136 réponses à ce sujet

[zambingo]

Merrill had a crisis of her own already, whether Hawke helped her thru it or aided her stumbling. Merrill could be in a good position to grasp that anyone can fall, that ability doesn't equal knowledge and wisdom is earned with experience. I would be surprised if Merrill couldn't process the reveal that the ancient elves were a troubled people.

[TheJediSaint]

To be perfectly honest,I doubt I'd like them in the first place if they weren't such.They seem to have had an edge and that's hardly boring.

They lacked the self-righteousness that makes the Dalish so insufferable.

[Vit246]

Oh boy this thread will end well. Quickly! Active the Bat-signal for lobselvith!

Found it fascinating. Still not gonna be judgemental. It just means the Dalish are missing details about their history and culture. I mean, they did lose it all from just two wars. And they've been forced to roam around for centuries. Thats gotta be hard for record-keeping.

[Lorien19]

They lacked the self-righteousness that makes the Dalish so insufferable.

Well,they appear to be twice as self-righteous as the Dalish will ever be(which I found rather amusing),but they had a really good reason to be so as they were an extremely powerful empire.Or perhaps they reached the point where they were just too old to care about pleasantries any more.

 

As for the Dalish I'd say that they're so divided at this point, that self-righteousness among other things, doesn't seem to characterize every clan that wanders around Thedas,clan Lavellan being a good example.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

As a historian, the reveal was not surprising for the simple reason many things we thought we knew about the past were shown to be utter bunk or skewed. 

 

As a Dalish, the reveal did shock my mage Lavellan but it only made his resolve to understand the world, learning from it in order to form his own identity that much stronger. 

 

I am fond of roleplaying individualistic characters so the reveals at the Temple of Mythal were great turning points and defining points for my character. 

[Gervaise]

The thing is it is not just the longing for a romanticised past that has held them back but in trying to recover it they very likely put themselves into a position whereby they lost the homeland they are named after.   Because they blamed the humans for the loss of Arlathan, their magical ability and their immortality, their priests (who became the Keepers) were teaching them they should cut themselves off from human contact and follow the ways of the old gods in order to hasten their return.   This last part never made much sense to me since either they were locked away or they weren't.   Still that was the basis for remembering the old ways.

 

Now a codex from a Chantry historian admits that the Exalted March on the Dales was probably more expansionism on the part of Orlais.   Nevertheless it is clear the Dalish did play their part.    Also it did seem strange that instead of adopting the religion of the prophet who called Shartan brother and was instrumental in ensuring his dream of a homeland became a reality, they promptly reverted to worshipping elven gods who had done nothing for them.     Now it transpires that instead of the rather benign figures of Dalish myth, the elven gods were themselves tyrants who destroyed themselves.     The best thing the Dalish can do for themselves is forget about the past and build their own future in the light of the world around them, learning from the human neighbours.   If they continue to cling to their romanticised view of the past and vain hopes for the future, they are simply in denial.  

 

I always thought the statement "we have seen human empires rise and fall" or words to that effect was patently ignoring the facts even before the latest reveal, since the only empire that seemed to have totally been lost to history was the Empire of the Elves.    Tevinter may be a shadow of its former self but is still hanging in there and so is Orlais.    So the Dalish waiting around for the humans to destroy themselves was never going to happen.

[Lorien19]

The thing is it is not just the longing for a romanticised past that has held them back but in trying to recover it they very likely put themselves into a position whereby they lost the homeland they are named after.   Because they blamed the humans for the loss of Arlathan, their magical ability and their immortality, their priests (who became the Keepers) were teaching them they should cut themselves off from human contact and follow the ways of the old gods in order to hasten their return.   This last part never made much sense to me since either they were locked away or they weren't.   Still that was the basis for remembering the old ways.

 

Now a codex from a Chantry historian admits that the Exalted March on the Dales was probably more expansionism on the part of Orlais.   Nevertheless it is clear the Dalish did play their part.    Also it did seem strange that instead of adopting the religion of the prophet who called Shartan brother and was instrumental in ensuring his dream of a homeland became a reality, they promptly reverted to worshipping elven gods who had done nothing for them.     Now it transpires that instead of the rather benign figures of Dalish myth, the elven gods were themselves tyrants who destroyed themselves.     The best thing the Dalish can do for themselves is forget about the past and build their own future in the light of the world around them, learning from the human neighbours.   If they continue to cling to their romanticised view of the past and vain hopes for the future, they are simply in denial.  

 

I always thought the statement "we have seen human empires rise and fall" or words to that effect was patently ignoring the facts even before the latest reveal, since the only empire that seemed to have totally been lost to history was the Empire of the Elves.    Tevinter may be a shadow of its former self but is still hanging in there and so is Orlais.    So the Dalish waiting around for the humans to destroy themselves was never going to happen.

I think we don't have enough information yet to make such claims (and by that I mean Mythal in particularly,since I agree with you about the rest of the panrheon).There are some interesting theories about Mythal and Andraste after all,but they're just that.But still I found it rather curious that the land Andraste gave to Shartan and the elves for their assistance were the Dales,also the location of Mythal's temple.

[DAOnut]

what triggers the elven tattoo dialog and who breaks the news?  I have had 2 playthroughs and just cant get it to fire.

[Nefla]

DA:I didn't change my opinion on mages, templars, or the Dalish. It did make the wardens look pants-on-head retarded though.

[Mikoto8472]

I think I read that you have to be a female elf Inquisitor in a romance with Solas and he'll tell you about the slave markings.

 

I've always felt that the Dalish clung too hard to their half-forgotten past. The old ways of the ancient Elves are gone long ago. They've crafted a new culture that's proud and unique to the modern Dalish Elves. The face tattooes are no longer slave markings. They ceased to be slave markings a long time ago. Now in the modern culture they're a proud sign of the Dales.

 

Of course the Dalish can, of course, keep researching their history and looking for fragments. They can even incorporate what they find into their new culture. But I think their main focus should be moving forward. Accept that Thedas is now a human-dominated world and that any progress for the Elves involves peace and understanding. A good way to start would be changing their minds about city elves and absorbing them into the clans. In turn the city elves would teach the Dalish how to handle humans.

 

But alas, it seems the writers are dead-set on keeping the Elves as they are.

[GT409]

what triggers the elven tattoo dialog and who breaks the news?  I have had 2 playthroughs and just cant get it to fire.

Spoiler

You have to reach the final romance scene with Solas. He says what vallaslin actually is, and offers to remove it.

[Raiil]

It 'proved' that the Dalish are just as prone to failure and foibles as every other race.

 

It also made me hate Solas more. But tbh I look for just about every excuse when it comes to Magic 8-ball elf.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

They lacked the self-righteousness that makes the Dalish so insufferable.

 

Lol, you're joking right? They were 10x worst. I played a Dalish Elf and they called me shem and inferior elf to them. At least Dalish Elf accept City elves into clans, these guys don't even care about any Elf that isn't 10,000 years old.

[DanteYoda]

The Dalish are just misinformed, my opinions on them never changed.

 

Poor writing is still poor writing..

 

Did kind of make me wonder what the point of the Dalish being through the whole Dragon Age franchise was though, very pointless..i guess they are just fluff..

[LobselVith8]

Mainly, what did you think about the revelation that the humans and Teventer did not destroy the elves, but instead the elves destroyed one another and that the facial markings were actually slave markings?

 

The revelation was that there was infighting that caused Elvhenan to start falling apart, but Tevinter took advantage of the chaos and enslaved the elves and finished by destroying their society.

 

Also, the inception of how vallaslin was utilized doesn't change that the People reappropriated vallaslin to mean something different after the fall of the Dales.

 

If you played Dalish Wardens/Inquisitors, how would they react? 

 

My Dalish mage, Revas, is a member of one of the remnants of the Dales, not Arlathan. He gained a greater understanding of his past, and wanted to know more about history that was lost due to centuries of slavery by the Imperium.

 

As Merrill mentioned, the People know they don't have the full picture, and have limitations on their knowledge; this is also reflected in Keeper Gisharel noting that the story about the fall of Arlathan is a "legend", and not indisputable fact. Keeper Hawen and his clan are willing to accept that they were wrong about the inception of the war between humans and elves in regards to the genesis of the war that lead to the fall of the Dales, and I doubt they would have trouble accepting this information; after all, even Clan Sabrae acknowledge that the ancient elves may have summoned Audacity, despite the Dalish prohibition against using magic that involves spirits.

[Vicious]

Dalish had an ideal version of their history in which someone else was responsible for all their ills and they lived in a utopia that'd exist to this day if not for those pesky humans.

 

 

I don't blame them. You see that sort of thing in the real world.

 

 

To be quite honest though, I really liked the reveal. It added depth both to the elves and the dalish themselves, and showed you why they have a chip on their shoulder - they've fought for their freedom from the beginning of their civilization, against themselves, against humans, even as their culture ebbs they still try to hold onto any vestige of it. it's tragic yet badass.

[Navasha]

I don't think the revelation would be all that earth-shattering to be honest.    You have to remember the kind of time that has past since then.   We are talking like 6000 years here.   

 

If it was suddenly discovered that some ancient civilization on Earth was radically different than believed, would it change much how people lived?    Solas himself said, that the Dalish aspire to Halamshiral, which was the second elven civilization that was eventually cast down by the Chantry.   This stuff at the Temple of Mythal happened to the ancient elves... and by ancient I mean ANCIENT!!!!!   As in thousands of years gone before even the Dales were an idea.

[LobselVith8]

The thing is it is not just the longing for a romanticised past that has held them back but in trying to recover it they very likely put themselves into a position whereby they lost the homeland they are named after.   Because they blamed the humans for the loss of Arlathan, their magical ability and their immortality, their priests (who became the Keepers) were teaching them they should cut themselves off from human contact and follow the ways of the old gods in order to hasten their return.   This last part never made much sense to me since either they were locked away or they weren't.   Still that was the basis for remembering the old ways.

 

I don't think it was romanticized by the Dalish; their own history acknowledges they know little about Arlathan or Elvhenan; it's why the fall of Arlathan is simply a "legend", and why they don't equate immortality or magical ability with perfection. Also, considering the Imperium enslaved the elves for centuries, I don't think that the infighting within Elvehanan changes what transpired afterward.

 

As for the Dales, it seemed like the elves simply wanted to follow their own path and their own gods, which ultimately became a problem when Drakon came to power in human lands and decided to create an empire under the worship of the Maker, followed by a series of Exalted Marches against his neighbors.

 

Still that was the basis for remembering the old ways.Now a codex from a Chantry historian admits that the Exalted March on the Dales was probably more expansionism on the part of Orlais.   Nevertheless it is clear the Dalish did play their part.

 

True, humans and elves played a part in the inception of the war, which is precisely why Keeper Hawen and the Dalish admit they were wrong to think only humans started the war.

 

Also it did seem strange that instead of adopting the religion of the prophet who called Shartan brother and was instrumental in ensuring his dream of a homeland became a reality, they promptly reverted to worshipping elven gods who had done nothing for them.     Now it transpires that instead of the rather benign figures of Dalish myth, the elven gods were themselves tyrants who destroyed themselves.

 

Why should the elves adopt the religion that Shartan did, which may have simply been a political move to solidify his alliance with Andraste? That's like saying that all the Andrastian elves who follow Inquisitor Lavellan should adopt the Dalish religion.

 

Also, I didn't realize Elgar'nan wrestling his father, the sun, and needing to be calmed down by Mythal was an example of being "benign"; we also have Merrill pointing out how vengeful Mythal can be as another example that the Dalish weren't under the assumption that the Creators were roses and rainbows. Merrill openly admits that the Dalish don't even know who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, leaving it open that the Creators could have struck the first blow.

 

The best thing the Dalish can do for themselves is forget about the past and build their own future in the light of the world around them, learning from the human neighbours.   If they continue to cling to their romanticised view of the past and vain hopes for the future, they are simply in denial.

 

Because that worked out so well for the Andrastian elves, right?

 

I always thought the statement "we have seen human empires rise and fall" or words to that effect was patently ignoring the facts even before the latest reveal, since the only empire that seemed to have totally been lost to history was the Empire of the Elves.    Tevinter may be a shadow of its former self but is still hanging in there and so is Orlais.    So the Dalish waiting around for the humans to destroy themselves was never going to happen.

 

I don't see why you think all the clans wanted that; the clans wouldn't have signed a treaty with the Grey Wardens if they all felt that way, and Clan Lavellan wouldn't have saved the humans of Wycome if that was the case. Keeper Gisharel may have felt that way at one point, but he also made an effort to teach others about the Dalish, including humans.

 

The Dalish way of life is a matter of survival because their religion was outlawed by the Chantry and they are targets of violence by humans, from human lords to lynch mobs, and even templars. Being nomadic is a difficult road they chose to maintain sovereignty over themselves, and to have the freedom to practice their religion.

[Ashagar]

Basically in the end the relations between dalish, city elves, and humans with both is extremely complex because of the diversity of all three groups and in the end the revelations don't really change much other than the elves' who care about such things can't blame Tevinter for destroying their great empire and Tevinter to their embarrassment can't claim they destroyed the mighty elven empire.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Basically in the end the relations between dalish, city elves, and humans with both is extremely complex because of the diversity of all three groups and in the end the revelations don't really change much other than the elves' who care about such things can't blame Tevinter for destroying their great empire and Tevinter to their embarrassment can't claim they destroyed the mighty elven empire.

The Dalish wouldn't accept the true history found in the temple, they'd continue to blame all their present problems on the "evil humans who destroyed their homeland twice" & i doubt Tevinter would accept being reduced to opportunistic scavengers either

[Steelcan]

iI see the usual suspects are out already

[TheJediSaint]

Lol, you're joking right? They were 10x worst. I played a Dalish Elf and they called me shem and inferior elf to them. At least Dalish Elf accept City elves into clans, these guys don't even care about any Elf that isn't 10,000 years old.

That's ethnocentrism, not self-righteousness.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish wouldn't accept the true history found in the temple, they'd continue to blame all their present problems on the "evil humans who destroyed their homeland twice" & i doubt Tevinter would accept being reduced to opportunistic scavengers either

 

Except this is disproven by previous examples: Sarel admitting that he was wrong about the Warden, Velanna admitting she was deceived about what happened to her people, and the Dalish accepting the information from the scroll found in the Dales about the inception of the war between the Dales and the Chantry.

[Addai]

As a historian, the reveal was not surprising for the simple reason many things we thought we knew about the past were shown to be utter bunk or skewed. 

 

As a Dalish, the reveal did shock my mage Lavellan but it only made his resolve to understand the world, learning from it in order to form his own identity that much stronger. 

 

I am fond of roleplaying individualistic characters so the reveals at the Temple of Mythal were great turning points and defining points for my character. 

This sums it up for me, as well. As a player, I was thrilled that we're actually finding out more about Arlathan and that elven lore was so central to the game story. Going in, I thought the main story was going to be a snoozer about the Chantry and mage-templar war. The fact that the story of Elvhenan darker and more complex than the conventional wisdom was not a surprise at all.

 

As for my Lavellan, as much as the revelations were a shock, I think all in all that she was thrilled, too. It opened up a lot of questions and a lot of pain, but as Flemeth said, the truth is a beginning, not an end. To know that one of the creators actually lives and is active is a huge thing, for instance. And as of yet, she doesn't even know that she took one by the ear.

[Ashagar]

To me perhaps the biggest stunning revelations in the series was the hissing wastes tombs and the primal thaig not that the elves destroyed themselves.

 

It just ran so counter to known dwarven lore, the concept that the primal dwarves apparently had gods who are forgotten by modern dwarves and that a paragon and his clan built a thaig on the service just ran completely counter to everything that was known about DA dwarves.

 

That the elves weakened and destroyed their own empire was unsurprising as empires are often brought down more by internal strife allowing their enemies to destroy them than outside threats alone.