353 réponses à ce sujet

[Reedirector]

Really simple question: what do you think about the Reapers' assertion that Synthetics and Organics will always come in to conflict. Do you agree or disagree, and why?

 

Personally, it doesn't really make much sense to me. Just because one group of people can be stronger than others, doesn't mean they have to exercise that strength aggressively or uncooperatively. Synthetics and Organics (at least in the ME universe) have quite a lot in common. Neither of them will really benefit from war. 

 

In fact, I think Synthetics should logically be the best at keeping the peace. They can restrict their impulsions and emotions much better than Organics can, they think more rationally. They might pursue war if there was rational benefit in it, but there doesn't seem to be benefit in it. What reasons can you think of for Synth/Org conflict?

[Vazgen]

I think it's quite possible. Synthetics usually do not instigate the conflict themselves. Almost always they react to the actions of organics, many times they react to actions that threaten their survival. The idea is that the moment synthetic life starts to consider itself alive, organics perceive it as a threat and try to deal with it, to which the synthetics respond with their full capabilities. 

The synthetics are also always created to perform tasks organics are not capable of or don't want to do. If synthetics are perceived as alive an ethical question rises - how appropriate is it to force others to do your job? If they are not perceived as alive, synthetics themselves might one day ask why do they do those tasks and raise that question with their masters which would lead to a conflict over the fundamental acceptance of their sentience.

[Han Shot First]

Like most of what the Catalyst says, I think it is a steaming pile.

 

Why would Synthetics be inherently more warlike than any organic faction, more likely to win wars, or more likely to completely annihilate opponents? The Catalyst was attempting to find a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

[Valmar]

In the Mass Effect universe, yes, definitely. All the evidence points to it. Over a billion years worth of perspective of seeing the same pattern over and over. Clearly it exists in this fictional universe. There is no question about it in my eyes. Its lore.

 

As to whether or not it would be true for the real world, I don't really know. We've never made AI like that before. We're not at that point yet. I will say however that it is very evident based off our culture that many people seem to agree that conflict will occur. Practically every single movie we made that involves AI also involves some form of conflict. Either they kill us or we will them. Rarely is there never any conflict. So this "conflict is inevitable" is hardly unique or original to Mass Effect.

 

Beyond that, I believe it has be true in the real world since conflict is infact inevitable. Its bound to happen just as organics are bound to fight each other. There will always be conflict. We humans can't even get along with each other and make up petty excuses to view other races as if they're different species already. I can't imagine we'd be any more embracing and understanding of synthetics. Especially when the world is not yet secular in its beliefs.

 

NO GO ZONES!

[GalacticWolf5]

Organics and Synthetics will never fully understand each others. One will always be afraid of the other and will react if attacked, provoked, etc. Organics are the same between each others. Conflict is inevitable. There's no such thing as true peace, even among Organics.

[Excella Gionne]

I listened to the Catalyst and I now understand....

[God]

Like most of what the Catalyst says, I think it is a steaming pile.

 

Why would Synthetics be inherently more warlike than any organic faction, more likely to win wars, or more likely to completely annihilate opponents? The Catalyst was attempting to find a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

 

I entirely disagree, and hold that not only did the problem exist, in the long run, it's going to be an even greater issue than the Reapers themselves.

 

Priority one post war (Destroy), after necessary reconstruction (necessary, not complete) should be working on a way to induce synthesis somehow. Or absolutely ensure that no synthetic intelligence is ever again created without very serious and powerful safeguards and physically limited in function.

 

The issue isn't that synthetics are primarily more warlike. The issue is that they're too much like us: imperfect. More likely to win wars: synthetics are literally greater than we in just about every possible category, and a sufficiently intelligent entity would be able to observe, analyze, and repurpose whatever mechnical ability it was given to becoming greater at warfare than any organic over time, and on an OOM much faster capability than any organic.

 

Synthetics, simply put, should not exist. They aren't abominations, but they are greater than we, and someone, somewhere will get stupid and initiate a conflict at some point that would utterly wipe us out because he broke the logic of the machine or did something that wasn't inherent to the self-preservation of it or something equally stupid.

[Reorte]

There will probably always be conflict, as there will be with organic vs. organic. The question is whether it would ever be really all that more significant than any other conflict.

The argument that we're doomed because they'll outpace is flawed; it assumes that there won't be any synthetics fighting with organics. Not every AI will go rogue, or be fundamentally hostile, and if there's a need for them to manage and develop hardware to counter hostile AIs that'll happen, in exactly the same way as every other military technological development has happened.

You can't rule out the possibility of synthetics trying to wipe out everyone, you can't rule out the possibility of an organic species trying to do the same.

[God]

There will probably always be conflict, as there will be with organic vs. organic. The question is whether it would ever be really all that more significant than any other conflict.

 

It absolutely would be. 

 

The one synthetic/organic conflict we see in great detail damn near led to the utter annihilation of the organic party involved. Less than a percent of the entire population of that species survived. An entire region of space was blocked off for 300 years for fear of provoking the AI that was now maintaining complete presence in the area. 

 

And 2 of the 3 outcomes of the final conclusion of that conflict involve the annihilation of one species or the other. 

[Reorte]

Which isn't remotely like the scale the Catalyst talks about. We've seen the same thing happen with organics too. The Rachni almost totally destroyed (and Shepard can finished the job). Half the challenge of the genophage was to make it not wipe out the krogan (although Wrex suggests a lot think that all it's done is prolong that). What would the turians have done to humanity if the Council hadn't got them to back off?

In short there's no reason to think that one is significantly more dangerous than the other.

[Iakus]

Which isn't remotely like the scale the Catalyst talks about. We've seen the same thing happen with organics too. The Rachni almost totally destroyed (and Shepard can finished the job). Half the challenge of the genophage was to make it not wipe out the krogan (although Wrex suggests a lot think that all it's done is prolong that). What would the turians have done to humanity if the Council hadn't got them to back off?

In short there's no reason to think that one is significantly more dangerous than the other.

Yup.  You can predict that any two groups will come into conflict and will most likely be right eventually.  Why the whole synthetic vs organic conflict is somehow more special is another question entirely.  And one that was not at all addressed well.

[GalacticWolf5]

Why the whole synthetic vs organic conflict is somehow more special is another question entirely. And one that was not at all addressed well.

Ever heard of the Leviathan DLC? The answer to that question is in there.

[Iakus]

Ever heard of the Leviathan DLC? The answer to that question is in there.

$10 retroactive forshadowing dlc about idiots who created a self-fulfilling prophecy?  Even to teh point of declaring "There was no mistake"?

 

Yeah, not exactly convincing.

[GalacticWolf5]

$10 retroactive forshadowing dlc about idiots who created a self-fulfilling prophecy? Even to teh point of declaring "There was no mistake"?

Yeah, not exactly convincing.

Maybe replay it and try to better understand the Leviathans themselves and their reasoning behind creating the Catalyst and its programming.

The answer is there. If you're refusing it, that's your problem. You're still stuck in the "The Catalyst is bs and makes no sense" mindset and I think it's about time you stop thinking that way. The game is almost 3 years old, that's a lot more than enough time to understand the story of a game.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Just because one group of people can be stronger than others, doesn't mean they have to exercise that strength aggressively or uncooperatively.

 

In fact, I think Synthetics should logically be the best at keeping the peace. They can restrict their impulsions and emotions much better than Organics can, they think more rationally. They might pursue war if there was rational benefit in it, but there doesn't seem to be benefit in it. What reasons can you think of for Synth/Org conflict?

 

If you play the ending at Low EMS, the Catalyst says that organics are to blame for perpetual organic/synthetic conflict.

 

(Shepard: "Solution? Solution to what?")

Catalyst: "Chaos. (... long pause ...) You bring it on yourselves."

 

You are right that synthetics do not have too much reason to just up and decide to kill off lots of organics. However, in this fictional setting, organics are constantly *****ing around with them and their survival -- giving them all the reason to do it. We also even perform reckless experiments through hi-tech machines ala Overlord that lead to us getting killed in great numbers. That can also be seen as organics getting wiped out by machines. And think about it: we build our society such that there is so much dependence on machines/computers, so we are screwed when the technology we depend on goes haywire or berserk.

[God]

Which isn't remotely like the scale the Catalyst talks about. We've seen the same thing happen with organics too. The Rachni almost totally destroyed (and Shepard can finished the job). Half the challenge of the genophage was to make it not wipe out the krogan (although Wrex suggests a lot think that all it's done is prolong that). What would the turians have done to humanity if the Council hadn't got them to back off?

In short there's no reason to think that one is significantly more dangerous than the other.

 

Yes there is. Because unlike any of the organic races you mentioned, synthetics have the ability to advance themselves exponentially and at will. The Geth may not have hit a state where this is entirely possible yet, or, as it is implied, actively inhibited themselves from achieving such a state, but it's foolish to assume that that's the rule of AI in general.

 

Synthetics, without some kind of external intervention, would inevitably outclass and annihilate organic life when conflict is initiated.

[God]

$10 retroactive forshadowing dlc about idiots who created a self-fulfilling prophecy?  Even to teh point of declaring "There was no mistake"?

 

Yeah, not exactly convincing.

 

Your belief is not necessary to fact.

 

You are canonically wrong. Deal with it.

[Iakus]

Maybe replay it and try to better understand the Leviathans themselves and their reasoning behind creating the Catalyst and its programming.

The answer is there. If you're refusing it, that's your problem. You're still stuck in the "The Catalyst is bs and makes no sense" mindset and I think it's about time you stop thinking that way. The game is almost 3 years old, that's a lot more than enough time to understand the story of a game.

Or maybe...the Catalyst is bs and makes no sense.

 

 

 

Your belief is not necessary to fact.

 

You are canonically wrong. Deal with it.

 

Eppur si muove

[Valmar]

Kinda like saying math or science makes no sense just because you don't understand it. It's a fault of yours that it makes no sense, not a fault of the actual material. The lore presents you with what is needed to make sense of it and they even went out of their way to make a DLC specifically to hand-hold you through it and explain it. The catalyst's logic makes sense within the fictional universe of Mass Effect and the lore provided to us.

 

That being said I do believe there are aspects of the catalyst that don't make any sense. Such as it being part of the Citadel just to name one.

[God]

Or maybe...the Catalyst is bs and makes no sense.

 

 

 

 

Eppur si muove

 

No... pretty sure it makes sense. You just refuse to see it. So... bs to your view.

 

Ona dvizhetsya tak medlenno, v kontse kontsov.

 

Pretending to be correct does not make you correct. Nor does feeling indignant or invalidated. 

 

You are wrong. End of story. Embrace it, deal with it, or move on. It's not going to change.

[God]

Kinda like saying math or science makes no sense just because you don't understand it. It's a fault of yours that it makes no sense, not a fault of the actual material. The lore presents you with what is needed to make sense of it and they even went out of their way to make a DLC specifically to hand-hold you through it and explain it. The catalyst's logic makes sense within the fictional universe of Mass Effect and the lore provided to us.

 

That being said I do believe there are aspects of the catalyst that don't make any sense. Such as it being part of the Citadel just to name one.

 

Indeed. For all intents and purposes, the context behind the catalyst does make sense. Does that mean that the writing for it is all good and strong? Not at all. But I can appreciate its existence and understand its purpose and dilemma. It's very real, and very much exists.

 

Anyone who believes otherwise can watch their headcanon burn when the synthetics come for their heads.

[GalacticWolf5]

Or maybe...the Catalyst is bs and makes no sense.

 

Seriously? Do I really need to explain to you something you're already supposed to know? Let's make this quick.

 

The Leviathans are proud and aloof, they regard themselves as the galaxy's first and only apex race, and think of other races as mere tools meant to serve them.

All the other species were the Leviathans' thralls.

Those lesser species build Synthetics to aid them.

Some Organic civilizations are wiped out by their Synthetic creations.

The Leviathans don't like this because they want tribute and need the lesser species for things they can't do themselves.

They build an Intelligence (the Catalyst) with the mandate to find a solution to the conflicts and preserve all life at any cost.

The Leviathans failed to perceive the Intelligence as a threat. They considered it nothing more than another tool to achieve a set goal.

As the Intelligence sought out the means to fulfill its mandate, it created an army of pawns that were dispatched to collect genetic data from species throughout the galaxy.

Eventually, the Intelligence came to the conclusion that the Leviathans themselves were part of the problem, and harvested them to made the first Reaper.

The entire galaxy became the Catalyst's "experiment" as it continued to harvest races and collect ever more data in an effort to find the ultimate answer to the conflict.

Now I assume you know what happens after that. If not, you're a lost cause.

 

The Catalyst is simply doing what it was programed to do. The Leviathans were just too full of themselves and didn't realize what they were doing and how bad it could turn out.

[Iakus]

And not a single bit of that shows the Catalyst'a assertion is right. Only that the Leviathan were and still are complete and total fools

[GalacticWolf5]

And not a single bit of that shows the Catalyst'a assertion is right. Only that the Leviathan were and still are complete and total fools

 

What more proof do you need? The Catalyst itself says it. Javik talks about what happened in his own cycle. We have the Geth/Quarian conflict and other AI problems in our cycle. There is always conflict between Organics and Synthetics. The Catalyst has to find a solution. It's in his programming. It knows that there is always conflict between Organics and Synthetics because it sees the patern repeat itself in every cycle. In case you didn't know, a single sovereign class Reaper is made after each cycle. Look at how many Reapers there are around Earth during the final battle, and that's not even all of them. The cycles have been going on for a long while and conflict between Organics and Synthetics happened in each of them.

[Asharad Hett]

Why would Synthetics be inherently more warlike than any organic faction, more likely to win wars, or more likely to completely annihilate opponents? 

 

I have no answer for this