136 réponses à ce sujet

[Elista]

I thought it was a good idea to make their history more complex and show that the ancient elves were flawed. My Lavellan was upset but not really surprised because she doesn't believe in perfect icons and lost paradises. She had to find the inner strenght to go on, knowing her people leave in lies and praise false gods. But in the end she was ok, because she had always felt that the Dalish should move forward and not linger in the past, that's exactly why she accepted to become the Inquisitor - to make a step in the "real" world and act for those she care about. She is the future, Abelas and his elves are the past, these revelations helped her turn the page.

[Dabrikishaw]

I was glad. Glad about the vallaslin being slave markings, glad about the Ancient elves being there own downfall.

[Neoideo]

The temple part was one of the best. We need more quests about them.

[ComedicSociopathy]

 

Me after finding out the vallaslin are slave markings. 

[Han Shot First]

That they are basically like neo-pagans or modern day Celts resurrecting a heavily romanticized view of their ancestors.

[zambingo]

Re: present day injustices to elves
*slavery
*no lands
*city based "concentrations"

The games repeatedly show us how horrible living with these conditions can be, but the games also repeatedly show us these injustices are not exclusive to elves.

This doesn't mean that the injustices aren't real, it doesn't mean the meek don't often require help. It means miseries are not exclusive to a race or region, contrary to what cultural "pride" would demand be insisted.

The games also give us examples of those that do not wallow in the circumstances of their birth or stations. Elves both Dalish and City have been shown to strive for, work and accomplish more. Dwarves too. As well as other examples across races.

It is harder to do in some regions, but it always seems to come down to acknowledging it can be better and then doing something about it. Entitlement gets no one anywhere, especially if Snarky Hawke is who they are looking to for help. ;-)

[Wrath_Of_Deadguy]

The Dalish are what they've always been: people trying to make sense out of a history that circumstance has prevented them from learning enough of to form a clear vision of.

 

It's an entirely realistic portrayal, right in line with the way real-life slaves, ex-slaves, and their descendants preserved slices and fragments of their native cultures through centuries of deprivation, ultimately turning those pieces into something entirely new (and no less valid- no culture is ever static; in these cases the blending and evolution of culture was accelerated by outside forces, but ultimately all cultures change such that their inheritors would not recognize their origins). Of course the Dalish don't have the first clue about what their ancestors were really about... how could they have? And since their history in the interim has been so full of misery, it also makes perfect sense that they'd have idealized it and tried to fit any new fragments they uncovered into that vision rather than looking at them objectively. They desperately needed something to hope for.

 

So... no, my opinion of the Dalish hasn't changed. I wish they weren't so cold towards their city-dwelling cousins, whose ways of coping with their troubled past are just as valid, but what they are trying to accomplish is ultimately a noble thing. Arlathan is just what Dalish culture has fixated on- I think that at least the Keepers probably understand that they will never see Arlathan rebuilt, and if they knew what that civilization truly was they would abhor it... but it was never really about Arlathan. It was about preserving a sense of cultural identity against a world that wanted to take it away from them, and someday carve out a place for themselves where they could heal and build anew. The end result could not have been a second Arlathan even if the Dalish had known the whole truth about their history.

 

It's sad... but it's meant to be. That the Dalish recovered as much as they did is remarkable, and what they are doing with that recovered knowledge has great potential (especially if Keepers like the one on the Exalted Plains in DAI are calling the shots- remember that when he found out that the Exalted March may have been in part provoked by the Dalish themselves, his reaction was not to deny but to attempt reconciliation).

[LobselVith8]

I felt pretty sad for them. It's not surprising that Arlathan had a sharp class imbalance - what society doesn't? I never figured the elves were perfect. But knowing that things they're really proud of, like vallaslin, their gods, their history is all stories and misunderstandings is pretty sad. They'd be better off trying to move on rather than clinging to a past they don't know anything about.

Elvhenan, Arlathan, immortality, the existence of the Creators and their subsequent imprisonment by Fen'Harel - the Dalish weren't wrong about everything. They didn't have the full picture, but even they admitted as much.

No one thought the Creators were all perfect or idyllic; Elgar'nan wrestled the sun and he needed to be calmed down by Mythal, while Merrill mentions Mythal's fury.

As for vallaslin, it was reappropriated after the fall of the Dales as a sign of defiance against surrendering their heritage, culture, and religion.

In regards to the prospect of "moving on", I'm glad that the Dalish don't surrender their culture and religion to the Chantry, and I respect that the People don't capitulate to live under human subjugation.

[Patchwork]

Elvhenan, Arlathan, immortality, the existence of the Creators and their subsequent imprisonment by Fen'Harel - the Dalish weren't wrong about everything. They didn't have the full picture, but even they admitted as much.

No one thought the Creators were all perfect or idyllic; Elgar'nan wrestled the sun and he needed to be calmed down by Mythal, while Merrill mentions Mythal's fury.

As for vallaslin, it was reappropriated after the fall of the Dales as a sign of defiance against surrendering their heritage, culture, and religion.

In regards to the prospect of "moving on", I'm glad that the Dalish don't surrender their culture and religion to the Chantry, and I respect that the People don't capitulate to live under human subjugation.

 

Not really on topic but one of the reasons I'd like to see more of the chasind tribes is that in theory they should face the same persecution and problems as the dalish. Minus slavery the history is remarkably similar and it would be interesting to explore that especially if we get to do it as an elf protag. 

[Ashagar]

I do respect the dalish for trying to preserve their culture though I also respect the city elves for holding to their own culture and beliefs in the face of both the dalish and humans, they are both proud people with close knit communities with complex relationships with each other and humans.

[Ashagar]

Not really on topic but one of the reasons I'd like to see more of the chasind tribes is that in theory they should face the same persecution and problems as the dalish. Minus slavery the history is remarkably similar and it would be interesting to explore that especially if we get to do it as an elf protag. 

 

I think that would be interesting as well the Avvar, the fog warriors or even if in Tevinter there are still followers of the original Neromenian/Tevinter beliefs about the maker instead of the newer Andrastian beliefs if only to see what differences there might be between the old beliefs and the chantries' beliefs.

[procutemeister]

My opinion of the Dalish themselves didn't change. I just really hope that one day, they can learn the truth about Arlathan, and then be able to accept it and make a better future for themselves. Also, more interaction with city elves. I want to see how it would go. 

[DanteYoda]

The sentinel Elves were one of the parts in DA I i really enjoyed to be honest, it was refreshing to see some new non human history added to the game, sadly it was over far to quickly..

[TK514]

As for vallaslin, it was reappropriated after the fall of the Dales as a sign of defiance against surrendering their heritage, culture, and religion.

In regards to the prospect of "moving on", I'm glad that the Dalish don't surrender their culture and religion to the Chantry, and I respect that the People don't capitulate to live under human subjugation.

 

Reappropriating requires that they knew the original meaning and intentionally adopted the symbols in order to change it.  The Dalish did not do that.  They guessed at what the markings signified, and were wrong.  Now that they have the knowledge of what the slave marks are, they can reappropriate if they so choose.

 

"Moving on" in no way implies surrendering their culture or living under humans.  It means not letting the past dominate their lives, and looking towards the future.  Fortunately, we've had hints, mostly in DA:I, that some Dalish are actually considering it.

[Antergaton]

Now that they have the knowledge of what the slave marks are, they can reappropriate if they so choose.

 

No they don't, we do but the Dalish as a wider community know nothing about it. Infact unless you play a Dalish quizzy, only the inquisition and the liar know. You think they are just going to go to all the Dalish clans one by one and tell them?

 

 

My views on the Dalish haven't changed, regardless of the true meanings of their tattoos, they are doing it out of respect of their gods, it's their choice. Time change and meanings of things change. Sadly Solas was too stubborn to see that. I also understand that the Elves fought themselves but how does that again affect the Dalish? Tevinter still battled them and still did a lot of damage. Plus one old temple does not mean the entire Tevinter History is ignored, don't you think history was recorded there as well? 2 sides of every story, you know.

[TK514]

This is a BioWare game.  When DA4 comes around, every Dalish in the world will have somehow been given this knowledge.

[Addai]

Reappropriating requires that they knew the original meaning and intentionally adopted the symbols in order to change it.  The Dalish did not do that.  They guessed at what the markings signified, and were wrong.  Now that they have the knowledge of what the slave marks are, they can reappropriate if they so choose.

We don't know that. At some point, they may very well have said "the only way to ensure our gods aren't forgotten is to inscribe their marks in our skin."

[Frybread76]

I think it's a great way to reverse the trope in the fantasy genre of elves as enlightened, peaceful, in-touch-with-nature, and wise.  In fact, the ancient elves were as much as if not more destructive and power-hungry than the humans.

 

In turn, this makes me feel somewhat sorry for the Dalish, since they're sporting slave tattoos and thinking their ancestors were superior to humans which, in turn, makes them feel superior to the current crop of humanity.  They'll have a very rude awakening in future installments, I think.

[TK514]

We don't know that. At some point, they may very well have said "the only way to ensure our gods aren't forgotten is to inscribe their marks in our skin."

 

So your counter is headcannon?  A 'maybe what if'?

[Addai]

So your counter is headcannon?  A 'maybe what if'?

Yes? So is yours, unless you've got some source on Dalish history I'm unaware of. Do share.

[MisterJB]

We don't know that. At some point, they may very well have said "the only way to ensure our gods aren't forgotten is to inscribe their marks in our skin."

Someone needs to teach these people about written words.

It would be easier to send spies peace summits if they didn't have their allegiances literally drawn on their faces.

[DAO MAdhatter]

Meh...

[LobselVith8]

I think it's a great way to reverse the trope in the fantasy genre of elves as enlightened, peaceful, in-touch-with-nature, and wise. In fact, the ancient elves were as much as if not more destructive and power-hungry than the humans.

It's hardly a trope anymore; diverse and flawed elves have been featured in other series for many years now; the Elder Scrolls is simply one example, and it also predates Dragon Age.

In turn, this makes me feel somewhat sorry for the Dalish, since they're sporting slave tattoos and thinking their ancestors were superior to humans which, in turn, makes them feel superior to the current crop of humanity.

You're conflating Arlathan vallaslin with Dalish vallaslin; as the elven Inquisitor can say, it means something different now.

Also, the story about Arlathan is explicitly noted as a "legend", not something that the People thought was indisputably true. They also didn't think the ancestors were perfect. Heck, they even considered the possibility that the Creators could have started the war against the Forgotten Ones.

They'll have a very rude awakening in future installments, I think.

Not really. The Dalish want the right to govern themselves, the freedom to follow their religion, and the liberty to pursue their culture; that's unlikely to change simply because they find out more about their distant ancestors.

[Addai]

Someone needs to teach these people about written words.

It would be easier to send spies peace summits if they didn't have their allegiances literally drawn on their faces.

Well, that's the funny thing that happens when there is an empire dedicated to eradicating every vestige of your culture.