1452 réponses à ce sujet

[BabyPuncher]

What this issue boils down to is the simple fact that You Can't Make Them Want It.

 

Everybody has the right to walk down the street without being assaulted. The right to equality under the law. The right to medical care. The right to find whatever happiness they can within reasonable limits.

 

Nobody - Nobody - has the right to be wanted. The right to be loved. The right to feel desired. The right to have people find you interesting and compelling. Even the right to have friends. Nobody is entitled to that. Nobody has the right to demand it from anyone. No matter how fundamental those experiences are to living a happy life, nobody can demand that others must love them.

 

And if that means a great deal of people will be marginalized and even condemned to a life of unhappiness, (which it absolutely does), then so be it. The alternative would be an Orwellian abomination. 'It's not enough to respect people. You must love them.'

 

That what's advocates of 'equality' never seem to ever realize. 'Equality' does not mean one person is left alone, and the other is praised and idolized and loved. It means equal. And it's something only a morally deficient idiot would ever advocate.

[tmp7704]

And if that means a great deal of people will be marginalized and even condemned to a life of unhappiness, (which it absolutely does), then so be it. The alternative would be an Orwellian abomination. 'It's not enough to respect people. You must love them.'

The caveat here is, a lot of what we come to believe to be undesirable is a result of Orwellian-level indoctrination as it is. Just one that's working in the opposite direction, so to speak.

[BabyPuncher]

The caveat here is, a lot of what we come to believe to be undesirable is a result of Orwellian-level indoctrination as it is. Just one that's working in the opposite direction, so to speak.

 

Even if that's true, if it wasn't there, it would just be something else.

 

Suppose that, for example, thin people being considered desirable really is just societal indoctrination. (I don't believe it is, but that's beside the point.) If that entire history was removed, it would just be replaced by something else.

 

All cultures have ideals of beauty and desirability, do they not?

 

So instead of idolizing thin people over fat people, we might be idolizing big ears over small ears instead, for example. And everything would be pretty much exactly the same. With advertisments and internet blogs and hollywood movies simply making a fuss over ear size instead of body fat.

[o Ventus]

 

That what's advocates of 'equality' never seem to ever realize. 'Equality' does not mean one person is left alone, and the other is praised and idolized and loved. It means equal. And it's something only a morally deficient idiot would ever advocate.

Depends on the context of 'equality'. I do advocate legal equality for everybody. Fair representation and all that, but social equality is something else. 

 

And by social, I mean in interactions between people. Someone who's spent their life being an unrepentant d**k shouldn't get any special privileges over someone who's been nothing but good.

[tmp7704]

Even if that's true, if it wasn't there, it would just be something else.

That's kind of the point -- it makes the argument that "telling people to appreciate one another would be Orwellian" rather weak, as this "Orwellian" aspect is something that already happens and would happen in any case. So what it really boils down to, it's objecting to this particular flavor of the indoctrination... which raises the question why is this particular flavor viewed as more objectionable than the existing alternative, when it means more people would be appreciated instead of fewer.

[Draining Dragon]

Wait, what are we discussing now? Did I miss something? Something about Orwell and equality and indoctrination?

[BabyPuncher]

Before we go any further, you understand I'm giving you a great of deal leeway by arguing under the presumption this sort of indoctrination exists to a significant degree at all? Super.

 

That's not how it works.

 

Ideals work by comparisons. By the concepts of 'more' and 'less.' Of 'better' and 'worse.' More desirable. Less desirable. Without comparisons, the concept of 'appreciation' loses any meaning. Appreciated in comparison to what? What does not appreciating mean?

 

Any time there's a 'more,' there always has to be a 'less.'

 

You can't convince people to think everyone and everything is 'good' because it renders 'good' a meaningless concept. 'Think better of everyone.' Think better of everyone based on what?

[BioWareMod03]

Hey everyone. Let's keep avoid off-topic rabbit trails. Thank you.

[tmp7704]

Any time there's a 'more,' there always has to be a 'less.'

Not in this particular context. Unless you are trying to argue that telling people "X is good, Y is bad" somehow can work as efficiently as telling them "X and Y are good" instead, while involving lesser degree of indoctrination... and the latter would require more of it. In which case we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm guessing this is one of these 'off topic rabbit trails' the mod is referring to, so gonna end it here.

[Precursor Meta]

God you people are so strong minded about a video game. Take a chill pill, its just a game.

[wolfsite]

God you people are so strong minded about a video game. Take a chill pill, its just a game.

If that happened though we wouldn't have so many entertaining topics or people going around stating there opinion like it's fact and then things would be boring and we would have to do other things like play video games.

[Zjarcal]

All mods that change any characteristic of NPCs are total crap.

[Grieving Natashina]

If that happened though we wouldn't have so many entertaining topics or people going around stating there opinion like it's fact and then things would be boring and we would have to do other things like play video games.

I read that in Max's voice.  

[Raiil]

All mods that change any characteristic of NPCs are total crap.

 

 

I wouldn't go that far. I've seen a few that merely made outfit changes (there's a Leliana one that I actually liked) or possibly fixed a clipping issue.

 

Of course, that's peanuts next to the make x character a different race mods.

[Legion of 1337]

God you people are so strong minded about a video game. Take a chill pill, its just a game.

This is the kind of attitude that keeps games from being treated like other art forms because people like you complain when people take its messages seriously.

 

This game absolutely begs to be disected in terms of social values, philosophy and political stances, because it makes stances on all three counts.

[Precursor Meta]

This is the kind of attitude that keeps games from being treated like other art forms because people like you complain when people take its messages seriously.
 
This game absolutely begs to be disected in terms of social values, philosophy and political stances, because it makes stances on all three counts.

People like me? Oh you sound like such a Poindexter! Here take a chill pill, better yet take the whole bottle.

When discussion within a community leads to harassment then that's not a community I want to be a part of. So toxic!

[xkg]

This is the kind of attitude that keeps games from being treated like other art forms because people like you complain when people take its messages seriously.

 

This game absolutely begs to be disected in terms of social values, philosophy and political stances, because it makes stances on all three counts.

 

First you need consider a video game to be an art. There are people who don't.

For me video game is an product I buy for entertainment and nothing more. I don't play games for any messages and I avoid all games with too much political or philosophical themes in them (eg. Planescape Torment).

 

When I don't like the color of my car, I repaint it. When I don't like something in my game, I mod it.

[Ieldra]

First you need consider a video game to be an art. There are people who don't.

For me video game is an product I buy for entertainment and nothing more. I don't play games for any messages and I avoid all games with too much political or philosophical themes in them (eg. Planescape Torment).

 

When I don't like the color of my car, I repaint it. When I don't like something in my game, I mod it.

Why do you play DAI then? It is as political as they come?

 

Also, you can consider video games art without becoming embroiled in any real-world analogies they may feature. After all, most paintings I rate by nothing more than "Do I find it beautiful?" and they don't cease to be art because of it. In fact, as far as I can recall, most descriptions of the term don't involve political messages at all. It's primarily about aesthetics, representation of reality, free expression or invoking emotions, in various combinations thereof. 

 

Having said that, that doesn't make video games sacrosanct. Throughout history, people have made different versions of the stories they know, and I suspect at least sometimes for much of the same reasons why we mod our games. So really, it's nothing new and nothing about which to get up in arms.

[xkg]

Why do you play DAI then? It is as political as they come?

 

Simple politics like conflicts between factions, political relations etc. don't bother me. I play grand strategy games all the time. 

Political agendas, political parties, groups trying to convice others to their beliefs - that's something I am not inerested in.

For example - every time I hear about how elves are being opressed I just fall asleep. If I wanted to hear about problems like this one I would just turn on my tv and watch the news.

Besides that you are right. DA:I story is little bit too political that's why it isn't too high on my BIO games list.

 

 

Also, you can consider video games art without becoming embroiled in any real-world analogies they may feature.

 

That wouldn't help. Politics and philosophy - I just find them completely boring. Doesn't matter if it is completely fictional or based on/linked to anything in RL. 

 

After all, most paintings I rate by nothing more than "Do I find it beautiful?" and they don't cease to be art because of it. In fact, as far as I can recall, most descriptions of the term don't involve political messages at all. It's primarily about aesthetics, representation of reality, free expression or invoking emotions, in various combinations thereof. 

 

TBH, I am not an artistic person at all. Very few human creations invokes any kind of feeling in me. That may be just my interpretation of this term but for ma an art is something masterfully done.

For example I don't consider all music to be an art, only few particular pieces like Bach, Toccata and Fugue, Beatles Hey Jude and Let it Be, An American Trilogy sang by Elvis, Jimmy Page's guitar playing technique etc. On the other hand, even though I love some pop groups like Modern Talking I don't consider thier music to be an art.

 

Same goes for other creations like paintings. Matejko's Battle of Grunwald, Leonardo da Vinci - yes, that's an Art.

Van Gogh, Picasso ? Pretentious and weak at best, nothing more.

Sh!t smeared onto a canvas ? http://en.wikipedia....y_fluids_in_art Some people consider it to be an art. For me it is disgusting piece of ... sh!t (lol). But hey, I am not going to lecture anyone how disgusting it is. If people like to do it and others like to watch and admire it then I have no problem with that.

 

Having said that, that doesn't make video games sacrosanct. Throughout history, people have made different versions of the stories they know, and I suspect at least sometimes for much of the same reasons why we mod our games. So really, it's nothing new and nothing about which to get up in arms.

 

I agree with you here.

[Legion of 1337]

First you need consider a video game to be an art. There are people who don't.

Those people are wrong.

[Seraphim24]

I guess I just find it weird that supposedly this is supposed to be a culture of acceptance, modding things you dislike or like into a different thing.

 

On the other hand, I feel it would be a massive waste of time to pre-occupy yourselves with this kind of thing since it's pretty much completely harmless, especially when you don't even know about half these things.

[Kurt M.]

Don't like it? Don't romance it.

Don't like it? Don't install the mod.

 

Is it really that difficult to understand?

[TevinterSupremacist]

Those people are wrong.

Whether or not a video game is art and whether or not there's any merit in analysing it as an artform are two different questions.

 

Yes, by definition video games are art. And so are the boxes that chocolate cookies are packaged in. Learn to eat the cookie and move on.

[Legion of 1337]

Whether or not a video game is art and whether or not there's any merit in analysing it as an artform are two different questions.

Yes, by definition video games are art. And so are the boxes that chocolate cookies are packaged in. Learn to eat the cookie and move on.

Dragon Age is less like a cookie and more like a short novel wouldnt you say?