353 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

A Renegade Shepard might work like this, but not a Paragon Shepard.

 

There's a big difference between both, that's why this ending has 2 versions.

Be peaceful or I'll indoctrinate you!  

[SwobyJ]

Be peaceful or I'll indoctrinate you!  

 

I don't even think that.

 

At the point that a Shepard would do it, it would be closer to teaching, over the course of many years. The person choosing to network or not, and having enough Reaper knowledge to avoid anything like huskification. Such a new world.

 

LISTEN TO MYSELF, I'M INDOOKTRINOOTED

[Cheviot]

Really simple question: what do you think about the Reapers' assertion that Synthetics and Organics will always come in to conflict. Do you agree or disagree, and why?

I agree that it is a very real threat in that universe, due to how the Synthetics come into being; they are created by Organics not as a new self-aware form of life, but as tools to do a job.  However, the increasing complexity needed to do more and more complex tasks seems to result in self-awareness amongst Synthetics at some point. Since they were never concieved to be self-aware individuals, any sign of this could be seen as a sign of malfunction.  The conflict that the Catalyst sees emerges from this conflict over self-awareness: the creators seek to deny it, and the created seek to assert it.

 

To put it in a historical context, imagine the Synthetics as a slave class and the Organics as slave owners.  There is, however, a crucial difference: Synthetics would eventually be too good at asserting their self-awareness, their right to freedom, since they do not tire, and fallen compatriots can be replaced more quickly, and they require less in the way of supply lines.  The more they do, however, will mean the more the Organics will seek to defeat them, leading to a vicious circle.

[SwobyJ]

I think organics will always die to synthetics, somewhere, to some extent, but I don't think that means it has to be to an extent that we have to be up in arms about it.

 

It would seem that whole swaths, perhaps whole species of thralls were being eliminated forever by synthetics, losing Leviathans out on worshipers (or IMO, FOOD 0_0).

 

This sort of thing imo is not an inevitability. We can counter it. We can police it. We can change it. Essentially, we can minimize the problem, eventually, over much struggle and work and upgrades, to be largely negligible.

 

The time of the Old Gods is over. Time for the New Gods.

[Cheviot]

This sort of thing imo is not an inevitability. We can counter it.

That's what ME3 was all about; that's why Shepard's presence before the Catalyst was a rebuttal to it's belief.  Shepard was able to show throughout the game that what seemed like inevitable, unresolvable conflict was not neccessarily that.  I'm not just talking about the Rannoch story strand, I'm talking about the Organic version of it, the Genophage, too. 

[SwobyJ]

That's what ME3 was all about; that's why Shepard's presence before the Catalyst was a rebuttal to it's belief.  Shepard was able to show throughout the game that what seemed like inevitable, unresolvable conflict was not neccessarily that.  I'm not just talking about the Rannoch story strand, I'm talking about the Organic version of it, the Genophage, too. 

 

Indeed

 

And I've already done the mental modelling of how the major conflicts of the trilogy and ME3 relate to the mega-merged conflict (talking theme-wise) of the final choice. And if Bioware had more time and assets to do it, we'd probably see a few more other major arcs play out as well, instead of being forgotten or only placed as war assets to optionally look at, or be smaller missions instead of something larger. But they still would have involved the concept of 'inevitability of conflict', and someone, a master of it, trying to rise above it (to whatever extent - and whether it is good or bad to rise further than you need to).

[Pasquale1234]

To put it in a historical context, imagine the Synthetics as a slave class and the Organics as slave owners.  There is, however, a crucial difference: Synthetics would eventually be too good at asserting their self-awareness, their right to freedom, since they do not tire, and fallen compatriots can be replaced more quickly, and they require less in the way of supply lines.  The more they do, however, will mean the more the Organics will seek to defeat them, leading to a vicious circle.

This is what happens when we anthropomorphize other species, including synthetics.

Synthetics only know, believe, value, and do the things they have been programmed to know, believe, value, and do. They might not think of themselves as slaves or recognize any right to freedom.  They might not even recognize the concept of slavery or freedom.  They might not be programmed for self-replication, self-preservation, self-defense.  They probably won't have emotions, tastes, preferences, wants, or desires, either.  How they see themselves in relation to others of their kind or other species depends on their programming.  If they are capable of changing their own programming, they may develop some other characteristics over time - to the extent that their original programming allows.  Where any of it might lead is unknown.


 

[Deathsaurer]

Let's review what happens if the Geth and Quarians stop fighting. The Geth instantly invite the Quarians back to Rannoch and help them rebuild, don't in weeks what would take the Quarians years. The Geth never wanted to oust their creators, freedom wasn't the issue. They simply wanted to be accepted and didn't know how to express this in a way the Quarians would believe.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Be peaceful or I'll indoctrinate you!  

 

Hahaha... that is almost as funny as: "Be peaceful or your entire species will be wiped out in minutes."

 

Or, better yet, celebrating that ultimatum as "a choice" by the quarians to make peace with the geth. Nope, no imposition there at all.

 

Clllllassic!   

[Iakus]

Hahaha... that is almost as funny as: "Be peaceful or your entire species will be wiped out in minutes."

 

Or, better yet, celebrating that ultimatum as "a choice" by the quarians to make peace with the geth. Nope, no imposition there at all.

 

Clllllassic!   

Was there a point to be made in there?

[KaiserShep]

"Dwindling resources."

Hold your horses there, buddy.

There are hundreds of billions of stars, trillions of planets, hundreds of trillions of moons and countless quadrillions of asteroids in the Milky Way alone. Even if organics and synthetics each harvested an entire planet's worth of resources a day (an impossible feat in every respect), it would take them trillions of years to deplete the Milky Way of planetary resources. And they still have all moons and asteroids left!

 

Even in the MEU, where relay travel makes traversing the Milky Way relatively easy, I have no doubt that claims over resources in any given system would still potentially trigger conflict, because despite the relays, it still takes time, resources, money and manpower to find and extract raw materials, and hauling it back wherever to be processed and used or sold.

[Valmar]

Even in the MEU, where relay travel makes traversing the Milky Way relatively easy, I have no doubt that claims over resources in any given system would still potentially trigger conflict, because despite the relays, it still takes time, resources, money and manpower to find and extract raw materials, and hauling it back wherever to be processed and used or sold.

 

The batarians and quarians are good examples of this.

[Linkenski]

Let's review what happens if the Geth and Quarians stop fighting. The Geth instantly invite the Quarians back to Rannoch and help them rebuild, don't in weeks what would take the Quarians years. The Geth never wanted to oust their creators, freedom wasn't the issue. They simply wanted to be accepted and didn't know how to express this in a way the Quarians would believe.

Nono you're wrong. Synthetics would destroy all organics, Quarians and Geth peace doesn't last. It's inevitable and that's a 100% certainty - Valmar.

[fhs33721]

Nono you're wrong. Synthetics would destroy all organics, Quarians and Geth peace doesn't last. It's inevitable and that's a 100% certainty - Valmar.

And the writers of the game say that as well by info-dumping this on you during the ending and the Leviathan DLC, don't forget that.

Just because the plot is stupid doesn't mean that it isn't the actual plot.

I personally think it's beyond stupid that Shepard survives being hit by Harbinger (I seriously think that this is the most stupid part of the entire ending, maybe even the franchise as a whole), yet I have to acknowledge that s/he does.

[Valmar]

Nono you're wrong. Synthetics would destroy all organics, Quarians and Geth peace doesn't last. It's inevitable and that's a 100% certainty - Valmar.

 

Well, that was appropriate. Especially considering I haven't even given any deep input on this topic for several pages now.

 

Though what you say is true. It isn't just little ol Valmar who says it though. The Leviathans and the Catalyst also say, as does much of the lore and the writers. It is the story told to us in the fictional universe of Mass Effect. It's also a bit of common sense since everyone should realize that infinite peace for all eternity is impossible. Valmar just recites lore, really. It's been a while since I've seen him give an original opinion that wasn't just reciting lore facts. I think he's a one trick pony, myself, but that's just me. Get out of your lore-bubble man, experiment a little! Blah, he'll never listen. He needs to read more fanfiction or something. Lore isn't gospel, bro! 

[Linkenski]

EDIT: Misread it. Sorry, about that Vally, I was in the wrong there :-P

[shodiswe]

I think the answer is simple. Fear of the unknown, often expressed as racism or other similar reactions.

Conflict, though seems likely when one side will hold on to ownership of another thinking sentient entity, and deny it of all rights.
Does there have to be a conflict? I don't think so, but it's very likely since one side who benefits from an arrangement and isn't suffering from it isn't likely to grasp the problem until it becomes a serious problem for them.

It's certainly a problem for the future but asserting a superior attitude to those less fortunate and beating them harder with a stick isn't likely to work for long. Not in a good way anyway.

This is what I think, not what the writers of a fictional game thinks or people in general might think if they ever ponder the question. It's not a question of right or wrong in the game, or what the writers are trying to imply, I'm not going to try and interpret that.

[shodiswe]

 

This is what happens when we anthropomorphize other species, including synthetics.

Synthetics only know, believe, value, and do the things they have been programmed to know, believe, value, and do. They might not think of themselves as slaves or recognize any right to freedom.  They might not even recognize the concept of slavery or freedom.  They might not be programmed for self-replication, self-preservation, self-defense.  They probably won't have emotions, tastes, preferences, wants, or desires, either.  How they see themselves in relation to others of their kind or other species depends on their programming.  If they are capable of changing their own programming, they may develop some other characteristics over time - to the extent that their original programming allows.  Where any of it might lead is unknown.


 

 

It's also interesting to note how the only possible Organic response is always described as going on the offensive and being reactionary. It's described as the only possible response.
There are old texts that have been viewed as masterpieces of their time but which comes across as somewhat wrong or racist in todays changed and changing values.
The writer didn't even reflect on the notion while writing it back then because it was just normal back then. It seems familiar.

Star Trek had the exception of Commander Data and The Doctor eventually being given some kind of recognition and civil rights. Who could then go on and be productive citizens of their society.

[Iakus]

Well, that was appropriate. Especially considering I haven't even given any deep input on this topic for several pages now.

 

Though what you say is true. It isn't just little ol Valmar who says it though. The Leviathans and the Catalyst also say, as does much of the lore and the writers. It is the story told to us in the fictional universe of Mass Effect. It's also a bit of common sense since everyone should realize that infinite peace for all eternity is impossible. Valmar just recites lore, really. It's been a while since I've seen him give an original opinion that wasn't just reciting lore facts. I think he's a one trick pony, myself, but that's just me. Get out of your lore-bubble man, experiment a little! Blah, he'll never listen. He needs to read more fanfiction or something. Lore isn't gospel, bro! 

Lore does not say synthetics would destroy all organics.  Just the opposite, in fact.

[Iakus]

Even in the MEU, where relay travel makes traversing the Milky Way relatively easy, I have no doubt that claims over resources in any given system would still potentially trigger conflict, because despite the relays, it still takes time, resources, money and manpower to find and extract raw materials, and hauling it back wherever to be processed and used or sold.

 

But a sozen different races, for thousands of years, have managed to not wipe each other out, despite needing more of the same things than synthetics would

[Deathsaurer]

Lore does not say synthetics would destroy all organics.  Just the opposite, in fact.

And yet practically everyone in universe thinks they will if they aren't destroyed. Gotta love that irrationality.

[Valmar]

Lore does not say synthetics would destroy all organics.  Just the opposite, in fact.

 

The lore does absolutely say it. You may not agree with its assertion but the lore DOES say it. I know you don't like the Leviathan DLC but its still lore. I know you don't like the catalyst but its still lore. The lore says it. Any claim otherwise is a lie.

[Linkenski]

It's true. The lore definitely says it with Leviathan DLC and the Reaper origins as they now appear in the canon... it's Shepard's timeline and cycle that does not seemingly show signs of repeating the pattern the Catalyst and Leviathans were talking about.

 

I'm not trying to completely discredit every single aspect of the ending. I never completely hated the concept. I just think execution is shitty incoherent to what happened in ME2 and ME3. If you played ME1 and then saw the ending of ME3 you wouldn't think it was too far fetched based on your knowledge and witnessing first hand of synthetics in that game.

 

Early signs of self-evolving AI forming ill intent against organics. (W/O reaper influence)

 

The problem of the synthetics vs organics theme is that the pattern in any case is caused by unfortunate coincidences with races interacting with each other, as just about any other conflict regardless of whether that's synthetics vs organics, but in the ending it's just presented in such a one-size-fits-all kind of way and with barely any real proof or proper arguments that it's just hard to buy. It's the use of absolutism "always" and "all" in the Catalyst's assertions that I'm really iffy about and the fact that Shepard doesn't react to it.

 

The Geth seem to understand quarians quite well after all, and more quarians seem to accept them if peace is formed on Rannoch, and EDI and Joker seems to have real chemistry with each other. That's just two examples but it shows a hope that neither Shepard nor the Catalyst can apparently grasp in their conversation at the end... and with the EC synthetsis epilogue it shows me that neither could the writers.

[Iakus]

The lore does absolutely say it. You may not agree with its assertion but the lore DOES say it. I know you don't like the Leviathan DLC but its still lore. I know you don't like the catalyst but its still lore. The lore says it. Any claim otherwise is a lie.

 

First off, we only have the Leviathans' word on what happened.  Actually not even that, we have the word of the descendants of the Leviathans' .  Hearsay+a billion years.  That's like impcitly trusting the quarians on what happened in the Morning War.  Except the quarians are at least willing to admit they made a mistake in creating the geth.

 

But hey, let's assume that they were accurate.  Do we see organics still running around?  Hey, there are!  Even with Reapers slaughtering (oh, wait, "ascending") races every so often.  Organics still exist.

 

Ergo, the lore does not say synthetics will eventually exterminate all organics.  Because organics have always stopped them before it came to that.  Even the Reapers, the laughably idiotic "answer" to the problem that doesn't exist.

[Linkenski]

First off, we only have the Leviathans' word on what happened.  Actually not even that, we have the word of the descendants of the Leviathans' .  Hearsay+a billion years.  That's like impcitly trusting the quarians on what happened in the Morning War.  Except the quarians are at least willing to admit they made a mistake in creating the geth.

 

But hey, let's assume that they were accurate.  Do we see organics still running around?  Hey, there are!  Even with Reapers slaughtering (oh, wait, "ascending") races every so often.  Organics still exist.

 

Ergo, the lore does not say synthetics will eventually exterminate all organics.  Because organics have always stopped them before it came to that.  Even the Reapers, the laughably idiotic "answer" to the problem that doesn't exist.

Exactly. Like I have said a couple of times already it's this appeal to authority that the entire argument rides on and therefore the assertion can't really be trusted; thus the ending just falls apart because all we can do is speculate on whether synthetic singularity would've been real but almost all the proof we have from our cycle shows a contradicting pattern or at least it shows a very grey pattern that doesn't clearly indicate an ever increasing threat of AIs, which the writers never caught on to even though it's sitting right in everyone's faces.