1452 réponses à ce sujet

[Heidirs]

You don't really even need real life examples since Dorian's personal story touches on this.

 

I think that would be the only mod I would personally find extremely creepy since it touches so much so on his backstory with his father. With that mod, that would mean Dorian's father DID succeed with "curing" him with blood magic, and any relationship he might have with a woman was only because someone ripped into his mind and remolded it as they saw fit.

 

Except a mod that changes a plot flag so a female Inquisitor can romance Dorian doesn't actually change Dorian, it just changes the plot flag. Dorian will still say he prefers men, will still refer to the Inquisitor as "he" when speaking about the romance. Dorian himself hasn't changed at all.

 

 

 

With that said, I wanted to experience the Dorian romantic story line.  I love him, bought the game, and didn't want to miss out on a piece of a character I adore.  Instead of a mod, I just made a male character specifically for the romance.  I, the real person behind the avatar, felt odd and dysfunctional (personal experience with is has no bearing on anyone else's experiences), so I quit that character.  Romantic Dorian will unfortunately have to be experienced through pervy, voyeuristic watching of other people's youtube vids.

 

That's the thing, it's not so simple as just rolling a character that fits the LI's sexual attraction. Some people just can't get into playing a character that they can't personally identify with. A mod makes it so players can romance whoever they want regardless of gender.

 

 

I disagree that the mod actually changes anything, though. Sera is still who she was written to be, regardless of any modifications that are made to the core game. A mod just allows someone to experience her story for the entertainment that it is. There's nothing wrong with someone fantasizing that an interaction might go a certain way. I'm not certain that I agree modding a game is the equivalent of corrective violence. That would make fanfiction and deviantart more or less the same thing, and I actually have a dog in that particular fight. Fantasies don't necessarily make us dangerous as people. There's a lot of psychoanalysis behind what does, but that's well out of the scope of this discussion. 

 

So that leads me to question why some are so against this, on both sides. Is it a revenge thing? Insecurity? Something else? "I don't want you to even be able to *think* about this because it threatens my security" sounds like a seriously scary way to live, especially about game content. Thought police are never a good idea. 

 

I'm pretty secure in the knowledge that Sera isn't bi. She isn't straight. She's a sapphist, and her writer has even clarified her dialogue to the point of absurdity to make sure we know exactly where her preferences lie. No mod is going to change that, just like no mod is going to change Cassandra. I don't find my own sapphism threatened just because a man I don't even know might find Sera interesting and want to explore the full range of her dialogue options with a modification to his game. It's not going to suddenly make me question whether I should be shipping her with a dude in my imagination or not. However, the flip side of the coin is that I'm not going to stop fantasizing that Cassandra and Leliana might be able to build a thing in the absence of a male inquisitor who romanced her. Or reading that amazing story I found that someone wrote about her with a female Trevalyn and somehow all the other heroes from games past in attendance (and even Sera with Merrill, what brilliance. really great, that one). 

 

That's the best thing about imagination. Anything is possible. We all need to remember that imagination is what brings us these rich experiences. Stifling it, in any way, isn't progress. 

 

So much, this!

[Exaltation]

I don't see the problem considering romance is optional,and mods are optional,and what someone does with their DAI copy has no affect on others lol.

[Killdren88]

I don't see the problem considering romance is optional,and mods are optional,and what someone does with their DAI copy has no affect on others lol.

 

People are offended regardless. Like being offended over Fanfiction. They would be less stressed out if they just pretended it didn't exist and those who want to use it use it.

[Urzon]

Except a mod that changes a plot flag so a female Inquisitor can romance Dorian doesn't actually change Dorian, it just changes the plot flag. Dorian will still say he prefers men, will still refer to the Inquisitor as "he" when speaking about the romance. Dorian himself hasn't changed at all.

I know. I was talking from strictly a roleplaying perspective. Since changing a plot flag like gender wouldn't be consider part of the story by most people, RP wise, we're only left with a couple of ways of explaining why Dorian suddenly considers the female Inquisitor with romantic interest even though he states to be solely interested in men in that way.

[Heidirs]

I know. I was talking from strictly a roleplaying perspective. Since changing a plot flag like gender wouldn't be consider part of the story by most people, RP wise, we're only left with a couple of ways of explaining why Dorian suddenly considers the female Inquisitor with romantic interest even though he states to be solely interested in men in that way.

 

I would think that most people who use the mod don't think of it as changing Dorian's sexuality, just breaking the game so that Dorian "mistakes" them for his preferred gender. Perhaps some people do think of it the other way, and that is disturbing. But I don't think shaming the mod for the few people who do take it that way is right. I imagine most people just want it for the experience, not to change who Dorian is. 

[Urzon]

I would think that most people who use the mod don't think of it as changing Dorian's sexuality, just breaking the game so that Dorian "mistakes" them for his preferred gender. Perhaps some people do think of it the other way, and that is disturbing. But I don't think shaming the mod for the few people who do take it that way is right. I imagine most people just want it for the experience, not to change who Dorian is.

Oh, I have nothing against the Cassandra mod, its creator, or any like minded mods that people might use. I just would find the possibility of a bi Dorian mod a bit creepy given his backstory is all. I'm a bit too much of a role-player when I'm playing, so it's a bit hard for me to totally divorce myself from the character(s) like that, but it would almost feel like I'm taking advantage of him if I did so. To me, to wouldn't be much "Me, the human behind the screen, is breaking the game", but more like "My character, or someone else in the story, broke Dorian".

People are free to play their game as the wish though.

[Draining Dragon]

At this point my position is, mods shouldn't be allowed to anyone. 
Also about the double standards, I do not think that is it. It is the same to say that a rich person should be helped with food money because the poor one has that great privilege. Things like this IRL are not black and white, there are social levels of privilege to everything.
What you can say is that maybe changing some character sexuality in your game is irrelevant to real life and that I can agree, I mostly only care about the official stance from bioware and not mods at all. Although I understand why changing Dorian to bi is not the same when it comes to Cassandra, when you compare that to real life.

You can't compare the amount of money a person has to sexuality. They're two completely different things.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

What's happening here? Oh, God...

 

I'm out of here!

 

[Super Drone]

Because straight people are so opressed by gay people and there were and still are attempts to "fix" them like in case of gay people (main reason why "degaying" mods are so problematic). Unless you're corrective rape survivor like myself, please don't talk to me about "double standards", because that term can only refer to something that despite being similar, leads to different treatment. I think I profoundly explained already why situation of gay and straight people isn't similar.

 

Um, no? Surviving Assault is not the barrier to entry on having opinions on equality.

 

Also No. Being oppressed or discriminated against doesn't give you liberties as compensation. It is wrong to treat LBGT people worse than other people just because they are different. It is wrong (if not equally wrong) to treat them better than everyone else, because treating a group of people differently than everyone else assures that said group will never be accepted as the same as everyone else (which, when you strip away the cultural baggage and bigotry, LBGT people are in all ways that matter).

 

 

You either respect the sexuality of others, or you don't. If you choose to respect one type of sexuality and not others, then you are a bigot. Plain and simple.

[SwobyJ]

Um, no? Surviving Assault is not the barrier to entry on having opinions on equality.

 

Also No. Being oppressed or discriminated against doesn't give you liberties as compensation. It is wrong to treat LBGT people worse than other people just because they are different. It is wrong (if not equally wrong) to treat them better than everyone else, because treating a group of people differently than everyone else assures that said group will never be accepted as the same as everyone else (which, when you strip away the cultural baggage and bigotry, LBGT people are in all ways that matter).

 

 

You either respect the sexuality of others, or you don't. If you choose to respect one type of sexuality and not others, then you are a bigot. Plain and simple.

 

The rise of equity over equality in modern society disturbs me.

[Dinkledorf]

I know. I was talking from strictly a roleplaying perspective. Since changing a plot flag like gender wouldn't be consider part of the story by most people, RP wise, we're only left with a couple of ways of explaining why Dorian suddenly considers the female Inquisitor with romantic interest even though he states to be solely interested in men in that way.

Bad eyes?

[giveamanafish...]

You know that situation of straight and gay people is different?

 

Gay people are repressed minority (obviously depending where you live, but remember that people that play this game are from around the whole world; where I live, gay people don't have the same rights and hate crimes are common - I fell victim of it as well), straight people are majority that make the rules for us. Homophobia is a real thing, heterophobia is not (when was the last time you've heard of straight person beaten to death by gays for being straight? or straight woman "corrective" raped by lesbian to "convert" her to lesbianism?).

 

Cultural context is what makes the idea of changing gay character straight (or bi) offensive, while it's no longer true when you simply reverse it. For comparison, think about whiteface and blackface and why it wouldn't be the same.

I don't disagree with you. I was asking whathisname why he made the following statement, apparently as a example of hypocrisy, in the context of a discussion about a mod that made a hetero character bisexual.

"It's "okay" to make Cassandra and Cullen bisexual because that's somehow pro-LGBT, but not okay to make Sera available to male PC because that's an offense towards Lesbians."

[Legion of 1337]

You know that situation of straight and gay people is different?

Gay people are repressed minority (obviously depending where you live, but remember that people that play this game are from around the whole world; where I live, gay people don't have the same rights and hate crimes are common - I fell victim of it as well), straight people are majority that make the rules for us. Homophobia is a real thing, heterophobia is not (when was the last time you've heard of straight person beaten to death by gays for being straight? or straight woman "corrective" raped by lesbian to "convert" her to lesbianism?).

Cultural context is what makes the idea of changing gay character straight (or bi) offensive, while it's no longer true when you simply reverse it. For comparison, think about whiteface and blackface and why it wouldn't be the same.

Since A) im not part of the problem and am not responsible for the entirety of society, please tell me why i should give a **** that a bisexual sera mod could be offensive.

[Urzon]

Bad eyes?

I can imagine a twisted Big Bad Wolf as Grandma scene playing out the first time Dorian and the female Inquisitor sleep together if that was the case.

Dorian: My Inquisitor, what big... pecs(?) you have.

Dorian: My Inquisitor, what wide child bearing hips you have.

Dorian: My Inquisitor, what... HOLY MAKER IS THAT WHAT I THINK IT IS!? /flee

Dorian afterwards...

[Mihura]

Um, no? Surviving Assault is not the barrier to entry on having opinions on equality.

 

Also No. Being oppressed or discriminated against doesn't give you liberties as compensation. It is wrong to treat LBGT people worse than other people just because they are different. It is wrong (if not equally wrong) to treat them better than everyone else, because treating a group of people differently than everyone else assures that said group will never be accepted as the same as everyone else (which, when you strip away the cultural baggage and bigotry, LBGT people are in all ways that matter).

 

 

You either respect the sexuality of others, or you don't. If you choose to respect one type of sexuality and not others, then you are a bigot. Plain and simple.

 

Or maybe you lack empathy do understand why some people take this kind of things serious, especially with traumatic experiences IRL. You really do not need much to understand this simple concept.

I am queer but I really do not care what you do in your game but I sure understand, their point of view and why this is so important to the said forum user.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

I can imagine a twisted Big Bad Wolf as Grandma scene playing out the first time Dorian and the female Inquisitor sleep together if that was the case.

Dorian: My Inquisitor, what big... pecs(?) you have.

Dorian: My Inquisitor, what wide child bearing hips you have.

Dorian: My Inquisitor, what... HOLY MAKER IS THAT WHAT I THINK IT IS!? /flee

Dorian afterwards...

 

I guess he would have preferred something else...

 

[Super Drone]

Or maybe you lack empathy do understand why some people take this kind of things serious, especially with traumatic experiences IRL. You really do not need much to understand this simple concept.

I am queer but I really do not care what you do in your game but I sure understand, their point of view and why this is so important to the said forum user.

 

Personal Bias does not justify public judgements. I can respect the experiences of a person while still understanding those experiences don't factor into what the rest of us should be doing.

[Mihura]

Personal Bias does not justify public judgements. I can respect the experiences of a person while still understanding those experiences don't factor into what the rest of us should be doing.

 

No, I do not think you do. Just let us leave it at that.

[Super Drone]

I don't think I will.

 

The  concept of "Corrective rape" is the worst kind of barbarism I can conceive of. A victim of that is entitled to a great many things. None of them are getting a pass at ethical hypocrisy. Because no one gets a pass at that.

[Legion of 1337]

No, I do not think you do. Just let us leave it at that.

Why do their experiences need to have any bearing on me?

[o Ventus]

 

Cultural context is what makes the idea of changing gay character straight (or bi) offensive, while it's no longer true when you simply reverse it. For comparison, think about whiteface and blackface and why it wouldn't be the same.

"Cultural context" my ass. This is a game made by a Canadian company, marketed towards a modern Western audience. If the primary audience were religious zealots stuck in the 1950's, I would understand.

 

The point about blackface and whiteface is incredibly dumb. Even if someone doesn't get offended by "whiteface", that doesn't make it any less racist. Also, are you kidding me with this? There's a whole host of things white people aren't "allowed" (for lack of a better term) to do, because they're stereotyped as being for minorities. Unless your name is Eminem, you shouldn't ever try to rap if you're white, you'll be seen as a racist poser.

 

This whole "gay people can't be a**holes towards straight people" and "you can't be racist towards white people" idea is stupid and backwards. Everyone has the capacity to be an a**hole to anyone. Just because white and straight people aren't a minority group doesn't make offensive things against them any less offensive.