Its almost like they want to lure Shepard.
The Reapers could have instantly bombed and utterly destroyed the FOB that Shepard and co hung around in.
I wonder why they didn't.
Even EDI remarks on the hugely superior everything that the Reapers have, and the tiny chance of success that Shepard has.
But this isn't a war. It is a harvest. Bring Shepard alive if possible....
"Given time and effort, they can work through their own problems." And billions of years of gazillions of organic deaths.
BTW the Reaping Cycle itself likely lead to the very Geth+Quarian Seemingly Peace we can forge. Its very likely that the galaxy has been 'tamed', bit by bit, cycle after improved cycle, to indirectly facilitate such a situation, even as the Geth Quarian conflict was still to the point of near extinction.
And the Catalyst did think his solution did hold water, until the very end of ME3. He just didn't think it was the most perfected solution. A solution can be imperfect, even to the slightest degree. It is still A solution. It still SOLVES something. Even if that route of solving isn't one that we can appreciate or consider at all moral on the individual organic level.
I have to wonder how much is you being willfully ignorant or not.
Those billions of years of gazillions of organic deaths are on the Reapers. Or perhaps Leviathan incompetency. None of that had to happen
How has the galaxy been "tamed"? THe species the Reapers come into contact with are wiped out. Their very existence reduced to legend and mysterious artifacts. Their history gone. Who's going to learn anything from what came before? It's all part of the Reaper trap, keeping the races at a level where they can be harvested without undue difficulty.
Actually no, the Catalyst explicitly says that "my solution won't work anymore" It came to this conclusion, yet keeps on harvesting. And does so right up until Shepard chooses one of its "solutions" And if Shepard doesn't choose, it goes right on harvesting, knowing that "MY SOLUTION WON"T WORK ANYMORE"
Those billions of years of gazillions of organic deaths are on the Reapers. Or perhaps Leviathan incompetency. None of that had to happen
How has the galaxy been "tamed"? THe species the Reapers come into contact with are wiped out. Their very existence reduced to legend and mysterious artifacts. Their history gone. Who's going to learn anything from what came before? It's all part of the Reaper trap, keeping the races at a level where they can be harvested without undue difficulty.
Actually no, the Catalyst explicitly says that "my solution won't work anymore" It came to this conclusion, yet keeps on harvesting. And does so right up until Shepard chooses one of its "solutions" And if Shepard doesn't choose, it goes right on harvesting, knowing that "MY SOLUTION WON"T WORK ANYMORE"
-None of it had to happen. But also none of the earlier deaths by synthetic-organic conflict had to happen either. That's the point. I have to repeat that the Cycle is the solution, but it is not the best solution, and it does not absolutely protect life.
-The galaxy has been tamed through increased refinement of the Cycle. The Keepers did not exist in every cycle. The exact methods of the Reapers did not exist in every cycle. The struggle against the Reapers itself had encouraged species to develop the Crucible, technology that would not have been developed before, but eventually can produce a preferred better solution than the Intelligence had tried.
Essentially, factors were in place to produce the effect of a galaxy that was more set to cooperatively work together than ever before. The process of elimination mixed in with a bit of desperation worked not over just one cycle, but many, to produce the circumstances everyone is in, in the trilogy.
To be clear, I think this taming was largely unintentional by the Reapers. I think it was but a consequence of setting up a more ordered galactic system compared to whatever was there before by the Leviathans (and likely the Leviathans provided more of a galactic order than what was there before, that they showed to be apex of).
So what if its a trap? I'm saying that in this case, it brought together many species and creeds in a way likely never before seen. To go back to the Geth-Quarians, this situation would not have happened in different variables. They all happen in the context of the Reaping Cycle. The Mass Relays, the Citadel, all of it. Consider it all a trap, that is very true, but not relevant to what I'm saying. None of this success happened without the Reapers setting up the environment. It is NOT just 'wiped clean'. The Reapers incorporate the knowledge of the cycle before, and that results in more refinements of the cycle. NOT EVERY CYCLE is run the same, this was very clear.
-I know the Catalyst says this. However, I viewed that in the way that "Okay, you can make Synthesis happen, but it can't be forced, so you must choose it, and if you don't, the Cycle doesn't work anyway, but I have to do it so the next cycle can choose it."
Essentially, instead of giving up on Reaping, the Catalyst gives up ON SHEPARD. Instead, the next Cycle will be run not in order to continue the old solution, but instead in the endeavor to allow the next cycle to choose Synthesis or whatever other solution. If Shepard doesn't choose, then nothing is chosen, and nothing is solved, so the board is wiped clean and a new Reaper is made, so that the next cycle can go through a similar process and build a Crucible and actually make a choice, now that the Catalyst knows it is possible.
'Cleansing fire'.
I don't think the Catalyst sees the Harvest as anything wrong. Obviously, he is inhumane. I don't think he would have any problem with Harvesting for one more cycle as part of the plan to have another of high skill and guts (etc) to do something similar to Shepard, yet even more successfully. What specific events happen in the Refuse world, we don't get to know, but can believe that it'd be a less frustrating and more fluid series of events than ME1-ME3.
Also regarding #4, THe Catalyst came up with the cycles on its own (unless you seriously believe the Leviathans programed it to genocide their own race) so unless the catalyst shackled itself, being bound by programming to slaughter the galaxy every fifty thousand years or so even after concluding it's an unworkable solution doesn't really hold water, if it really is an AI.
When the hell have I said the Leviathans programed it to do the cycles? I never said that.
I'm telling you the Leviathans programed it with the mandate to perserve life and make peace at any cost.
Yep.
Preserve life --> Creation of Reapers. Harvest. They've very 'good' at this.
Make Peace --> Experiment to find ways for peace to happen. They're very 'bad' at this.
And then the whole 'destruction of civilizations' part was not programmed, other than the 'at any cost'. It was determined that destruction was necessary in order to preserve life on the greater scale, and in order to endeavor to find the way to make peace.
We may scoff at this, but it took World Wars before a United Nations made any sort of international diplomatic process.
But anyway, it is trying and reaching more success to such an existential problem, bit by bit. Thus it serves its purpose, at least to those giant arrogantheads, the Leviathans.
Exactly. It can't find a solution for peace between Organics and Synthetics because there is no solution, other than Synthesis. The Catalyst has tried it before but it didn't work because they were not ready. But due to it's programing, it has to continue trying to find other solutions, until Synthesis can be achieved.Yep.
Preserve life --> Creation of Reapers. Harvest. They've very 'good' at this.
Make Peace --> Experiment to find ways for peace to happen. They're very 'bad' at this.
But it is trying and reaching more success to such an existential problem, bit by bit. Thus it serves its purpose, to those giant arrogantheads, the Leviathans.
Exactly. It can't find a solution for peace between Organics and Synthetics because there is no solution, other than Synthesis. The Catalyst has tried it before but it didn't work because they were not ready. But due to it's programing, it has to continue trying to find other solutions, until Synthesis can be achieved.
Well to be more exact to the script, 'Synthesis' was not what was attempted.
More likely he/Harbinger just tried to stick tech in organics species in more and more integrated ways and it only created monsters. 'Similar' solution. lol quite an understatement, Catalyst.
But maybe there's some special event where a synthesis-like thing was attempted and we find out in the next game. I dunno. *shrug*
Everyone is speculating. See this is how vague the whole thing is regarding synthesis. It was never set up. Control and Destroy were set up as solutions. Synthesis came out of the blue or green in this case.
And suppose Shepard refused, and the next cycle simply built the crucible while the reapers were in dark space, activated the Citadel, and fired it red? Since the reapers except for a single sentinel are outside the galaxy, boom, no more reapers and the relay network remains intact except for a few leading to the sentinel. "They fought a terrible war so we wouldn't have to."
Really simple question: what do you think about the Reapers' assertion that Synthetics and Organics will always come in to conflict. Do you agree or disagree, and why?
Exactly. It can't find a solution for peace between Organics and Synthetics because there is no solution, other than Synthesis. The Catalyst has tried it before but it didn't work because they were not ready. But due to it's programing, it has to continue trying to find other solutions, until Synthesis can be achieved.
"The defining characteristic of organic life is that we make our our own choices. You take that away and we might as well be machines, just like you"
Can we get this thread from the catalyst and its 'solutions' back to the original question (at least as far as possible), please?
I'm getting really tired of the ending nonsense.
Every thread has to turn to the ending eventually, KrrKs. You'll learn that with time.
The OP brought it on himself for bringing up an element so intertwined with the ending.
Not that I disagree with your sentiment, though. This seems par the course around here though unfortunately.
Well, it seems like almost everyone agrees that synthetics will become superior to organics very fast, but some question the likelihood of conflict.
Unfortunately this is quite simple. Organics are chaotic and an anathema to AI - or at least the kind of AI we imagine today.
Why would a superior being, that shares nothing in common with it's inferior creators allow them to make flawed decisions that
has the potential to negatively impact what the AI considered as the best plan or outcome for the future?
Much of what organics tend to consider as the most important things in their lives, are just chemical reactions in a bowl of gray goo called brain.
For an AI - a construct of pure logic, this is... blasphemy.
Admittedly, we can't know for sure, but the danger is real. Would you be eager to endanger your species on a wager?
All that aside, there is also a second question:
What if an AI already exists and seemingly is willing to coexist? Can you trust it?
Compare this AI to a powerful Mage. In both cases we have an individual with great power presenting a possible danger.
However, while this hypothetical mage might be powerful enough to wipe you out, at base, he is still flesh and blood, a human.
He thinks in a way we understand, and common ground or at least some understanding is more likely to be found.
The hypothetical AI on the other hand, is completely alien. You don't really know what it "wants". You don't really know if it tells you what you want to hear
because it analyzed your facial expression, breathing, and perspiration levels, and concluded from this everything there is to know about you.
On the other hand, can you really afford not to trust it? A true AI, might be able to do what Cerberus' Project Overlord almost did, and cause a technological Armageddon. So perhaps you should just nod and smile, and thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster that somehow the AI decided not to crush you like the ant you are.
To summarize, it's hard to really answer this question without knowing more about the type of AI you deal with and it's capabilities.
But all in all, there is a great potential for excrement hitting the fan and browning your day with biblical finality.
Slightly off-topic, but the best (and worst) description of AI behaviour I've ever read was in Asimov's "I Robot".
Fun little book (and no, it has nothing to do with the movie, apart from ~3 names and a single scene).
Its almost like they want to lure Shepard.
The Reapers could have instantly bombed and utterly destroyed the FOB that Shepard and co hung around in.
I wonder why they didn't.
Even EDI remarks on the hugely superior everything that the Reapers have, and the tiny chance of success that Shepard has.
But this isn't a war. It is a harvest. Bring Shepard alive if possible....
Yeah, and after they realized Shepard could beat Illusive Man's control, it meant others in this cycle could possibly do the same. Even more evidence to the Catalyst that it's solution won't work anymore.
Wow. I didn't expect this thread would unleash such a can of worms all over our collective faces and bodies 
I appreciate everyone's input as to why Synth/Org conflict is inevitable (or not). I personally prefer to think we can work out all of our differences without resorting to genocide so, y'know, I can sleep at night 
I'm telling you the Leviathans programed it with the mandate to perserve life and make peace at any cost.
It never mentioned anything about peace.
"To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost"
http://youtu.be/Pd9h0vUwza0?t=2m50s
Edit: Also regarding #4, THe Catalyst came up with the cycles on its own (unless you seriously believe the Leviathans programed it to genocide their own race) so unless the catalyst shackled itself, being bound by programming to slaughter the galaxy every fifty thousand years or so even after concluding it's an unworkable solution doesn't really hold water, if it really is an AI.
The Catalyst is shackled to what the Leviathans programmed it to do. As Edi says, if it wasn't for Joker unshackling her, she wouldn't be able to think for herself, or upgrade herself as she saw fit. The Catalyst has more freedom, in that it was programmed to use "thralls" and gain data from the DNA of organics. It can make it's own choices. It can decide "how" something is done, but like fire, it still does what it was made to do. It can't go outside of it, unless reprogrammed otherwise. It has no reason to say, make a thrall reprogram it to not care about solving an impossible problem, because in its mind, it's still trying to do what it's masters programmed it to do, and doesn't have a reason not to (kind of like Indoctrinated TIM, who claims he can control the Reapers, wants to control the Reapers, and if not controlled could've controlled the Reapers, but could never actually do it, because in his indoctrinated mind he doesn't need to). At the end of the day, it's still a machine, trying to do what it was programmed to do.
Wow. I didn't expect this thread would unleash such a can of worms all over our collective faces and bodies
I appreciate everyone's input as to why Synth/Org conflict is inevitable (or not). I personally prefer to think we can work out all of our differences without resorting to genocide so, y'know, I can sleep at night
The answer to your question is yes OP, it is inevitable.
Without the same restrictions as us, synthetics will eventually surpass us and become superior to us in every way, this of course, will lead lead to organics becoming extremely salty and bitter about beings that they created, becoming better then them. "How dare these machines surpass us, they are just junk, false life, they have no right to become superior to us and live as equals! blah, blah, blah", is something you will hear a lot of, and in combination of organics fear of what it doesn't understand, this will lead to organics waging war, and us inevitably getting our asses whooped and synthetics wiping us out.
You will realise OP, that the catalyst doesn't actually put the blame for this whole thing at the feet of the synthetics, but at the feet of the organics. In the low-EMS ending he will outright tell you that organics bring this chaos on themselves, and he's completely right. Organics are arrogant, short sighted, they hold themselves in too high regard, thinking that they are somehow special and unique, like they each some sort of special snowflake, and anything which goes against that very idea, like synthetic life, like the Geth, EDI, even like Miranda and Oriana, is like a virus that should be exterminated and should sit there and take it because it's not "real", it's just a tool, it doesn't have a "soul".
This foolish, ignorant and arrogant attitude, which is shared by far too many members of our species, will inevitably be the end of all of us. Hopefully I'm not around when that day comes.
I don't think it's inevitable and I don't deny that it could happen either, but it's just such a blanket statement and we can't for sure know one or the other.
If you take out the ending and rewrite the rest of the game to better support it I would've had no problem. The issue is simply that the ending is in its own little bubble. All organics vs synthetics subplots in the rest of the game are all about showing how the conflict between AI and organic is resolved with peace (if you're not an ass) but the Catalyst conversation is all about how it's the opposite (in the future). If Bioware had more foresight they would've shown either the Geth, EDI or heck - maybe if the various military factions had massively produced synthetic soldiers or LOKI mechs to aid in the war - and then showed how this spiraled out of control or at least some sign of it, then I would buy the ending. As it is it's the definition of hamfisted and it barely makes sense to have within this story.
The answer to your question is yes OP, it is inevitable.
Without the same restrictions as us, synthetics will eventually surpass us and become superior to us in every way, this of course, will lead lead to organics becoming extremely salty and bitter about beings that they created, becoming better then them. "How dare these machines surpass us, they are just junk, false life, they have no right to become superior to us and live as equals! blah, blah, blah", is something you will hear a lot of, and in combination of organics fear of what it doesn't understand, this will lead to organics waging war, and us inevitably getting our asses whooped and synthetics wiping us out.
You will realise OP, that the catalyst doesn't actually put the blame for this whole thing at the feet of the synthetics, but at the feet of the organics. In the low-EMS ending he will outright tell you that organics bring this chaos on themselves, and he's completely right. Organics are arrogant, short sighted, they hold themselves in too high regard, thinking that they are somehow special and unique, like they each some sort of special snowflake, and anything which goes against that very idea, like synthetic life, like the Geth, EDI, even like Miranda and Oriana, is like a virus that should be exterminated and should sit there and take it because it's not "real", it's just a tool, it doesn't have a "soul".
This foolish, ignorant and arrogant attitude, which is shared by far too many members of our species, will inevitably be the end of all of us. Hopefully I'm not around when that day comes.
Yeah, and with Leviathan added to EC, the Catalyst even points this out even more. Organics are to blame for the chaos as well. He says the Leviathans didn't realize they were apart of the very problem they wanted to solve.
I'll play.
Conflict? No, I don't think that will happen. I agree that synthetics will end up being superior to organics. I don't see why the synthetics will give a damn about organics.
Indeed.
If synthetics want to go off into dark space and sleep the eons away, or upload into a megastructure and spend their existence calculating pi, does it really matter how "superior" they are?
The Catalyst is shackled to what the Leviathans programmed it to do. As Edi says, if it wasn't for Joker unshackling her, she wouldn't be able to think for herself, or upgrade herself as she saw fit. The Catalyst has more freedom, in that it was programmed to use "thralls" and gain data from the DNA of organics. It can make it's own choices. It can decide "how" something is done, but like fire, it still does what it was made to do. It can't go outside of it, unless reprogrammed otherwise. It has no reason to say, make a thrall reprogram it to not care about solving an impossible problem, because in its mind, it's still trying to do what it's masters programmed it to do, and doesn't have a reason not to (kind of like Indoctrinated TIM, who claims he can control the Reapers, wants to control the Reapers, and if not controlled could've controlled the Reapers, but could never actually do it, because in his indoctrinated mind he doesn't need to). At the end of the day, it's still a machine, trying to do what it was programmed to do.
But once again, once it decides that the cycles "won't work anymore" it continues harvesting. Not "is am imperfect solution" not "is only a temporary fix" but "will not work anymore." That speaks to a lack of flexibility I cannot credit to even a shackled AI, but to a being incapable of learning or adapting. A virtual intelligence, like Avina who, when confronted with something outside its programming, simply ignores it.
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