36 réponses à ce sujet

[Tchos]

I wasn't referring to your test. IIRC, on that other thread (I don't remember which one it was), I used the goblin and dragon examples to illustrate how two different enemies can, for whatever reason, show the same CR, even though one may be much more dangerous and/or difficult to kill than the other. I didn't go into specifics as to why this happens; I'm just saying it does.

 

I may not have seen the thread you're talking about, then. 

 

The reason I'm pressing this point is so that more people understand the effects of an incorrectly-set CR, in hopes that such a mistake won't occur as often, and thus so that they're consistently useful for players to look at. The only practical reason two enemies of radically different power levels would show the same CR is if someone set them wrong, such as starting with a goblin blueprint and changing its appearance to a dragon and raising its levels manually without changing the CR.

 

Also, the CR is a major factor in determining how much XP you get for killing it, which is another reason to make sure it's set correctly.

 

Unclejoe: The 10th level wizard vs the 10th level fighter example is not exactly germane to CR, since it's a measure of the party's ability to defeat the creature, not an individual member of the party.  The rules, including CR, assume a well-rounded party of 4 members as a baseline.  If you have something else, then you need to take that into account mentally.  The system works as an estimate when it's used as directed.

[I_Raps]

The spell "phantasmal killer" requires high will AND fortitude to save against it, two traits which are notoriously low for a rogue type. Nevertheless, it fails about 50%.

This is a misinterpretation. The first save (will) avoids the effect completely. IF this save fails, then the fort save reduces the kill to 3d6 damage.

It's a pretty *meh* spell unless you've got Spell Focus (Illusion) etc. (and even then ...). It's only lvl 4, and if I remember correctly, Qara's CHA bonus is +3, so the save is a 17. If those rogues have +3 Will and Fort saves (pretty low), they will only need to roll a 14+ on either of two tries. You only have a 42% chance of killing them (they will certainly survive 3d6 hits); even if their saves are only +2 you still only have a 49% chance. If your usage is only failing only 50% of the time, count yourself lucky.

Repeated application of Stoneskin will help Qara much more than all the Phantasmal Killers she can muster.

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As for the OP-ness of these encounters, I think it has more to do with the layout of the locations and the fact that you can easily find yourself between two or more active groups.

[Arkalezth]

This is the thread I was talking about (I used rats instead of goblins in the example): http://forum.bioware...-ec/?p=18449500

Maybe this is more noticeable in PW, where you can travel around areas and encounter enemies of a variety of levels. To put a practical example without dragons, I play on a PW where I have a couple of level 20 characters. A level 1 goblin with 5-10 HP is "effortless". An orc barbarian in his mid 10s with 100 or 200 HP and good damage per hit is also "effortless". I can indeed kill both without much effort, but they're obviously not the same, and a group of the latter can still be dangerous.

[Tchos]

Well, partially that seems to be the nature of translating a quantitative datum (the CR number) to a qualitative one (the category "effortless"), since there are only 5 named categories.  What the numbers really mean is that an equally-matched CR should result in no party deaths and consume only 20% of the party's resources.

 

But if you're talking about playing solo on a PW, then all bets are off, because the CR system is based on a 4-member party, and that's what it shows you even if you're a single character.  You'd have to do some calculations to translate the CR into something appropriate for a level 20 solo character.

[Arkalezth]

Just an example of how the CR is not a good indicative of an encounter's difficulty. The orcs are harder than the goblins, party or solo. Similarly, two creatures may have the same level and/or CR (PW or module, solo or not) but not be equally powerful, etc. The enemies this thread is about are just one of many examples.

We can discuss the little details to death, but the point is: Don't believe an encounter is "easy" or "impossible" just because the CR says so.

[Dann-J]

Indeed. CR in the monster manuals tends to increase when a creature has special abilities or damage reduction. If you happen to be immune to a particular special ability, or have the correct weapon to overcome damage reduction, then an apparently 'difficult' enemy may prove to be very easy.

[Tchos]

My points are:

1. For a player, CR is a useful heuristic under the conditions that it is set correctly, and that you're playing with something like the 3.5 default 4-member party, with gear equivalent to the expected party wealth for its level as described in the DM guide.  Heuristics are not always correct.  Outliers can throw them off.  They're still useful more often than not.
2. For a builder, CR should be set correctly unless they want their players to get less or more XP than expected.  CR is a useful heuristic to determine what you can safely throw at the player so that it's not an absurdly easy or absurdly unfair fight.

[Basher of Glory]

This is a misinterpretation. The first save (will) avoids the effect completely. IF this save fails, then the fort save reduces the kill to 3d6 damage.

It's a pretty *meh* spell unless you've got Spell Focus (Illusion) etc. (and even then ...). It's only lvl 4, and if I remember correctly, Qara's CHA bonus is +3, so the save is a 17. If those rogues have +3 Will and Fort saves (pretty low), they will only need to roll a 14+ on either of two tries. You only have a 42% chance of killing them (they will certainly survive 3d6 hits); even if their saves are only +2 you still only have a 49% chance. If your usage is only failing only 50% of the time, count yourself lucky.

Repeated application of Stoneskin will help Qara much more than all the Phantasmal Killers she can muster.

.......................................................

As for the OP-ness of these encounters, I think it has more to do with the layout of the locations and the fact that you can easily find yourself between two or more active groups.

Ok, I see my fault. I did not notice the "IF" in the description... (there is none )

 

At this time, Quara has a CHA of 19 plus a nymph cloak +2. Thus, she has a bonus of +5 and the DC of the spell should be a bit higher.

 

But maths aside: As we all know, the next enemies are the orcs in Old Owl Well. Every orc and his mother SHOULD have higher fortitude than a thug, right? (EDIT, some minutes later).... ah, they fail their will-save, I see now.

 

Nevertheless, the spell hits at least as often as it did against the thugs. Coincidence in every game?

[I_Raps]

The rogues may indeed be boosted above the norm - you can poke around in the toolset and see for yourself, if you feel a need.  If they are boosted, I suspect it was done not for any nefarious reason but to try to make these battles closer to the difficulty of the thief's path versions;  if that was so, they fell short of their goal.  A crooked PC faces much tougher encounters in the back alley and warehouse, for sure, and somewhat in Fihelis' Estate.

 

One aspect of battling the sneaks is psychological - you see those shadowy punks walking around your meatshields and you can't stop them so you feel more stress than the actual danger level should impose.

 

Also, when you fight the orcs, you should be better.  You should have an additional level, some more gear (Old Owl Well's merchant is a treasure trove and you'll gain significant loot in your mountain journeys) and you should gain one or two more levels dealing with the orc menace.  Plus, Grobnar can be more useful than Qara to most parties, especially if you're not stopping to rest after every fight.

 

 

p.s.  And iirc in the early days of NWN2, the opposite opinion of op-ness seemed to be the rule.  I remember a lot of "why won't these damn orcs die?!" posts.

[Basher of Glory]

Orcs are good for Quara, because they die quickly to fire spells, for whatever reason.

 

But you are right, Grobnar is an asset, too, for this scenario.

[Arkalezth]

p.s.  And iirc in the early days of NWN2, the opposite opinion of op-ness seemed to be the rule.  I remember a lot of "why won't these damn orcs die?!" posts.

I'd have to agree with those posts. IIRC, they're not really that powerful or dangerous, but they have insane HP and there's A LOT of them. It just takes ages to end the whole tribe. Perhaps my least favourite part of the OC.

BTW, Basher, when you say Phantasmal Killer "hits" them, do you mean kill, or are you counting the 3d6 damage too? If the latter, that's not surprising, although the rogues shouldn't have a good will save either. If it's the former, then I guess you're unlucky or those rogues have a better will than expected.

[Basher of Glory]

I'd have to agree with those posts. IIRC, they're not really that powerful or dangerous, but they have insane HP and there's A LOT of them. It just takes ages to end the whole tribe. Perhaps my least favourite part of the OC.

BTW, Basher, when you say Phantasmal Killer "hits" them, do you mean kill, or are you counting the 3d6 damage too? If the latter, that's not surprising, although the rogues shouldn't have a good will save either. If it's the former, then I guess you're unlucky or those rogues have a better will than expected.

I'd say it "hits" 6 times out of ten. Of these "hits" it splits up evenly between that damage and death. The same with the orcs later. But please note: It's just an estimation. Give or take one.

 

As far as I know, a typical rogues has high reflexes, all other saves are crappy. They shouldn't have a chance, nor the one way and neither the other.

I am aware to beat a dead horse here, because this has been discussed over and over again since the game was released.

 

If you check the toolset, you won't find something noteworthy. I still believe, that there is a script to make these thugs extra tough, for whatever reasons.

Perhaps not the worst way to show players who are new to AD&D if their builds are valid or not.

I can imagine, that someone with a rogue-main in shiny platemail and a BIIIIG weapon starts reconsidering now ....