36 réponses à ce sujet

[Basher of Glory]

Since I started the game the first time in 2006, I consider the fights against the thugs in act 1 as one of the hardest parts in the game.

 

Those on the streets might be acceptable, because they can't use their backstabbing as extensively as the ones we encounter in the warehouse and especially in Fihelis' estate.

 

I always wondered, how an "effortless" mob can make so much trouble. I realize, that they are not really hard hitters and it's only their backstabbing which wears the party down. 

 

But then they seem to be

 

1) extremely tough

2) gifted with godlike reflex- and even fortitude saves

3) masters of dodging

 

Currently I play a dex-fighter with two shortswords. The quest after the thugs in Old Owl Well showed, that she is good, as she had no problems to stand against dozens of orcs. Now, this quest is AFTER the thugs and should provide harder enemies, but it does not.

Troll = 3 or 4 seconds. Thug = many more....

 

The only party which had no problems at all against the thugs was one with a cleric / StL, because she could cast "true seeing" and thus, attack the hidden thugs before they could backstab her or someone else.

 

What are your opinions? Are these fights out of balance and those thugs really OP?

 

 

NOTE:

I have no problems to win the fights - the one way or the other. I'd rather have a discussion about OP or not OP than one about tactical solutions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[unclejoe1917]

Since I started the game the first time in 2006, I consider the fights against the thugs in act 1 as one of the hardest parts in the game.

 

Those on the streets might be acceptable, because they can't use their backstabbing as extensively as the ones we encounter in the warehouse and especially in Fihelis' estate.

 

I always wondered, how an "effortless" mob can make so much trouble. I realize, that they are not really hard hitters and it's only their backstabbing which wears the party down. 

 

But then they seem to be

 

1) extremely tough

2) gifted with godlike reflex- and even fortitude saves

3) masters of dodging

 

Currently I play a dex-fighter with two shortswords. The quest after the thugs in Old Owl Well showed, that she is good, as she had no problems to stand against dozens of orcs. Now, this quest is AFTER the thugs and should provide harder enemies, but it does not.

Troll = 3 or 4 seconds. Thug = many more....

 

The only party which had no problems at all against the thugs was one with a cleric / StL, because she could cast "true seeing" and thus, attack the hidden thugs before they could backstab her or someone else.

 

What are your opinions? Are these fights out of balance and those thugs really OP?

 

 

NOTE:

I have no problems to win the fights - the one way or the other. I'd rather have a discussion about OP or not OP than one about tactical solutions.

I believe you are referring to the thugs involved in the arms shipment and the warehouse, correct?  If so, I agree.  That is a pretty brutal gauntlet to have to get through.  A hoard of baddies that can take a hit, surround you and hit you with sneak attacks is never a good time.  

I wouldn't say these fights are out of balance simply because I have always lived to make it through the game, but they can be a grind since it brings something more akin to a boss fight with the encounter frequency of a cave of goblins. I would say that it's their numbers and nature of their tactics that make the overpowering more than the strength of any one individual. 

[Thorsson64]

Two ways you can deal with them that I recall:

 

1. Have excellent Spot skills, buffed as far as you can (Bards are good for this!)

 

2. Be a better sneaker than they are so they can't see you

 

Otherwise you just need to move very slowly and carefully and heal a lot.

[Basher of Glory]

Right, this warehouse and the following scenario in Fihelis' Estate.

 

The single thug, directly confronted, might not do too much damage after he landed his backstab. So you are correct in regard of their numbers.

 

But then...

they are all somewhat hard to hit. They evade almost everything. Even their spellcasters stand unharmed after a series of fireballs.

I just wish, my spellcasters had evades like them.

 

The spell "phantasmal killer" requires high will AND fortitude to save against it, two traits which are notoriously low for a rogue type. Nevertheless, it fails about 50%.

"Stinking cloud" can be negated by fortitude. For these thugs it is almost effectless, they simply ignore it to about 90%.

 

Check the fortitude and will of your level 8  rogue and you see, what I mean...

 

@Thorson64

As I wrote, I win these fights. Sometimes by sneaking around, sometimes by using "true seeing", sometimes by using "greater invisibility" ...

you name it.

Before I wrote this, I've read old posts from these years and found many like "....stuck...can't win....", which are hard to find about the endfight and other "hard" bossfights. This is why I'd like to discuss balance related stuff here.

[Arkalezth]

I'll start by saying that I haven't played the OC in ages, although I've been considering a replay lately. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

Those enemies are indeed unbalanced, and I remember that part as the hardest of the OC. That said, it may be more a matter of a substantial and sudden change in difficulty in relation to the rest of the OC, which is easy for the most part, rather than those enemies being just plain OP by general NWN2's standards.

If you're using spells with a reflex save against rogues, expect to fail most of the time. Similarly, any enemy has a bigger chance of getting a lucky roll if you use spells that allow two saves, like Phantasmal Killer. Stinking cloud should work fine, though, assuming they're pure rogues and not protected against mind effects, and assuming your spell DC is good enough in the first place.

True Seeing sees through invisibility, but not through normal (i.e. non-magical) stealth. Only spot and listen matter then.

I don't know if I've answered your question. If I play through the OC again, I'll try to remember to post my impressions here when I reach this point.

[Basher of Glory]

Again learnt something. I didn't know, that true seeing wouldn't help against non-magical stealth.

 

For the spells:

All my mains have been either non-caster or that one bard I was writing about in another thread. I have only Quara to cast and at that level her "best" spell is the phantasmal killer (PK). All her other spells are fire based and can be avoided by reflex.

 

For spot and listen: Neeshka has her spot skill always maxed and at that level she has something around 10, IIRC. Nevertheless, I "see" them coming but can't attack, so I assume, that either listen or spot were too low. Reciprocally that means, too, that these thugs must have hide / move silently skills beyond anything normal at this level, especially at their level which is "effortless", when we examine them.

 

I just wonder, if this "design" of a quest-series was really intentional or just totally out of the order.

[Thorsson64]

IIRC True Seeing does work against non-magical stealth in PnP. Not sure whether bug or deliberate change in NWN2; probably the latter seeing how easy it is to get and use the spell.

 

Surely Sand is available? Elanee? Or did you decide not to take these? The trouble with Qara is that Fireballs, for example, are capable of 'friendly fire' (depending on difficulty level IIRC), which is why she's my least favourite caster. Magic Missile would work better here - it never misses.

 

The can see but not attack is down to a bug I believe - NWN2 has several bugs around sneaking and invisibility. You didn't really see them, which is why you can't attack.

 

If you have a character with Improved Uncanny Dodge you could get them to walk into the ambushes while others use ranged attacks.

[Basher of Glory]

They are about level 8 and far from the point, when Sand becomes available.

[unclejoe1917]

They are about level 8 and far from the point, when Sand becomes available.

I just finished off that quest.  I had Kelghar lead the assault while Qara, Elanee and my bard all did their thing.  It was surprisingly easy.  I noticed that you said you are a DEX fighter.  Has your character not yet "bloomed" to the point he or she is dealing big league damage?  Qara and Elanee nuked most of them so fast, Khelgar didn't really even have much to do.  I also see you are bringing Neeshka to this fight.  She is generally not much of an asset in regards to combat.

[Arkalezth]

Just clarifying a couple of things:
 

I noticed that you said you are a DEX fighter.  Has your character not yet "bloomed" to the point he or she is dealing big league damage?

That never happens for such a character. Unless you're counting overpowered weapons, but then it's the weapons' damage what's blooming, not the character's.
 

'friendly fire' (depending on difficulty level IIRC)

Yeah, friendly fire is on on hardcore difficulty and higher.

Don't limit your casters to damage spells, anyway. Sometimes it's better to disable a group of enemies and let the rest of the party finish them, rather than to try to damage them with your wizard. Or just focus on party buffs. Of course, this assumes you have such spells in your book in the first place.
 

The can see but not attack is down to a bug I believe - NWN2 has several bugs around sneaking and invisibility. You didn't really see them, which is why you can't attack.

I can confirm this. If your character spots/hears a hidden enemy, you can attack. If the enemy is shadowy and you can't attack, your character isn't aware of their presence.

[kevL]

If your character spots/hears a hidden enemy, you can attack. If the enemy is shadowy and you can't attack, your character isn't aware of their presence.

i always felt this was 'cheating'; ie. seeing that shadowy figure.

It seems to me sometimes that they really are invisible, unseen at all. Could it be that when they're shadowy that means a different party member sees them, just not the controlled PC ?

[Arkalezth]

Yeah, you don't always see the shadowy figure; sometimes they're correctly hidden and you can't see them OOC either, until they attack.

Could it be that when they're shadowy that means a different party member sees them, just not the controlled PC ?

I'd have to check to confirm this, but I think I've seen the shadows when playing solo.

[Tchos]

I have some data to submit on that matter.  In one of my experiments, I had an unintended gap in the wall.  Most of the wall blocked line of sight, but the doorframes did not, so when I walked my character past them, the shadowy figures on the other side would light up suddenly when LOS was no longer blocked, and go dark again when my character went past far enough.

[Arkalezth]

That doesn't look like the same thing. Shadowy hidden characters can be in your line of sight with no objects in between. It just means you haven't passed the spot/listen check.

[Basher of Glory]

For me it's like this:

 

1) Bug

 

A thug walks down the hallway towards me or my partymembers. The thug is kind of concealed, but visible. Neither a caster nor a melee fighter can target the thug. Then the thug tries to do a backstab and from that moment he is a possible target.

 

2) The correct way:

 

My main with low spot-skill is ahead of the party. Suddenly a thug comes out of nowhere and attacks (= backstab, sneak attack) . From now on this thug is a target for all.

 

 

Again "tactics":

 

Really I don't want to sound arrogant, but I believe that there is no tactic I didn't use.

Be it an invisible Quara nuking them, covered by Elanee with a second nuke, be it a suicidal storm with Khelgar leading and Neeshka biting their @sses or be it...whatever. I did it all. I win and march forward to the next quest.

 

This discussion should be only about the "OP-ness" of these thugs and - btw - those in act II in the sage's estate.

[Thorsson64]

They are hard fights; certainly compared with those around, but I don't see them as overpowered.

[kevL]

I remember playing extra-super-careful when doing Fihelis' Estate. but OP? no

it's tuffer, but mostly a psychological thing ... I've seen this in another game, where you - as a player - get emotionally brutalized, but still win np. "winning" then becomes overcoming oneself, seeing through the sham

[GCoyote]

I remember playing extra-super-careful when doing Fihelis' Estate. but OP? no
it's tuffer, but mostly a psychological thing ... I've seen this in another game, where you - as a player - get emotionally brutalized, but still win np. "winning" then becomes overcoming oneself, seeing through the sham

I think that is definitely a factor. You become conditioned to the average fights during these quests, the ones you can win without buffing. Then you walk into the Estate fight and now suddenly you have to start planning ahead.

[Arkalezth]

This may not be related to the main question, but I forgot to address something:

I always wondered, how an "effortless" mob can make so much trouble.

Challenge rating is not a good way to measure an enemy's difficulty. To use the same example I used in some other thread, a goblin and a dragon can perfectly have the same CR in theory, but as you can imagine, one will likely be harder than the other in practice.

[Thorsson64]

CR sucks. It's (almost) official - well it's recognised as being the case by just about everyone.

 

In any case, what is challenging to one party may be "simples" to another.

[Tchos]

That wasn't the point of my dragon example at all.  I did the test to show that improperly-set CR was the problem.  When the CR is set according to the Monster Manual for a monster that hasn't been altered from its base stats, it should be fine as an estimate of relative difficulty.  When you start altering the properties of the creature, you need to appropriately estimate what the new CR should be.  The problem that I've seen is that many builders don't do that, and I imagine some particular instances in the official campaigns were missed as well.

[Basher of Glory]

I think that is definitely a factor. You become conditioned to the average fights during these quests, the ones you can win without buffing. Then you walk into the Estate fight and now suddenly you have to start planning ahead.

That's a good point.

[Arkalezth]

@Tchos:

I wasn't referring to your test. IIRC, on that other thread (I don't remember which one it was), I used the goblin and dragon examples to illustrate how two different enemies can, for whatever reason, show the same CR, even though one may be much more dangerous and/or difficult to kill than the other. I didn't go into specifics as to why this happens; I'm just saying it does.

[unclejoe1917]

A lot of it has to do with the way the two sides match up.  There are certain fights where a 10th level wizard fares better than a fighter of the same level and vice versa, much like boxing.  Ali destroys Foreman, Foreman destroys Norton but, contrary to what those results would lead you to think, Norton breaks Ali's jaw with an awkward fighting style that gave Ali fits. 

[Dann-J]

I suspect sneakers show up black when you've heard them but not yet seen them. You can't target them directly, but you can throw an area-of-effect spell at their feet (although rogues tend to evade such spells).

 

Rogues tend to have poor fortitude saves, so I generally tackle groups of them with choking powder or wands of stinking cloud. At least some of them will end up dazed, reducing the number you have to deal with at any one time.