folks that send those kinds of threats are in the right.  There has been some ideas about the reasoning, but I haven't seen any poster say that the harassers were right in how far they took this.

 

 I think it's safe to say that very few have said that the modder deserved that level of harassment and abuse.  Pretty much everyone in the thread more or less agrees that death threats, calling anyone a rapist and all those other rather horrific responses over a video game mod for PCs only is going too damned far.

[Fredward]

If it's fundamentally morally wrong to change someone's orientation to make them more accessible to a wider group of people it's always wrong no matter what you're changing it to. Is it wrong? I don't know. Not when it comes to fictional characters in a piece of entertainment. I'm not sure how I feel about the implications and I may or may not make some poor inferences about the kind of person who would create/use such a thing but it would depend on their motives. And I wouldn't try to stop them because it is THEIR entertainment and THEIR values.

 

Judge them? Maybe, probably. Harass and/or ridicule them? No.

[AresKeith]

So people are "morally opposed to the mod."

 

Can we all just agree that bullying a person and running them out and calling them a rapist and insulting them is bad just because they did something you don't like?

 

I'm sure everyone is in agreement with that

[Grieving Natashina]

I'm sure everyone is in agreement with that

One of the few times that you can say that on the forums.   I think we all know batshit crazy and this level of overreaction when we see it.

[AresKeith]

One of the few times that you can say that on the forums.   I think we all know batshit crazy and this level of overreaction when we see it.

 

Must be a blue moon outside

[Rykoth]

Then /thread It's that simple >.>

[Grieving Natashina]

Must be a blue moon outside

Nope, just barely in the waxing phase.  

[Super Drone]

Then /thread It's that simple >.>

 

So totally not.

 

People all agree that the desinger of the mod didn't deserve the reaction she got. That's all.

 

Whether she should have made the mod, whether the mod is offensive to certain groups of people or not, and whether the mod now opens the metaphorical door to justify making more mods that could offend other groups of people is the core of the debate.

[catabuca]

So totally not.

 

People all agree that the desinger of the mod didn't deserve the reaction she got. That's all.

 

Whether she should have made the mod, whether the mod is offensive to certain groups of people or not, and whether the mod now opens the metaphorical door to justify making more mods that could offend other groups of people is the core of the debate.

 

That surely can't be a topic of debate at all, because this was not the first mod of its kind. Flipping romance flags has been done in every BioWare game I've played. Changing a character's skin colour has been done in other games too. This mod didn't open the door to justifying or condemning either practice, it merely seems to be the one a lot of people dogpiled on, many of them handily ignoring everything that went before.

[Ieldra]

So totally not.

 

People all agree that the desinger of the mod didn't deserve the reaction she got. That's all.

 

Whether she should have made the mod, whether the mod is offensive to certain groups of people or not, and whether the mod now opens the metaphorical door to justify making more mods that could offend other groups of people is the core of the debate.

Pfft. If you make "It offends no one" the cornerstone of your morality, nothing meaningful will ever get done or said. I don't care one whit if anything I do offends someone, as long as it doesn't actually harm anyone.

 

If this post offends you, you've proven the point.

 

Why the heck should I even care what some other person does with the games they play? It doesn''t affect me in any way. It is not my business. If they mod a character I love to have an ideology I hate, so what? It isn't my game, it doesn't affect my game nor that of anyone else who doesn't take active steps to install the mod. It is Not My Business ™, damn it, and how I mod my game is not your business.

[tmp7704]

This seems a little dodgy, to me.
 
If I were to say I personally find men more attractive than women in general, would that make me a misogynist?

No, I think that'd make you hetero- or homosexual, depending on your gender (or bisexual if your attraction works both ways) But as far as I can tell sexual orientation doesn't work like that when it comes to skin colour, and so you're more likely to get a side-eye for expressing such preference vs the men/women thing.

[Super Drone]

That surely can't be a topic of debate at all, because this was not the first mod of its kind. Flipping romance flags has been done in every BioWare game I've played. Changing a character's skin colour has been done in other games too. This mod didn't open the door to justifying or condemning either practice, it merely seems to be the one a lot of people dogpiled on, many of them handily ignoring everything that went before.

 

In the Real World of Logic, that may be true. In the fantastic World of Internet Debate, however, you can make the argument that prior mods (like Equal Love) were necessitated by the fact that those earlier games had few (or no) same sex Romance options. This was the logic used by people who were okay with Equal Love, but lost their d**m minds when people modded Traynor/Cortez to be opposite sex available.

 

Now that everyone but straight females has the same number of options, a mod that makes a straight character Bisexual as okay while the opposite is not can't be justified under the logic that lesbian PCs don't get a choice. So the debate over whether it's okay to make a straight or gay character bi with a Mod starts all over again.

[Super Drone]

Pfft. If you make "It offends no one" the cornerstone of your morality, nothing meaningful will ever get done or said. I don't care one whit if anything I do offends someone, as long as it doesn't actually harm anyone.

 

If this post offends you, you've proven the point.

 

Why the heck should I even care what some other person does with the games they play? It doesn''t affect me in any way. It is not my business. If they mod a character I love to have an ideology I hate, so what? It isn't my game, it doesn't affect my game nor that of anyone else who doesn't take active steps to install the mod. It is Not My Business ™, damn it, and how I mod my game is not your business.

 

Sorry, I should have clarified that I personally don't care about the Mods or modding.  I was responding to the notion that the thread should be over because we all agree harassing the Modder is wrong. The thread has expanded well beyond that.