165 réponses à ce sujet

[Caldari Ghost]

LOL. No. Just no.

Can't pierce any cover, that alone loses out to BW, Widow or Javelin. And damage against bosses is pathetic, because you can't score double or triple hits.

Non-infiltrator kits will generally have some sort of utility spell that makes up for the kishocks lack of piercing and anti-resists damage. For bosses, you bring a sidearm.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Non-infiltrator kits will generally have some sort of utility spell* that makes up for the kishocks lack of piercing and anti-resists damage. For bosses, you bring a sidearm.

*power, not spell pls.

 

Maybe we have Space Magic, but until Shepard can cast Crushing Prisons or summon Dremoras from the planes of Oblivion, they are powers.

[Caldari Ghost]

*power, not spell pls.

Maybe we have Space Magic, but until Shepard can cast Crushing Prisons or summon Dremoras from the planes of Oblivion, they are powers.

so when does space magic come in?

[Dunmer of Redoran]

so when does space magic come in?

All manner of Omni-powers and biotic-powers.

 

But they are powers and not spells because there are no wizards.

 

Although if I could play as a biotic salarian wizard with a cape, that would be nifty.

[Caldari Ghost]

All manner of Omni-powers and biotic-powers.

 

But they are powers and not spells because there are no wizards.

 

Although if I could play as a biotic salarian wizard with a cape, that would be nifty.

Like I'd trust anything a goat has to say in the first place.

[Pheabus2009]

Meh, the best sniper is hands down the CSR.

[lonerenforcer9]

Hands down. Once you go black...

Also the l2aim argument is invalid. What's better, not missing with the Javelin or not missing with the black widow?

The BW is forgiving if you miss, sure. But it's absolutely devastating if you don't.

[Pint]

Meh, the best sniper is hands down the CSR.

^

I like this guy.

[Darth Volus]

Non-infiltrator kits will generally have some sort of utility spell that makes up for the kishocks lack of piercing and anti-resists damage. For bosses, you bring a sidearm.

TSol for example can take a BW and still have 80% power recharge. And he can slap an HVB on a Javelin, Widow or BW and have no drawbacks in weight. He can wallbang an enemy boss like Atlases or Praetorians through 3 walls with Drill 3 or even AP IV and kill them in safety with doubkle hits. With Kishock you have to be in the line of fire and even the most thinest of cover will stop your bolts. Using it with RHA is tricky because the arrows often stick to the nearest corner. Also any decline and you will discharge your Kishock and have to charge again. 

 

Also most soldiers do not care about weight like Destroyer or GethSol. 

 

And you are not dependent on Phasics on the Javelin, W or BW. Disruptor does a great job too. 

[Deerber]

Also the l2aim argument is invalid. What's better, not missing with the Javelin or not missing with the black widow?

Not missing with the Javelin.

TSol for example can take a BW and still have 80% power recharge. And he can slap an HVB on a Javelin, Widow or BW and have no drawbacks in weight. He can wallbang an enemy boss like Atlases or Praetorians through 3 walls with Drill 3 or even AP IV and kill them in safety with doubkle hits. With Kishock you have to be in the line of fire and even the most thinest of cover will stop your bolts. Using it with RHA is tricky because the arrows often stick to the nearest corner. Also any decline and you will discharge your Kishock and have to charge again.

Also most soldiers do not care about weight like Destroyer or GethSol.

And you are not dependent on Phasics on the Javelin, W or BW. Disruptor does a great job too.

To be honest, if the kishock did 10 times the damage it does, and had ten times the magazine it has, it would still not be the best sniper rifle, even just because of that "little" detail of not piercing cover.

[LemurFromTheId]

To be honest, if the kishock did 10 times the damage it does, and had ten times the magazine it has, it would still not be the best sniper rifle, even just because of that "little" detail of not piercing cover.

 

That's a bit... extreme of an opinion, even for hyperbole. Javelin's penetration is absolutely a great thing to have, but with good positioning there's almost always something in sight you can shoot without any penetration.

 

To me, the lag issues are a much bigger deal than the lack of penetration.

[lonerenforcer9]

Not missing with the Javelin.
 

 

Overall damage output and the superior number of dead mooks the BW leaves in its wake say otherwise.

 

 

The question was redundant

 

 

 

 

It's sort of like the Wraith vs Claymore argument, except imagine that the Wraith has three shots per clip instead of two

[Deerber]

That's a bit... extreme of an opinion, even for hyperbole. Javelin's penetration is absolutely a great thing to have, but with good positioning there's almost always something in sight you can shoot without any penetration.

To me, the lag issues are a much bigger deal than the lack of penetration.

While that was clearly a hyperbole, it was meant to underline a concept which I believe to be very true, and which you probably do not, from what you said XD

In fact, I'm going to disagree on the fact that there's always something in sight to shoot. Whenever I play a kit with the javelin, I think a rough estimate of the percentage of shoots I make through any kind of cover is probably something like 33%. Which is far from being insignificant.

A sniper rifle, to me, *has* to be able to shoot through cover. A gun that's supposed to be good at long range, but cannot pierce *any* kind of cover? Lol, is it's gonna be a joke, in this game. Heck, I'm not even sure the kishock can pierce the foliage on jade! XD

The lag issues might be even worse, not sure. All I was saying is that even if you take those away, by saying you're hosting for example, the kishock still doesn't hold a candle to either the two widows or the javelin, even just for the penetration issue.

Overall damage output and the superior number of dead mooks the BW leaves in its wake say otherwise.

And who computed those numbers, exactly? Because whoever did it, did it wrong.

If it comes from personal experience, instead, then we can play together, and I'll show you that it's a wrong statement

As for the wraith vs claymore argument: no, it's not the same thing. Because, jokes and biases aside, and looking from an efficiency perspective only, the wraith *is* superior to the claymore, pretty much objectively. That's because (almost) everything the claymore does from a gameplay perspective, the wraith does better. So it's not really a question which gun is more powerful.

As far as Javelin vs BW goes, on the other hand, things are not so clearly cut, since not everything the Javelin does is done better by the BW. There is one thing that's done better by the Javelin, and it so happens that it's a *very* important thing. It is so important, that it rivals the importance of all the other advantages the BW has, put together. So much so that, in the end, which one you prefer is very far from being an objective matter, because some will think the advantage the Javelin has is bigger, others will think it's smaller. But anyone who says it's clearly cut is simply deeply underestimating the advantage of being able to shoot things through walls.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

The question was rhetorical. 

 

<<<<*grammarnazi moment*

[lonerenforcer9]

In fact, I'm going to disagree on the fact that there's always something in sight to shoot. Whenever I play a kit with the javelin, I think a rough estimate of the percentage of shoots I make through any kind of cover is probably something like 33%. Which is far from being insignificant.

A sniper rifle, to me, *has* to be able to shoot through cover. A gun that's supposed to be good at long range, but cannot pierce *any* kind of cover? Lol, is it's gonna be a joke, in this game...

...And who computed those numbers, exactly? Because whoever did it, did it wrong.

If it comes from personal experience, instead, then we can play together, and I'll show you that it's a wrong statement
 

 

Those numbers would be from both personal experience and rooted in fact according to Cyonan's calculations.

 

Also, 33% of your shots are made through cover? You and I snipe very differently.

 

 

 

As far as Javelin vs BW goes, on the other hand, things are not so clearly cut, since not everything the Javelin does is done better by the BW. There is one thing that's done better by the Javelin, and it so happens that it's a *very* important thing. It is so important, that it rivals the importance of all the other advantages the BW has, put together. So much so that, in the end, which one you prefer is very far from being an objective matter, because some will think the advantage the Javelin has is bigger, others will think it's smaller. But anyone who says it's clearly cut is simply deeply underestimating the advantage of being able to shoot things through walls.
 

 

Here's the way I see it:

 

Paparazzi: You mean to say, Mrs. Black Widow -

 

BW:  - It's "Ms." now.

 

Paparazzi: Sorry, "Ms." Black Widow, that you can kill a Banshee as fast or faster than the legendary Mr. Javelin?

 

BW: I certainly can, I can also kill three Marauders in the blink of an eye.

 

Paparazzi: Your sadistic reputation precedes you, Ms. Black Widow...but Mr. Javelin has done that too

 

BW: I heard he had to spend quite some time kiting them around before they "lined up" for him.

 

Paparazzi: Well yeah, but it was spectacular!

 

BW: Sounds like a lot of work to me.

 

 

Honestly, though, I do think the Javelin is an awesome gun. It hits incredibly hard and cover penetration is cool - and useful - to be sure.

 

I'm just having a hard time seeing where cover penetration (which the BW has too, btw) outdoes the ability to kill enemies faster.

[lonerenforcer9]

<<<<*grammarnazi moment*

Lol thanks

That's what I meant to type - I even reread my post after seeing this and still read it as "rhetorical."

I'll be sure to leave it just the way it is

[LemurFromTheId]

While that was clearly a hyperbole, it was meant to underline a concept which I believe to be very true, and which you probably do not, from what you said XD

In fact, I'm going to disagree on the fact that there's always something in sight to shoot. Whenever I play a kit with the javelin, I think a rough estimate of the percentage of shoots I make through any kind of cover is probably something like 33%. Which is far from being insignificant.

A sniper rifle, to me, *has* to be able to shoot through cover. A gun that's supposed to be good at long range, but cannot pierce *any* kind of cover? Lol, is it's gonna be a joke, in this game. Heck, I'm not even sure the kishock can pierce the foliage on jade! XD

The lag issues might be even worse, not sure. All I was saying is that even if you take those away, by saying you're hosting for example, the kishock still doesn't hold a candle to either the two widows or the javelin, even just for the penetration issue.

 

33% sounds like it could be a good estimate for me as well, but that's largely because it's so convenient to shoot through cover that there's just no need to move around as much. When talking about Kishock, this numer is meaningless, because you simply don't use it the same way you use Javelin.

 

Your point is curious, because when making the argument for A being better than B, you generally seem to be considering the ultimate potential of a weapon, not the potential it reaches in the hands of a good, "ordinary" player, as you're doing now. Yet Kishock's limitation of not being able to penetrate cover is largely mitigated by a player's skill of being able to maneuver and use positioning in such a way that there's something to shoot at - and I believe that when you master this skill, you have something to shoot at almost all the time.

[DemiserofD]

Why all this argument of BW vs Javelin when the CSR clearly outpaces them all? More DPS, no shieldgate, instant response time, unlimited ammo...*sighs dreamily*, the CSR really has it all.

[q5tyhj]

Best SR's in the game-

 

1. Crusader

2. GPS

3. Arc Pistol

[xelander]

"Best" is rather subjective term.

 

Generally I put the Kishock on non-sniper kits and Widow/Black Widow/Javelin on sniper kits. I know BW has technically more DPS than the Widow, but I like the latter more, perhaps for nostalgia reasons. And with proper reload-cancelling, penetration stacking  and good builds, it is beastly. I especially like it on the SI, much more than the BW.

 

As far as the Kishock goes, most casters have a stagger power, so even off-host stagger + headshot works very fine. You don't really need penetration (even for Guardians). The other thing about it is the high rate of fire and the stagger, which make it a very forgiving weapon. With casting powers in between and putting headshot after headshot (no winding up for more damage, just shoot as fast as possible), bosses go down quickly too. My favorite Kishock users are the SE, Slasher Adept and KroSent.

 

Also, harpooning phantrolls never gets old.

 

The CSR deserves a mention amongst the first tier sniper rifles, only insofar as to say that coupling it with Incendiary made it so OP, that I retired it from use.

 

 

Ceterum censeo Ceberum esse delendum.

[Aetika]

 

the CSR really has it all.

 

Yeah, except for range.

[NuclearTech76]

I still haven't seen a great sniper with the Javelin that can take three heads off of mooks in the same amount of time that a great sniper can take three heads off with the BW. BW is just a wee bit quicker versus mooks and similar versus bosses. Now if you need to shoot through a goddamn wall of concrete a few meters thick to kill a swarmer because it has pissed you off then yeah the Javelin is superior but everything else the BW is just a little better. In the end it doesn't matter though because it's all about what you personally use the best.

[7twozero]

Best SR's in the game-

1. Crusader
2. GPS
3. Arc Pistol

let's be friends

[Deerber]

Those numbers would be from both personal experience and rooted in fact according to Cyonan's calculations.

 

Also, 33% of your shots are made through cover? You and I snipe very differently.

 

------

 

I'm just having a hard time seeing where cover penetration (which the BW has too, btw) outdoes the ability to kill enemies faster.

 

Those "numbers" are not rooted much in facts, because you avoided accounting for the Javelin's biggest strenght, that is, being able to shoot when the BW can't. So do this: take your dps numbers, and cut the BW's by 20%, to simulate the Javelin's ability to shoot more. Who's doing more damage now?

 

And yes, while that number is obviously a rough estimate, I actually do shoot through cover a good amount of times. Remember that, since we were talking about the kishock, I gave an approximation of all the times I shoot through *any* sort of cover, even just shooting at corners for better RHA, or shooting through enemies themselves. That accounts for a lot of shots, for me.

 

About that last comment, the answer is the same I gave to your numbers above: how are you going to kill things faster than I am, if you can't shoot them at all? The point is not about the Javelin's superior penetration, which is made a lot less important by all the penetration mods - it's about its scope, which effectively allows you to wallbang anything, anywhere you can actually hit with your amount of penetration. Better yet, it tells you if you can hit it or not. It's pretty awesome And while the BW somewhat wallbangs too, it's limited to enemies whose position you can see - whether with your own eye, or with the scanner/HM/recon mine. And that is why the difference is also a lot kit and map dependant. On the DI, for example, that has recon mine and can spam it reasonably fast, the BW is without many doubts better. Same can be said if you play on a map like glacier, where the scanner is revealing pretty much any enemy you can shoot. But on something like... Say, Ghost? I, with a Javelin, can stay in one place (not that I'm going to, but still I could if I wanted to) and wallbang pretty much anything that appears anywhere on the map. Can you do the same with a BW? Nope. You're gonna have to go around to shoot, and you'll lose shot opportunities by doing so.

 

Besides, in all this discussion, we have not mentioned a slight, but important difference: the BW needs a headshot to get a OHK on shielded mooks (except on winfiltrators, and sometimes on them too), while the Javelin can kill anything by hitting their toe. And while with a good aim one can definitely make the BW faster at killing visible mooks than the Javelin is, you're gonna need an aimbot to get full leverage out of it and make the BW that 50% better at it that would come out of mere numbers.

 

33% sounds like it could be a good estimate for me as well, but that's largely because it's so convenient to shoot through cover that there's just no need to move around as much. When talking about Kishock, this numer is meaningless, because you simply don't use it the same way you use Javelin.

 

Your point is curious, because when making the argument for A being better than B, you generally seem to be considering the ultimate potential of a weapon, not the potential it reaches in the hands of a good, "ordinary" player, as you're doing now. Yet Kishock's limitation of not being able to penetrate cover is largely mitigated by a player's skill of being able to maneuver and use positioning in such a way that there's something to shoot at - and I believe that when you master this skill, you have something to shoot at almost all the time.

 

Yeah, I see your point, and I understand that. However, the reason why I didn't mention it is that... Even if you can go around it to some degree, by playing differently... How much do you think that will change? I mean, if you play differently and pay attention to it, I guess you could cut the number of shots you can't take in half... But that would still mean that you couldn't take one in five shots. And that's a huuuuge disadvantage, to me. So my question is: can you really play that differently, that you can prevent something like 90% of the situations when you need to shoot through cover? Well, to be honest, I don't have enough experience with the kishock to answer that question with certainty, but if you ask me... I don't think so. There are quite a bunch of times where you shoot through cover, or don't shoot at all. Do you think I'm wrong on this? I guess Slasher would have a better informed opinion than I have, or someone who likes to use the kishock a lot.

 

Furthermore, there's also this, somewhat minor, point: when you say you shoot through cover because it's more convenient... Well yeah, that means you *could* avoid shooting through cover in that situation, but that would be... Less convenient, duh! XD And that loss of convenience should be accounted for, as well. This is what I mean: If you see a nemesis taking cover, you go for the center of mass with the Javelin, if you want to maximize your killing chances. You *could* shoot that half head that pops out of cover, but how many times is that biatch going to roll/get out of cover just in time for you to miss? Another example: you're healthgated by a marauder, and you take soft cover. The bastard's coming after you and he'll be around the corner, ready to finish you off, soon. With a Javelin, you just wallbang him. If you had to avoid piercing cover... Yeah, I guess you could do it, but you'd face good chances of getting killed before you could take the shot, especially if you have some latency.

 

So what I mean is that, in general, if you wallhack in that certain situation, there's usually a reason for it. And while it would definitely be possible to go around many of them, that would often require its price too.

 

Why all this argument of BW vs Javelin when the CSR clearly outpaces them all? More DPS, no shieldgate, instant response time, unlimited ammo...*sighs dreamily*, the CSR really has it all.

 

Because most shotguns in this game have more range than that would-be sniper rifle. Litterally.

 

Best SR's in the game-

 

1. Crusader

2. GPS

3. Arc Pistol

 

You missed Claymore and Raider. MM is awesome, right?

 

Yes but can it shatter 3 Phantom skulls from across the map with one bullet? Nope.

 

QFMFT. Also Chino, since you seem to enjoy sniping a lot: have you tried Sniper Elite III? It's pretty good