353 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

I'm glad we can get back to agreeing on this. Why are we actually trying to make sense of this bullshit again?

Because Bioware wanted an ending people would tak about.

 

WIsh granted 

[SwobyJ]

Tis a silly conflict.  It assumes that synthetics will at some point decide to kill all organics on a whim.  There is literally nothing that synthetics would gain from killing all organics.  It is possible that organics will attack, but if we assume a tech singularity will eventually exist, once the synthetics vastly overpower organics, organics will not attack out of fear, and at that point the synthetics will have no need to attack organics.  

 

The universe is big enough for the two of them, and synthetics will not be drawn into a war for resources or inhabitable planets because they can inhabit far more resource rich rocks than organics can due to the simple lack of needs for oxygen/water/etc.  Granted, at some point they might have no concern for organic life, but AI like EDI and the Geth has shown that they are certainly capable of emotions towards humans, which makes the arbitrary decision to destroy everything remote.

 

However, I think there is more danger if there is no tech singularity, and synthetics stay on a technological level similar to that of organics (as is the case with the Geth, possibly even the reapers as even they have not advanced much in the past billion years), then perhaps there is a danger that conflict will arise, and if the synthetics win, they might deem it the safer choice to cull organic life before it becomes a threat.

 

No, it assumes that synthetics will be programmed badly and that organics will not adjust to synthetics.

 

"You put it on yourselves." -Catalyst

 

The solution is the Cycle... until the solution is something like Synthesis. So yes, tech singularity and merging with machines. But the path there, in the MEU, is more complicated and difficult than the current IRL Singularity concept (LOL IMMORTAL BY 2045).

[SwobyJ]

I think the idea is that eventually AIs outgrow organic intelligence and sophistication and at some point organics become like animals to synthetics and like we human have ploughed through mother earth to make it our own so would synthetics treat us like animals and gain power. And yes, the Reapers are ironically that kind of synthetic creation themselves which had been intentional ever since Extended Cut but I'm 90% sure it wasn't intentionally so before the EC simply because of how the dialogue went about and how little emphasis was placed on it.

 

It's a classic sci-fi theme, one so classic and unoriginal at this point that I cringed when I saw it associated with the term "artistic vision" in Casey's message back when the controversy started. Watch the Matrix for instance. It's humanity vs machines and those machines are created by humans in 1999 and they ended up overtaking earth and harvesting humans to sustain themselves.

 

It's quite literally one of the biggest inspirations to the Reapers.

 

The ending is litterally The Matrix and the ending to Deus Ex in a blender and Mass Effect was nowhere in the recipe for this mix.

 

I'm sick of AI as monsters or at least super simplistic cartoons. Even when stories are, more and more, presenting us with a logic that 'hey maybe they're not bad or simple, or not as bad as we black/white view it, or have to put on a cartoon face to be friend with us'.

 

But I guess we'll keep getting that until we achieve our first 'true AIs'?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Funny. I see lots of folks look at the peace ending of Rannoch and say, "problem solved!" Also many people -- maybe even the same ones -- look at the galaxy and Reapers' coexistence in Blue and Green endings and think "Hmph, well that's never gonna last! Too much bad blood, uneven balance-of-power, etc." So, it's not that people are not capable of looking at things critically, they just, for some reason, do not do so when it comes to the outcome of Rannoch.


If you think something could go wrong in those endings, well, you've basically argued against the peace on Rannoch too...

[teh DRUMPf!!]

This idea of a tech-singularity is not limited to war/conflict with synthetic life, either. It could also involve things where some very powerful machines go haywire, or systems that we depend on simply glitching out. Hell, if one organic species uses cyberwarfare to wipe out a great number of other organics, that could even be seen as another example of machine outlasting organic life.

In fact, I am not sure one could even classify the war with the Reapers as a conventional conflict.

I would liken the Reaper harvest to human construction destroying an animal's habitat. The animals only see it as the destruction of their home. The humans may account for and even plan out the most efficient method for getting rid of it, but at the end of the day, that is far from the main objective at hand for them. The Reapers may see us as a threat and take measures against us, but their priority is the harvest, not our fight against them. They operate based on what is most efficient for harvesting, not for war. In short, the Reapers are not rivals, they are just... a big. They are building pancake houses, and we are the owls whose trees they are cutting down to make it.

[God]

Funny. I see lots of folks look at the peace ending of Rannoch and say, "problem solved!" Also many people -- maybe even the same ones -- look at the galaxy and Reapers' coexistence in Blue and Green endings and think "Hmph, well that's never gonna last! Too much bad blood, uneven balance-of-power, etc." So, it's not that people are not capable of looking at things critically, they just, for some reason, do not do so when it comes to the outcome of Rannoch.


If you think something could go wrong in those endings, well, you've basically argued against the peace on Rannoch too...

 

It's irrational dislike of the ending due to it not having the option to P/R interrupt the Catalyst and somehow magic the Reapers to death with a gun with the power of hero, then riding with the LI off into the sunset while everyone cheers.

 

IMO, peace on Rannoch is possible due to the nature of the Geth alone, not organics or synthetics. 

[shepskisaac]

Not sure why is this discussion even happening. As a character, especially pre-programmed AI, the Catalyst is entitled to believe whatever he wants. It doesn't have to be correct, it doesn't have to be incorrect. I still don't get why do people wish he admitted he was wrong. Javik repeats that synthetic vs organic conflict will always happen and tells you that he "questions the peace you've brokered. No such thing is possible between the organics and machines". Why can't the Catalyst do the same? His beliefes don't force the player to agree with him

[Deathsaurer]

The conflict exists because it was designed to exist. The story needed conflicts for the player to deal with so the races were designed in a way to spur on that conflict. Races in sci-fi tend to not make a lot of sense because if they did the plot wouldn't go anywhere. The Levithans were designed to be excessively arrogant and bigoted. Same with the Protheans. The Quarians were designed to be paranoid. And the Geth were designed to be isolationists that are very very bad at diplomacy. We're not dealing with real world logic here. We're dealing with plot necessities.

 

And Shepard is given the option to either go along with this irrational state or rejected it and prove it unnecessary.

[SwobyJ]

Funny. I see lots of folks look at the peace ending of Rannoch and say, "problem solved!" Also many people -- maybe even the same ones -- look at the galaxy and Reapers' coexistence in Blue and Green endings and think "Hmph, well that's never gonna last! Too much bad blood, uneven balance-of-power, etc." So, it's not that people are not capable of looking at things critically, they just, for some reason, do not do so when it comes to the outcome of Rannoch.


If you think something could go wrong in those endings, well, you've basically argued against the peace on Rannoch too...

 

I tend to think the synthetic+organic element will last (talking more Synthesis - Control is a status quo ranging from an eventual failure to an eventual success), but the state of peace will not. Even if the new state of war is an utterly unfamiliar one (other than to term it as 'war' of some sort).

 

If this was on the universe scale, I might think otherwise. But there's a whole unknown universe out there. One that I think a Post Destroy galaxy may be more innately ready for (though I also think a Post Control one is more equipped for, and Post Synthesis is more advanced for, so I'm not betting on automatic loss against challenges, just eventual).

 

I think the same for Rannoch. It doesn't disprove the Reaper's view of the cycles, though I do think Peace does more directly challenge it. Choosing Geth, respectively, challenges Reaper abilities more, and choosing Quarians, respectively, challenges the pure existence of the Reapers (+ add the Renegade Interrupt when talking to the Destroyer lol; though I never do that).

 

I gladly argue against the peace on Rannoch, though I picked it. I'm scared as hell sometimes for Quarians' suits being hacked, or a splinter faction of the Quarians eventually fomenting enough dissent against the Geth that drastic measures (though perhaps not as drastic as the initial Morning War) occur.

 

Though ME3 is Hope and Unity, and ultimately, I tend to think that Hope and Unity will be the Galaxy after ME3 (when taken Literally at least. Haha... me = crazyy). Just our Shepard decides what kind, and how much some entities and factions deserve to experience (or is even *able* to ensure some get to experience, in the Geth/Quarian/Peace case).

[SwobyJ]

Not sure why is this discussion even happening. As a character, especially pre-programmed AI, the Catalyst is entitled to believe whatever he wants. It doesn't have to be correct, it doesn't have to be incorrect. I still don't get why do people wish he admitted he was wrong. Javik repeats that synthetic vs organic conflict will always happen and tells you that he "questions the peace you've brokered. No such thing is possible between the organics and machines". Why can't the Catalyst do the same? His beliefes don't force the player to agree with him

 

I think many expected and wanted the last conversation to not be with the leader of the enemy and with Shepard very barely able to even barely strongly contest what he's being told by him.

 

A weak weak Shepard who must at least acknowledge (even if players don't) what he's being told by the bad guy. Has that ever really happened in Mass Effect?

 

It was a shift. In tone and a bunch of other things.

 

I don't necessarily hate it, but I highly sympathize with many of the sentiments and arguments against it.

[Iakus]

Funny. I see lots of folks look at the peace ending of Rannoch and say, "problem solved!" Also many people -- maybe even the same ones -- look at the galaxy and Reapers' coexistence in Blue and Green endings and think "Hmph, well that's never gonna last! Too much bad blood, uneven balance-of-power, etc." So, it's not that people are not capable of looking at things critically, they just, for some reason, do not do so when it comes to the outcome of Rannoch.


If you think something could go wrong in those endings, well, you've basically argued against the peace on Rannoch too...

Because the peace on Rannoch came when Shepard convinced the quarians to choose peace.

 

Control and Synthesis are imposed upon the galaxy.

[God]

Because the peace on Rannoch came when Shepard convinced the quarians to choose peace.

 

Control and Synthesis are imposed upon the galaxy.

 

Shepard really didn't convince the Quarians to choose peace.

 

He more or less just threatened them by telling them what was about to happen. In the paragon dialogue, he's just a bit nicer about it. Hell, in the entire context of the Rannoch ending, Shepard really is pro-Geth or pro-Quarian. For the peace ending, he's more or less just telling the Quarians that he sided with the Geth and is telling them that if they want to live, they'll stand down.

[SwobyJ]

Shepard really didn't convince the Quarians to choose peace.

 

He more or less just threatened them by telling them what was about to happen. In the paragon dialogue, he's just a bit nicer about it. Hell, in the entire context of the Rannoch ending, Shepard really is pro-Geth or pro-Quarian. For the peace ending, he's more or less just telling the Quarians that he sided with the Geth and is telling them that if they want to live, they'll stand down.

 

Agreed. He coerced or cajoled. He persuaded or threatened them, but he didn't convince them of anything. Very few Quarians, even the leaders, thought it was the right or correct thing to do, but the force of Shepard's role and personality worked on them, and THEN his words rung more clearly as time passed. The 'Peace' that happened is still a tenuous one until the ending, but the Geth are so effing 'happy' enough that they insist on getting close and snuggly in the Quarians' suits ASAP (ew lol).

 

But hmmm I'm not so sure about Peace. Shepard may side with the Geth here more in his logic, but he may be feeling close enough to the Quarians to care so much for their survival. He seems to be using his heart with the Quarians is all, but only sees a chance with Peace because of the exact situation he's in, and the logic he sees in the Geth side (that they do not necessarily mean harm on the Quarians, but largely just respond to them).

 

I think if he was truly only pro-Geth (or at least the Geth format that Legion seems to want), he'd allow the Quarians to be taken out of the misery for the sake of an upgraded Geth that won't be threatened by Quarians anymore. He's at least pro-Quarian enough in Peace to wish their survival, AND use the argument that the Geth don't want to fight the Quarians.

[TMA LIVE]

Shepard really didn't convince the Quarians to choose peace.

 

He more or less just threatened them by telling them what was about to happen. In the paragon dialogue, he's just a bit nicer about it. Hell, in the entire context of the Rannoch ending, Shepard really is pro-Geth or pro-Quarian. For the peace ending, he's more or less just telling the Quarians that he sided with the Geth and is telling them that if they want to live, they'll stand down.

 

Yeah, it's pretty much the same ending with the Reapers for either C or S. "Hey, we're cool now. We're not interested in destroying you. Just stop shooting us, or you're continuing the war for the sake of continuing the war, because you just want to die that badly and stuff."

[Arcian]

Of course there's going to be conflict between toasters and actual living things, especially when it concerns dwindling resources.

"Dwindling resources."

Hold your horses there, buddy.

There are hundreds of billions of stars, trillions of planets, hundreds of trillions of moons and countless quadrillions of asteroids in the Milky Way alone. Even if organics and synthetics each harvested an entire planet's worth of resources a day (an impossible feat in every respect), it would take them trillions of years to deplete the Milky Way of planetary resources. And they still have all moons and asteroids left!

[General TSAR]

"Dwindling resources."

Hold your horses there, buddy.

There are hundreds of billions of stars, trillions of planets, hundreds of trillions of moons and countless quadrillions of asteroids in the Milky Way alone. Even if organics and synthetics each harvested an entire planet's worth of resources a day (an impossible feat in every respect), it would take them trillions of years to deplete the Milky Way of planetary resources. And they still have all moons and asteroids left!

Still didn't stop the Krogan Rebellions, and yes I consider living space a resource. 

[Arcian]

Still didn't stop the Krogan Rebellions, and yes I consider living space a resource.

Not even living space is a dwindling resource, not with terraforming and habitation technology. You simply forget what the krogan are. They are belligerent and opportunistic. They are predisposed towards destruction and consumption, not creation and production. Why should a krogan go through the effort of developing a new colony when he can just take someone else's and force them out?

Humanity has already proven non-belligerent expansion into uncharted territories provides plenty of habitable worlds. In 30 years they've spread over a galactic chunk of territory greater than that of all other Citadel species put together. The krogan could easily have done the same. They just didn't care to.

[Valmar]

@Arcian

 

And yet those filthy suit-rats have the audacity to act like they're struggling for resources. Beggars and thieves, the whole lot of them.

[Iakus]

Agreed. He coerced or cajoled. He persuaded or threatened them, but he didn't convince them of anything. Very few Quarians, even the leaders, thought it was the right or correct thing to do, but the force of Shepard's role and personality worked on them, and THEN his words rung more clearly as time passed. The 'Peace' that happened is still a tenuous one until the ending, but the Geth are so effing 'happy' enough that they insist on getting close and snuggly in the Quarians' suits ASAP (ew lol).

 

But hmmm I'm not so sure about Peace. Shepard may side with the Geth here more in his logic, but he may be feeling close enough to the Quarians to care so much for their survival. He seems to be using his heart with the Quarians is all, but only sees a chance with Peace because of the exact situation he's in, and the logic he sees in the Geth side (that they do not necessarily mean harm on the Quarians, but largely just respond to them).

 

I think if he was truly only pro-Geth (or at least the Geth format that Legion seems to want), he'd allow the Quarians to be taken out of the misery for the sake of an upgraded Geth that won't be threatened by Quarians anymore. He's at least pro-Quarian enough in Peace to wish their survival, AND use the argument that the Geth don't want to fight the Quarians.

Yeah, the peace is tenuous, but it's there.  And the quarians chose to give it a try rather than the "death or glory" attack they were attempting.

 

The Geth don't want to fight you!  If you can believe that for just one minute, this war will be over.  You have a choice.  Please. Keelah Se'lai.

 

As opposed to "Ima gonna space magic the galaxy!"

[Iakus]

Not even living space is a dwindling resource, not with terraforming and habitation technology. You simply forget what the krogan are. They are belligerent and opportunistic. They are predisposed towards destruction and consumption, not creation and production. Why should a krogan go through the effort of developing a new colony when he can just take someone else's and force them out?

Humanity has already proven non-belligerent expansion into uncharted territories provides plenty of habitable worlds. In 30 years they've spread over a galactic chunk of territory greater than that of all other Citadel species put together. The krogan could easily have done the same. They just didn't care to.

Not to mention what syntheticcs are.  They're software, not hardware.  Their concept of "living space" is very different from an organic.  I mean, most of the geth live on servers.

[SwobyJ]

Yeah, the peace is tenuous, but it's there.  And the quarians chose to give it a try rather than the "death or glory" attack they were attempting.

 

The Geth don't want to fight you!  If you can believe that for just one minute, this war will be over.  You have a choice.  Please. Keelah Se'lai.

 

As opposed to "Ima gonna space magic the galaxy!"

 

Ok so pick Destroy or Control. Carry the memory of the Geth in Destroy, or preserve them in the galaxy in Control.

[Iakus]

Ok so pick Destroy or Control. Carry the memory of the Geth in Destroy, or preserve them in the galaxy in Control.

Control is, again imposing peace on teh galaxy.  Destroy renders any peace pointless.

[Pasquale1234]

Control is, again imposing peace on teh galaxy.

Be peaceful or I'll kill you. 

[GalacticWolf5]

Be peaceful or I'll kill you. 

 

A Renegade Shepard might work like this, but not a Paragon Shepard.

 

There's a big difference between both, that's why this ending has 2 versions.

[SwobyJ]

A Renegade Shepard might work like this, but not a Paragon Shepard.

 

There's a big difference between both, that's why this ending has 2 versions.

 

Paragon I'd wager would be more likely to just put out information that would pacify people more, and that's it. And that sounds terrible, but I'm talking along the lines of "Okay guys, here's the entire history of the krogan, everywhere, and modeled and told in a very easy to understand way, even for krogan. You gonna stop killing so many to expand now? Is everyone going to simmer?"

 

And then, if it gets so bad, he'll then have to use force. Like anyone would have to. Like the Turians had to.

 

I like to think, though it is never shown so its outright headcanon, that the whole 'Reapers get more understanding of organics over time, and organics become more and more cybernetic over time' bit of mine would lead to a Council-ish organization happening anyway, with Reapers the new level up of Spectres.

 

The Renegade path may go the other way though. Force to react to the problem first, but still sending out information instead of being a Reaper-Info-Hoarder. And less likely to have a Council, as to just stand as himself. I regard it the closest to TIM's plan.